skc

I think a lot of stupidity amongs the young driver is due to peer preassure. This happens when mates get in the car and they decide to find out what the car can do.

skc

Gibbo

I am almost 30 and I have to say that I still do some silly things on the road, these silly things only endanger me, no one else. I never have passengers or do them on roads where there are other users. Mostly however they are done on track days.

Labrat, if you raise the minimum driving age then you will just get people maturing behind the wheel at an older age, people still will experiment regardless of how old they are (within reason of course). I am all for more detailed driving instruction and also random driving tests like tax audits. If you fail the test then you have to under go further instruction.
I am actually in favour of limiting car power for certain drivers, too often I get young drivers in a Skyline or WRX that has been worked try to race or try to show off when clearly they have no idea how to control a vehicle. Limiting the power of a car for drivers will reduce the tendancy to show off the performance of the vehicle. This is my opinion.

I think driving instruction as part of high school (like in the USA) is a great idea. You have to do this before getting your L plates. Then additionally passing a driving test before getting your L plates is also part of this high school program.

Personally if you want to slash the road toll there is one simple and fundamental method. 3 points and a $400.00 fine for not keeping left unless overtaking on all roads. Stops drivers taking silly risks and would also lower road rage.

mikeyr

Guys the minimum driving age here is 15. SO DAMN SCARY!

However, the gist of this thread is not debate on sensibility of the driving regulations in Aus, (I've actually had licences in all mainland states!..... I gotta get a life...)

However, the reg's although intellectually debatable are clear, so play outside and you take a risk...ie you know you are outside the law but you take a gamble...

Hate to be a wet blanket but the downside for the rest of us is that if someone who is in a vehicle which is outside their licence provisions is uninsured.

No argument...(am sure there is at least one legal eagle floating around in the forum, if I'm wrong I'll eat the humble pie, )

Ie you drive a vehcile for which you are not licenced then you are uninsured.

And Gibbo, i followed some tool doing 39k here for 2 km today and i agree, but different issue.

sco

Shame you just can't throw some bags of concrete in the boot to reduce the power to weight ratio (but get the benefit of better rear end traction)

Wildcard

Totally. Most stupidity that I see on the roads (and from time to time am guilty of) comes from this. MOVE OVER!!!

I'm not in favour of this sort of law. I hate it when the majority are penalised as a result of the actions of a minority of drivers.

P platers are an easy target, but there are a lot of bad drivers out there of all ages. Tougher liscencing and education are the real answers.

timbo

There's a interesting twist on this in the motorcycle world, where similar pwr:wt regulations apply (nationwide, I think). Some manufacturers (BMW is one I know) supply versions of their road bikes with power derated, for use by L and P platers. The bikes are then retuned after the ride has passed the qualifying period.

Perhaps we should see if Hymee or Canzoomer can developed a derated ECU

labrat

Taka, Gibbo, of course you are going to get 30, 40 and older drivers who are morons. But the fact is that 40% of road fatalities occur in the 18-25 age demographic. If you are going to have the biggest impact on the road toll, this is where you should be maximizing your efforts. The point of this latest research is that we are now learning why young people put themselves and others at risk on the road. When you know why, you have a hope of doing something about it.

Personally, I think that there is a certain proportion of the population (predominantly male) who should never be allowed a driver's licence because they are psychologically unsuited to the task. Think about it: the guy who seeks to project his masculinity by the way he drives a car (speed, aggression). The kid with a car full of mates who responds to their demands for thrills by taking risks. These are immature responses. By its very name, immaturity is predominant in the young, but there are many people who never grow out of these things. How do you keep the chronically and pathologically immature person off the road? How about psychological testing? This has become very sophisticated over the past 50 years or so, and it should be possible to design tests which would weed out those people who should never be allowed to drive a car.

By the way, I take issue with the notion that it's OK to do something dumb with your car as long as no one else is on the road or in the car with you. Someone is always hurt if you end up as a hunk of meat on Taka's slab - your parents, your mates, your girlfriend or wife, your kids, even the cops who have to look at the disgusting mess that once was you.

Lock & Load

Labrat

Glad you are in your laboratory and not in charge of running the licensing section for motorist , there would be no cars or drivers on the road , unless they met your exacting standards LOL

cheers
michael

Revolver

Labrat

You are trying to apply black and white standards to a world that lives in colour.

Your argument could be applied to many other activities (e.g. having kids). A lot of people occasionally (or even regularly) fall short of the standards of behaviour regarded as ideal. Is that a reason to ban them from the activity altogether!!??

Like it or not, the only way most people gain the kind of maturity you are talking about is partly through risk-taking. Maturity is not simply the product of the passing of years. It is what we do in those years that makes us wiser and more careful.

The trick is to provide enough instruction and monitoring to ensure that younger drivers have the skills and knowledge to live through that period.

timbo

Crikey, labrat, you're getting into some fairly controversial areas here

There's one other statistic that always frightens me: that there are an estimated 45,000 drivers out there on Australia's roads today, who are suffering from dementia! Yet the licence re-testing for over 80's is pretty mild, based on the experience of my father. And these (older) people get pretty sh!tty when they lose their licences and mobility...probably just as sh!tty as young bucks

It's dangerous ground to start limiting people's freedom based on stricter state controls. And driving is regarded as one of those freedoms. Psycho-testing is still a fairly inexact science...perhaps, drawing from George Orwell and Ken Kesey, it should be supported by appropriate drug therapy (there's sure to be a great drug to calm down any macho urges), or partial lobotomies, in the hardest cases! :p (damn, where is the tongue-in-cheek smiley?)

RXP33D

I am 19. Am i as disgraceful of a driver as you guys are putting it? I've seen some guy about 40 in a BA Falcon with his 6 year old son next to him, influencing me to hit the loud pedal at the lights. You old guys need to set a good example, honestly. :D

Revolver

We all do dumb things RXP33D. It's just that most of us do more of them when we're younger.

cwphoto

I think that law is fair. With all due respect, there are too many ********* here in NSW that are driving big power cars (modified WRXs, Skylines, Supras, etc) whom neither have the skill nor the maturity to handle it.

Granted, the RX-8 isn't a big power car - but you gotta draw the line somewhere.

FFS, when I was 18 there was no way I could afford these kinds of cars - me thinks the maturity of these blokes has got a lot to do with breeding...

king9

Was there Any indication of what might happen if you were caught driving your Rx8 agian?

auzoom

From what I see its more "in"-breeding

labrat

All I am saying is that if you have 40% of the road fatalities in the 18-25 age bracket, where are you going to put the primary emphasis? No other age demographic has such a high rate, even us demented oldies.

OK, I don't like anecdotal evidence, but last Saturday I was picking up some booze at the Liquor Superstore in Keperra. Group of young blokes (around 20-25) in the car park getting stuck into the beer, loud, staggering, pissed as newts. All got into their cars and drove off.

timbo

IMHO, the argument should come back to appropriate penalties and good policing, as opposed to the rather lazy form of law enforcement we actually get.

The law should be about really penalising dumb, stupid, dangerous behaviour...backed by a police program which, if not in reality, at least creates a strong perception of a high likelihood of getting caught for such behaviour.

Penalties? Confiscation of the driver's car for, say, a three month period for a first offence. Confiscation and sale for a second.

Policing? Well, nothing beats more patrols -- a more visible presence. But that's expensive, so perhaps detection and prosecution via more elaborate CCTV systems, especially in urban areas where cruises can often turn into something else.

Publicity? Nothing beats a good public flogging. Pictures, names and addresses.

I would prefer all of this to some odd form of law which discriminates on the basis of age and some arbitrary pwr/wt ratio -- the latter having nothing to do with behaviour -- I have seen young kids doing stupid things in Corollas, Lasers and ... (gasp) Excels!

Does it work? Well, I reckon the whole drink-driving campaign has significantly changed behaviour, across all age groups. Tough penalties, back by highly visible RBT

Revolver

I'd still prefer to see the money Timbo would like spent on more police, cameras, advertising, etc on better driver education and instruction.

timbo

Hey, don't get me wrong! I'm all for good education and instruction...but I'm not sure it will deter stupid behaviour

Wildcard

So what do you think will be the first thing these kids do once they get off their P's? Buy an even faster car with the money they saved after 3 years of driving an underpowered bomb, and make up for lost time.....

You wouldn't be on this forum unless you understood the pshyche behind owning a fast car and getting enjoyment from pushing it from time to time. People will find a way....

Hymee

iTrader: (1)

The answer is simple...

Just apply a similar system/regime to the one that Wildcard had to go through to fly his avatar.

Education and testing. I recall years ago there was an F111 pilot at Amberly who was 17.

Can someone explain to me the difference?

Cheers,
Hymee.

auzoom

timbo, I agree with you whole heartedly ... There are people who know when where and how (and how much) to push their cars. I am SICK to death of seeing people doing 60, 70, 80 + k's down a street that is barely wide enough to fit 2 cars side by side where there are always kids playing, doing burnouts at midnight, etc, etc. Where is the law enforcement? On the Main Rd/Freeway sipping coffee watching the camera tick over.

Where is the education and enforcement?

Andrew

ELITE-RX8

but limit P plate not to drive high power car is a way to help the death.

but......some how i think police should more check on who is doing it. but not always just gives out fine. some P plate just mod car. but they dirve slow. why they always get fines but not the one who drive fast,
that is what i think tho.

timbo

There was a thread in Ausrotary earlier this year about street racing after a couple of people died in Sydney. There was a lot of heat and smoke about the illegality of this and how unfair it was that society seemed to penalise people who just wanted to have 'fun'.

I pointed out that in fact society had been penalising people that just wanted to have 'fun' but created dangers for other in the process for some time; in fact, 'furious riding' (now 'driving') has been on the statute books for some time

In this context, I have been unsuccessful in finding a "Far Side" cartoon by Gary Larsen to post, which shows a group of young cowboys on horses around one young rider who has fallen off his horse, which is lying battered and broken after running into a tree. The caption is "So what are you going to tell your father?!"

I think the biggest issue that faces young drivers today is apathy.

Think about it. Centuries ago, those who wanted to indulge in 'furious riding' managed to organise themselves -- without internet forums -- to the extent that today, there are at least two race meetings within 50k of 95% of the Australian population at least twice a week (ok, I made the stat up, but I'll bet it's pretty close).

That's how society organises itself to meet otherwise conflicting goals.

The basic issue in relation to young people in cars gets touched upon, but no-one seems to want to take action to resolve, is the lack of facilities -- or perhaps even more accurately -- the lack of those willing to organise facilities -- so people can race in some safety, without endangering others. Anyone involved in car clubs knows how hard it is to find volunteers to run these things. So then it is left to commercial operators "who charge too much money"!

Revolver

Hymee

I'm no pilot but I would imagine the difference is as follows:

1. The aircraft is being operated in a serious environment without 3 half-pissed mates sitting in it expecting you to do burnouts or traffic light drags.

2. The pilot has benefited from some pretty intensive instruction and testing, while being told several times along the way how damn expensive his toy is to replace.

3. A pilot of that age would have the benefit of an older peer group and mature leadership.

4. There aren't many telegraph poles up there. :D :D