re-chroming housings....
07-15-2008 | 08:24 PM
#3
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From: Augusta, Ga
Hmm, yea its a given its not just standard triple chrome, that wouldnt last a weekend. I figured it was the typical hard chrome (used on hydraulic cylinders most commonly). I will have to ask my plater (largest industrial plater on the east coast) and see what he thinks about it. He knows every type of plating there is, so I will find out if thats just a fancy term or if its the real deal. Thanks bro.
07-15-2008 | 10:22 PM
#5
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From: Augusta, Ga
But from what I have seen, its very similar to hard chrome plating. I see it wear,peel and flake...so it can be replated. Nickel is porous(the chrome in bumper chrome), but not as strong. Hard chromium is made for extreme wear, abrasion and I am sure with lubricant....it will work nicely in theory.
Edit, found the answer. Its hard chrome plating.
Hard Chrome Plating
Most people would not be very familiar with hard chrome plating. Hard chromium plating is chrome plating that has been applied as a fairly heavy coating (usually measured in thousandths of an inch) for wear resistance, lubricity, oil retention, and other 'wear' purposes. Some examples would be hydraulic cylinder rods, rollers, piston rings, mold surfaces, thread guides, gun bores, etc. 'Hard chrome' is not really harder than other chrome plating, it is called hard chromium because it is thick enough that a hardness measurement can be performed on it, whereas decorative chrome plating is onlt millionths of an inch thick and will break like an eggshell if a hardness test is conducted, so its hardness can't really be measured directly. Hard chrome plating is almost always applied to items that are made of steel, usually hardened steel. It is metallic in appearance but is not particularly reflective or decorative. There are variations even within hard chrome plating, with some of the coatings optimized to be especially porous for oil retention, etc.
Edit, found the answer. Its hard chrome plating.
Hard Chrome Plating
Most people would not be very familiar with hard chrome plating. Hard chromium plating is chrome plating that has been applied as a fairly heavy coating (usually measured in thousandths of an inch) for wear resistance, lubricity, oil retention, and other 'wear' purposes. Some examples would be hydraulic cylinder rods, rollers, piston rings, mold surfaces, thread guides, gun bores, etc. 'Hard chrome' is not really harder than other chrome plating, it is called hard chromium because it is thick enough that a hardness measurement can be performed on it, whereas decorative chrome plating is onlt millionths of an inch thick and will break like an eggshell if a hardness test is conducted, so its hardness can't really be measured directly. Hard chrome plating is almost always applied to items that are made of steel, usually hardened steel. It is metallic in appearance but is not particularly reflective or decorative. There are variations even within hard chrome plating, with some of the coatings optimized to be especially porous for oil retention, etc.
Last edited by Outkast187; 07-15-2008 at 10:27 PM.
07-15-2008 | 10:34 PM
#7
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From: Augusta, Ga
Ive yet to see anything to say its not plated, its the logical way to do it. I deal with this type of stuff on a daily basis. You couldnt press a paper thin sleeve into the housing, it wouldnt work. However, you could plate 1,000 an hour. The plating is porous, just like show chrome. Without a copper base, the show chrome will rust within a day. Mazda may have thrown some magical ideas out there, but I see nothing proving anything else. I say electronically strip the chrome, and replate to spec. If they didnt plate it, they should have.
Alright...
10A = The rotor housing was made of sand-cast aluminum plated with chrome
10A 1971 model = The die-cast rotor housing was now coated with a new process: The new Transplant Coating Process (TCP) featured sprayed-on steel which is then coated with chrome.
12A = In 1974, a new process was used to harden the rotor housing. The Sheet-metal Insert Process (SIP) used a sheet of steel much like a conventional piston engine cylinder liner with a chrome plated surface.
so yea....they are plated.
Alright...
10A = The rotor housing was made of sand-cast aluminum plated with chrome
10A 1971 model = The die-cast rotor housing was now coated with a new process: The new Transplant Coating Process (TCP) featured sprayed-on steel which is then coated with chrome.
12A = In 1974, a new process was used to harden the rotor housing. The Sheet-metal Insert Process (SIP) used a sheet of steel much like a conventional piston engine cylinder liner with a chrome plated surface.
so yea....they are plated.
Last edited by Outkast187; 07-15-2008 at 10:40 PM.
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DPQ (05-19-2022)
07-15-2008 | 10:44 PM
#9
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From: Augusta, Ga
What are you stupid? Its plated.
Without the technical crap describing it that has obviously confused everyone...
Its a housing with a "sleeve" pressed in, for the prescision size and durability....something a cast part is not. Then the sleeve is chrome plated. No special mazda sauce sprinkled on it. Simple hard chromium, aka hard chrome.
Without the technical crap describing it that has obviously confused everyone...
Its a housing with a "sleeve" pressed in, for the prescision size and durability....something a cast part is not. Then the sleeve is chrome plated. No special mazda sauce sprinkled on it. Simple hard chromium, aka hard chrome.
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DPQ (05-19-2022)
07-16-2008 | 12:08 AM
#13
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Joined: Jul 2008
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From: Augusta, Ga
lol, you guys are something else.
I hear alot of "no its not" and yet mazda, and every other source says it is.....lol, whatever.
So, wake me up when you prove its not plated.
1. MAZDA OEM
a. Mazda Hard Chrome
For wear protection, Mazda OEM rotor housings are hard chrome plated and the
cast iron end housings are soft gas nitrided. Mazda chose these processes in the
mid 1960’s as the best option available to them at the time. There are several
criteria that would have influenced Mazda’s choices at the time, including:
Performance: Specifically, that the coating or treatment must result in a motor
that will meet minimum performance criterion such as engine life and sealing
ability. Lets say for instance that Mazda’s engineers were required to produce
block components that could be operated within their allowed dimensional and
wear margins for 80,000 km, the chosen coating or treatments would have to
meet this minimum criterion in order to be considered.
Availability / Resources: Now remember, we are in the mid 1960’s! A major
consideration when choosing what kind of surface treatment to use is its
availability on the market now and in the future. Both Chrome and Soft Nitriding
were widely available and they were very commonly used in many industries.
These were hence safe choices as there was no sign that these well established,
refined processes would soon be replaced by others.
Cost: Cost is always the bottom line. This is true for Mazda in the 1960’s as well
(just as in any manufacturing facility). Recall, back then Mazda was a small
manufacturer taking a big chance on a new engine design. They could not afford
to spend huge sums of money on new technologies to develop this engine. They
needed to focus the monies spent on the real problem areas, not on re-inventing
the wheel. Hence, where possible they would rely on economical, proven
technologies such as chrome plating and gas nitriding.
Ironically, these types of decisions are not always the best and may have
become an Achilles heel for Mazda in the end. It is the opinion of the engineers
at JHB Performance that the cause of problems such as wear, chatter marks and
poor compression are due to the use of chrome plating. Mazda spend lots of time
and effort trying to alleviate these problems with alternative seal designs and
material compositions rather than attacking the root cause of the problem that we
feel is the chrome plating itself. Nonetheless, Mazda stuck with their huge capital
investment into hard chrome plating and invested over 30 years of development
time into trying to make this type of wear coating work in the rotary engine with
little success. This is not to say that Mazda did not achieve an engine with
moderate reliability, but to point out that their success would have been
compounded many times had they not stuck with chrome plating.
This thread fails? WTF? Go tighten up your cold air intake.
Soo, Dominion....if its not plated, what is it?
I hear alot of "no its not" and yet mazda, and every other source says it is.....lol, whatever.
So, wake me up when you prove its not plated.
1. MAZDA OEM
a. Mazda Hard Chrome
For wear protection, Mazda OEM rotor housings are hard chrome plated and the
cast iron end housings are soft gas nitrided. Mazda chose these processes in the
mid 1960’s as the best option available to them at the time. There are several
criteria that would have influenced Mazda’s choices at the time, including:
Performance: Specifically, that the coating or treatment must result in a motor
that will meet minimum performance criterion such as engine life and sealing
ability. Lets say for instance that Mazda’s engineers were required to produce
block components that could be operated within their allowed dimensional and
wear margins for 80,000 km, the chosen coating or treatments would have to
meet this minimum criterion in order to be considered.
Availability / Resources: Now remember, we are in the mid 1960’s! A major
consideration when choosing what kind of surface treatment to use is its
availability on the market now and in the future. Both Chrome and Soft Nitriding
were widely available and they were very commonly used in many industries.
These were hence safe choices as there was no sign that these well established,
refined processes would soon be replaced by others.
Cost: Cost is always the bottom line. This is true for Mazda in the 1960’s as well
(just as in any manufacturing facility). Recall, back then Mazda was a small
manufacturer taking a big chance on a new engine design. They could not afford
to spend huge sums of money on new technologies to develop this engine. They
needed to focus the monies spent on the real problem areas, not on re-inventing
the wheel. Hence, where possible they would rely on economical, proven
technologies such as chrome plating and gas nitriding.
Ironically, these types of decisions are not always the best and may have
become an Achilles heel for Mazda in the end. It is the opinion of the engineers
at JHB Performance that the cause of problems such as wear, chatter marks and
poor compression are due to the use of chrome plating. Mazda spend lots of time
and effort trying to alleviate these problems with alternative seal designs and
material compositions rather than attacking the root cause of the problem that we
feel is the chrome plating itself. Nonetheless, Mazda stuck with their huge capital
investment into hard chrome plating and invested over 30 years of development
time into trying to make this type of wear coating work in the rotary engine with
little success. This is not to say that Mazda did not achieve an engine with
moderate reliability, but to point out that their success would have been
compounded many times had they not stuck with chrome plating.
This thread fails? WTF? Go tighten up your cold air intake.
Soo, Dominion....if its not plated, what is it?
Last edited by Outkast187; 07-16-2008 at 12:17 AM.
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DPQ (05-19-2022)
07-16-2008 | 12:27 AM
#14
You are mighty selective when you quote - if you read further down the SAME DOCUMENT, to the Oil Retention paragraph, you will find the actual material description.
.....and it's not 'hard chrome'.
http://jhbperformance.com/downloads/jhb-tech01oem.pdf
S
.....and it's not 'hard chrome'.
http://jhbperformance.com/downloads/jhb-tech01oem.pdf
S
07-16-2008 | 12:31 AM
#15
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 251
Likes: 10
From: Augusta, Ga
thats the entire document, not sre where you got yours.
Search MAZDA's media and they even say hard chrome, aka chrome-molybdenum
plating. Without a shadow of a doubt, its hard chrome. Keep reading. They used several techiniques to improve oiling, while always using hard chrome plating. Its simply THE process to use, I dont know of anything better, and it looks like lil ole Mazda didnt either. I will take Mazda's word for it.
Search MAZDA's media and they even say hard chrome, aka chrome-molybdenum
plating. Without a shadow of a doubt, its hard chrome. Keep reading. They used several techiniques to improve oiling, while always using hard chrome plating. Its simply THE process to use, I dont know of anything better, and it looks like lil ole Mazda didnt either. I will take Mazda's word for it.
Last edited by Outkast187; 07-16-2008 at 12:43 AM.
07-16-2008 | 01:12 AM
#16
OK, hard chrome for you.
Just stick your fingers in your ears and sing "LaLaLaLa - I'm not listening!"
Take it over to Al's Overnight Plate'n'Go and slap a coat on, and stop bothering us with your strange chrome fetish.
S
Just stick your fingers in your ears and sing "LaLaLaLa - I'm not listening!"
Take it over to Al's Overnight Plate'n'Go and slap a coat on, and stop bothering us with your strange chrome fetish.
S
07-16-2008 | 01:30 AM
#17
lol, you guys are something else.
I hear alot of "no its not" and yet mazda, and every other source says it is.....lol, whatever.
So, wake me up when you prove its not plated.
1. MAZDA OEM
a. Mazda Hard Chrome
For wear protection, Mazda OEM rotor housings are hard chrome plated and the
cast iron end housings are soft gas nitrided. Mazda chose these processes in the
mid 1960’s as the best option available to them at the time. There are several
criteria that would have influenced Mazda’s choices at the time, including:
Performance: Specifically, that the coating or treatment must result in a motor
that will meet minimum performance criterion such as engine life and sealing
ability. Lets say for instance that Mazda’s engineers were required to produce
block components that could be operated within their allowed dimensional and
wear margins for 80,000 km, the chosen coating or treatments would have to
meet this minimum criterion in order to be considered.
Availability / Resources: Now remember, we are in the mid 1960’s! A major
consideration when choosing what kind of surface treatment to use is its
availability on the market now and in the future. Both Chrome and Soft Nitriding
were widely available and they were very commonly used in many industries.
These were hence safe choices as there was no sign that these well established,
refined processes would soon be replaced by others.
Cost: Cost is always the bottom line. This is true for Mazda in the 1960’s as well
(just as in any manufacturing facility). Recall, back then Mazda was a small
manufacturer taking a big chance on a new engine design. They could not afford
to spend huge sums of money on new technologies to develop this engine. They
needed to focus the monies spent on the real problem areas, not on re-inventing
the wheel. Hence, where possible they would rely on economical, proven
technologies such as chrome plating and gas nitriding.
Ironically, these types of decisions are not always the best and may have
become an Achilles heel for Mazda in the end. It is the opinion of the engineers
at JHB Performance that the cause of problems such as wear, chatter marks and
poor compression are due to the use of chrome plating. Mazda spend lots of time
and effort trying to alleviate these problems with alternative seal designs and
material compositions rather than attacking the root cause of the problem that we
feel is the chrome plating itself. Nonetheless, Mazda stuck with their huge capital
investment into hard chrome plating and invested over 30 years of development
time into trying to make this type of wear coating work in the rotary engine with
little success. This is not to say that Mazda did not achieve an engine with
moderate reliability, but to point out that their success would have been
compounded many times had they not stuck with chrome plating.
This thread fails? WTF? Go tighten up your cold air intake.
Soo, Dominion....if its not plated, what is it?
I hear alot of "no its not" and yet mazda, and every other source says it is.....lol, whatever.
So, wake me up when you prove its not plated.
1. MAZDA OEM
a. Mazda Hard Chrome
For wear protection, Mazda OEM rotor housings are hard chrome plated and the
cast iron end housings are soft gas nitrided. Mazda chose these processes in the
mid 1960’s as the best option available to them at the time. There are several
criteria that would have influenced Mazda’s choices at the time, including:
Performance: Specifically, that the coating or treatment must result in a motor
that will meet minimum performance criterion such as engine life and sealing
ability. Lets say for instance that Mazda’s engineers were required to produce
block components that could be operated within their allowed dimensional and
wear margins for 80,000 km, the chosen coating or treatments would have to
meet this minimum criterion in order to be considered.
Availability / Resources: Now remember, we are in the mid 1960’s! A major
consideration when choosing what kind of surface treatment to use is its
availability on the market now and in the future. Both Chrome and Soft Nitriding
were widely available and they were very commonly used in many industries.
These were hence safe choices as there was no sign that these well established,
refined processes would soon be replaced by others.
Cost: Cost is always the bottom line. This is true for Mazda in the 1960’s as well
(just as in any manufacturing facility). Recall, back then Mazda was a small
manufacturer taking a big chance on a new engine design. They could not afford
to spend huge sums of money on new technologies to develop this engine. They
needed to focus the monies spent on the real problem areas, not on re-inventing
the wheel. Hence, where possible they would rely on economical, proven
technologies such as chrome plating and gas nitriding.
Ironically, these types of decisions are not always the best and may have
become an Achilles heel for Mazda in the end. It is the opinion of the engineers
at JHB Performance that the cause of problems such as wear, chatter marks and
poor compression are due to the use of chrome plating. Mazda spend lots of time
and effort trying to alleviate these problems with alternative seal designs and
material compositions rather than attacking the root cause of the problem that we
feel is the chrome plating itself. Nonetheless, Mazda stuck with their huge capital
investment into hard chrome plating and invested over 30 years of development
time into trying to make this type of wear coating work in the rotary engine with
little success. This is not to say that Mazda did not achieve an engine with
moderate reliability, but to point out that their success would have been
compounded many times had they not stuck with chrome plating.
This thread fails? WTF? Go tighten up your cold air intake.
Soo, Dominion....if its not plated, what is it?
Dont you feel shame that a "cold air intake" guy knows better than you?
Get lost. you have failed.
by any chance were you dropped on your head as a baby?
Last edited by nycgps; 07-16-2008 at 01:34 AM.
07-16-2008 | 01:55 AM
#19
07-16-2008 | 09:04 AM
#22
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 251
Likes: 10
From: Augusta, Ga
Ok, lets say Mazda lied and didnt actually hard chrome plate the housings. What did they do? No one has came up with a single fact proving they didnt, and I have showed multiple sources showing it IS hard chrome plated.
They tried aluminum that was plated, it didnt stick well enough. Then they engineered a press in iron sleeve, since regular steel corroded(rusted) badly, which caused it to peel. The plated iron worked. They used a special honing process to make tiny grooves, which helped retain the oil. If you are gunna talk ****, get your **** straight.
The article states, their success would have been compounded had the not stuck with hard chrome plating. This is probably because the source of the article is trying to sell their own cermet process, implying that if mazda used the cermet process....they would have had better success. Since they didnt....THEY STUCK WITH HARD CHROME PLATING.
Till then, enjoy a nice warm glass of STFU.
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DPQ (05-19-2022)
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07-16-2008 | 11:26 AM
#24
Ahh, I just figured out the problem.
This is an RX-8 forum, not an RX-7 forum.
Last I checked, the Renesis didn't have peripheral exhaust ports.
I'll run out and take a look again, just to be sure.
This is an RX-8 forum, not an RX-7 forum.
Last I checked, the Renesis didn't have peripheral exhaust ports.
I'll run out and take a look again, just to be sure.
07-16-2008 | 11:35 AM
#25
well if is not hard chrome then what is it?
I know the chrome has several process's it goes through for lube, life expectancy purposes, but it is hard chrome.
Like the man says its chrome.
The process's are the fine definer.
I think it just costs too much to have them redone and the ones i know off too date reportedly do not last long.
I have long wondered about ceramics being used in there.
olddragger
I know the chrome has several process's it goes through for lube, life expectancy purposes, but it is hard chrome.
Like the man says its chrome.
The process's are the fine definer.
I think it just costs too much to have them redone and the ones i know off too date reportedly do not last long.
I have long wondered about ceramics being used in there.
olddragger