Lock & Load

Before you smart people tell me this belongs in the f#^@ing Lounge which is hardly ever read , please read this and honestly comment your thoughts i know most of you dont like or feel comfortable leaving your safe place but for once come out and add your thoughts .

What is the difference between a Terrorist and a Militant ??

When most of the worlds newspapers report an attack on British , American or Australian troops or civilians wether it be in Iraq or Afganisthan or on your home soil they are called Terrorists attacks , however when the Terrorist blow themselves to pieces in Israel they are reffered to as Militants .

SURELY IF IT LOOKS LIKE A DUCK WALKS AND TALKS LIKE A DUCK IT IS A DUCK ??

Yet most reports on attacks on western targets are labelled as Terrorism Example your September 911 and the recent bombings in London and yet the latest attacks on Israel in Netanya are called Militant yet they were carried out by a 18 year old suicide bomber killing 4 people and wounding 30 .

The attack on London is featured worldwide on TV and newspapers worldwide yet the continuos attacks on Israel get a thrid page small review both ON TV and the news .

Are so called Terrorist attacks more newsworthy than Militant attacks or is it that we care for one side more than the other ??

It seems to me that not all Ducks are the same double standards are part of the mess that the world sees itself in now .

B...free
michael

azzaboynt

Terrorists = opperating on foreign soil
Millitant = opperating on their own turf

Not to be confused with Army etc which is a force sent by an internationally recognised government.

During the vietnam war, the Vietcong were terrorists except in North Vietnam where they were millitants (and freedom fighters to their own countrymen) where NVA (north vietnamese army) was the official millitary force of the North. Both pretty much working for the same aim.

No excuse for ANYONE really to involve civilians.... on ANY side.

Lock & Load

[QUOTE=azzaboynt]Terrorists = opperating on foreign soil
Millitant = opperating on their own turf" Quote

The Suicide Bombers of the trains and bus in London were Brithish born locals according to the latest news reports and they were definetely named as Terrorists , they were definetely on their own Turf


B...free
michael

Richard Paul

iTrader: (5)

Man you could get me started on this but I don't type fast. This has been a bitch of mine for the longest time. How come the press doesn't seem to make much of the fact that those people live with this terror every day. You can't call the terriorsts militants saying it's their own turf. Was it their turf to start with? The press never tells you it was other countrys turf and there were no Palistinian there then. If Moses had turned the other way he would have found a little peice of property that had some oil under it.

Why do all the members of the UN get to vote except Israel?
Because of this they have developed one of the most effective armys in the world. Because of them there is some stability in the east.
Why is the liberal press so hot to accept people as Arafat as peace people. Hell they gave the guy the Nobel Peace prize!!

Glad you brought that up about the Brits you guys and us. This is the center of democrocy around the world since WWll. If you don't already know it, you guys get little credit in the world press. The men from Oz have always been there. I don't know enough about history to tell of the world during WWl but in the second war there was a brave bunch of guys with funny hats. Do they still have those hats? I can picture Wildcard with an outback hat on flying his FA-18 about 100 ft off the deck waving his fist and yelling something at the bad guys.

Back on topic though maybe the European countrys will wake up and realize that it can happen to them too. I don't know if that French Frog will ever worry about anything but lining his own pockets. How can a country keep electing a party that has the entire work force limited to 26 hour work week. If they didn't do that 1/3 of the country would be unemployed.
I still admire their wine and food and women. Not nessasaraily in that order.

Their not going to get any further with the British then they do with the Israel people. Remember Hitler bombed them every night for years only to get them more resolved. Funny thing the tube is where they all went for shelter, now their getting bombed down there.

On another note Europe and the Brits don't think of England to be part of Europe. You know it's not the Continent.

Only if the world sticks together in the war on terror can it be won.
The UN is nothing more then a big dinner club. I say throw them out we need the office space. Make them pay their parking tickets first.
When the No Koreans are on the Human Rights commission you know something is wrong. Hell Iraq was on it for awhile.

My finger is tired now, I'll go. (back to that "women" thread)

Lock & Load

Azzaboynt , Richard Paul ( thanks for your replies )
To me it seems that we only care about world attrocities when it directly effects our own , we have becomed accustomed and accepting of world events , bussily continuing with our own little lives paying our bills and taxes , hoping that the problem will go away or at least not affect us or our loved ones .

Genocide has been part of our world history look at the recent events 6000,000 MILLION JEWS MURDERED IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR.
2000,00O MILLION CAMBODIANS MURDERED .
8000 MUSLIMS MURDERED IN SZEBRENITSZA .
The many African hutus killed its continuing as i type .

Sometimes i feel ashamed of being part of this world , mankind can be extremely Good but it can be extremely evil beyond imagination .

B...free
michael

labrat

Hi Richard

A little info. about Aussies in WW1: We were there in 1914, it was called fighting for King and country in those days. An interesting anecdote is that when US troops were posted to the Western Front in 1917, they were initially placed under Australian command. The commanding general was a guy called John Monash, a citizen soldier who was an engineer by profession. He was the first guy to be able to integrate infantry, artillery, tanks and aircraft into a single battle plan. His tactics were much studied by the German general staff in the '30's and he can be called the inventor of the blitzkrieg.

Richard Paul

iTrader: (5)

Sorry to speak out of turn again but one more thing. We just might need Israel to take out the nucular facility in Iran soon like they did in Iraq back in '81. Who else has the *****? And the pilots.
Not to take anything away from our own flyboys but our countrys can't take the political heat. Israel doesn't give a ****, everyone hates them anyway. Plus they have the most to loose. Give Iran a nuke and they will for sure lobe it over that-a- way.

Hmmm, I wonder if the USA might loan the Israelies a couple of F-117's. I know they wouldn't let themhave B-2's. But the 117's will work just fine. Don't ya just love it, they only know the planes are there when they hear the bombs going off.

Richard Paul

iTrader: (5)

Engineers are great, huh. I'll remember that one as a defense of my kind.
But what about the hats? There has to be some history to that.

ILIV48

One of my closest family friends is a very devout Muslim. He is an extremely kind person and his family is so giving to others it makes most Christians/Catholics look selfish.

He and I were talking the other day about all this stuff and surprisingly he put a lot of the blame for London on their Muslim community. He thinks that on a whole most Muslim community's are not strict enough against these radicals. The example he put forward was at a lot of mosque's you will see normally a young idealist get up amongst the people and start preaching about the need to fight/kill the infidels etc. The response is typically nothing, nobody stops them or asks them to leave, they just let him spout on. Now if a Catholoic gets up at church and starts yelling death to all Muslims etc they will as a rule be removed or told to shut up. His behaviour is not tolerated!

His Mosque has had enough now and no longer tolerates any radical beliefs. Those who show extremism are asked to leave and if it is really extreme they now even report it to relevant authority's. Apparently one of the homes raided by asio here in Melbourne was someone that had previously been known to their community and was reported to authority's by them.

He is actually hopefull some change is in the wind now, that these extremists are starting to **** where they eat, the Muslim community as a whole might start to not look the other way and begin to tackle what he see's is a big problem head on.

One can only hope his attitude has a chance to spread. The only true way to combat terrorism is for all people to stand up and say enough is enough and take away the terrorists places of support and places to hide.

Revolver

Some interesting comments in this thread.

I'm especially interested in ILIV48's comments and wholeheartedly agree that the war on terror will not be solved with guns and bombs. As satisfying as it is to blow **** up, it rarely solves anything - especially when your enemy is not a discrete army sitting on a battlefield but is instead integrated into your own country and society.

The threat posed by extremists of any flavour can only be extinguished from within. Until muslims (and Jews) realise that radical or fundamentalist beliefs cannot be imposed by violence and are only hurting their own communities, the war on terror is here to stay. They need to stamp out the calls for violence and 'retribution' (whose turn is it today?) and proceed to actually live the lessons of their religion rather than distort them for base ends.

As to Lock's initial gripe concerning the allocation of tags to the perpetrators of aggressive acts against civilians, I'd suggest that most journalists are extremely lazy in their use of terminology. It is also a mistake to suggest that what is reported in the media necessarily reflects the concerns of the wider populace. For example, I know many people who continue to be horrified by what has happened in Burma in past decades but that rarely gets coverage. Indeed, if the opposition leader was not an attractive female and therefore a 'good screen image', we might not know about it at all.

Azzaboynt's definitions are pretty right in my view but I take Lock's point. The terms are often used interchangably. One term has a positive or at least neutral connotation while the other is pejorative. What's that old line - one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

The good old Macq Dictionary defines a militant (noun) as someone engaged in warfare or strife. Now we can get into semantics but I reckon the average person would believe that the Palestinians and Israelis have been engaged in a practical state of war and strife for many, many years now. The fact that the Israelis have the money to buy uniforms, guns, tanks and planes (gee thanks, Uncle Sam) and the Palestinians don't doesn't change the issue. As for 'turf' - I reckon you will get as many opinions as to who has the better claim over the occupied territories as there are people with the capacity to express themselves.

The same source defines a terrorist as one who uses or favours terrorising methods of resisting a government or of governing. The sickos in London were definitely resisting the British government's Islamic foreign policy but you could say that the Palestinian suicide bomber was also resisting Israel's government and occupation of the West Bank. You say tomato, I say tamato.

And I have to disagree with Richard Paul. The establishment and continued meddling with and by the state of Israel has been the single biggest destabilising world issue post WWII. Much as I like and respect Americans as a people, their leaders have often instituted foreign policy that is short-sighted and populist, with terrible results.

Some other things that have popped into my head:

1. The Christians picked the fight first. Richard the Lionheart's accession in 1189 was marked by England's first violent persecution of a minority in the name of religion - no, not muslims - Jews. Thousands of anti-Semitic atrocities were committed. Some Jews killed their wives and children and then themselves rather than be captured. Of course, it didn't hurt that killing them also expunged the debts raised by Jewish financing of warfare, etc. Which brings me to the next point. The muslims of Araby were largely minding their own business and indeed were quite tolerant of Christians and Jews until a bunch of vainglorious Christian knights, egged on by proud and venal priests, decided to go on that boy's own adventure - the Crusades.

2. If it is terrorists we want to get rid of, why are we only now going back into Afghanistan? Sure that old Yank stooge Saddam Hussein was worth getting rid of but could they have bungled it any worse? Meanwhile, Osama has been busy recruiting and growing more powerful. Duh!!

Here's hoping some sanity prevails before we all wake up with a bomb under our beds.

Revolver

You must be referring to the slouch hat RP. It was no more than a bushman style forage hat with the brim turned up on one side to make it easier to shoulder arms without knocking it off your head.

It remains a potent symbol of the Aussie digger for very good reason.

And thanks for your kind remarks concerning the contribution fighting Aussies have made to the resolution of various conflicts. You guys were just as appreciated from 1917 onwards in WWI and certainly in the Pacific in WWII - without you guys the Japanese would certainly have invaded our mainland in considerable force.

Our alliance is valuable to most of us - doesn't mean we have to agree with everything you do but...

azzaboynt

Lock, they may have been British nationals, however if they were still alive, I bet they would have identified themselves as something else.

Using religion to justify killing others is about as cowardly as you can get. Those who have done such acts are not only Muslims (can anyone remember the crusades? Or the northern Irish? The ****'s had god on their side right?) Religion, and what "God" wants has always been a catchcry for the vocal minority to lend credibility to the words and actions of hate. The first people to be silenced are the intelligent ones who may persuade otherwise.

Labels are just that, "labels". One group's freedom fighter is another group's terrorist / rebel faction / etc... It just depends on the perspective of the person naming them.

In ANY major religion, killing others will reserve you a spot in their version of hell. The Bible and the Quran say this quite plainly. It's when gross stupidity comes into play, and the idiot faction "reads between the lines" on what the "real" meaning is of the quite plainly worded text, that they get others to believe that killing people will reserve them a place in heaven.

All major religious texts state that you should be kind and friendly to your fellow humans, no mater their race, colour, social status or religion.

To put things into perspective, my Mum is Buddhist, my Dad is Anglican. They met in Vietnam during the war (Ironically a war based on Ideology not religion... Although it still killed a lot of my family members. Dead is dead). I went to a Roman Catholic school here in Sydney, and I am Muslim (a Sufi) to be exact. I have done a lot of reading :D

Just rambling on in my lunchtime here. Killing is wrong. Everybody should stop killing. NOW.

Callus as this may sound, but even the best democracy needs a "boogy man" to keep its citizens from descending into anarchy and chaos. The "muslim extremists" have Bush, Blair, and Howard to denounce, The US, UK, and Aust has the "muslim extremists" and the "Axis of Evil", The French have the world against them, etc... well you get my point.

Anybody ever read 1984 by George Orwell?

<end of rambling thoughts>

Edit: gotta learn to type faster. Revolver managed to outline most of what i have said :D

Lock & Load

Israel recently recieved 300 bunker busting bombs :D they are definetely earmarked for the nuclear facilities in Iran .

One of my best friends served as a Pilot in the Israely Airforce ,unfortunately they get real practice as opposed to other Airforces .

Whatever the Israelies get from America they improve to suit them and America benefits from their R&D.

B...free
michael

Revolver

I guess that makes us both 'goddamn liberals' Azza!! :D :D

Lock & Load

ILIV48
QUOTE"One of my closest family friends is a very devout Muslim. He is an extremely kind person and his family is so giving to others it makes most Christians/Catholics look selfish.

I also have Muslim , Arab , German Catholic Protestant Buddist friends , HOWEVER I NOW THAT GIVEN THE RIGHT CONDITIONS WE can all commit acts of terrorism , families life long friends , neighbours turned on each other during periods of war.

Some of leaders of these faiths and their Governments are the corrupt ones leading the individuals to war .

If one has to fight a enemy in order to save himself country and family thats understandable but to indiscrimanately kill civilians for no reason leads me to believe that the Devil is in control of these peoples minds and not their religion and God .

Thanks to all who have taken your time and responded .

B...free
michael

Revolver

Now that's something I definitely agree with.

Peace.

Revolver

Here you go Lock:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/m...934304962.html

Lock & Load

Revolver

Good article , the reality is that as the younger middle eastern youth here in Australia and else where try and find jobs and create a future for themselves and their families they are going to find it harder and harder to get acceptance within certain sections of the community , thus leading to disenchantment and possible terrorist acts .

Here in Queensland there is already a we and them mentality one of my younger Greek friends was told that they would only employ christian not heathons obviously the redneck tought he was middle eastern .

Isolation,+ less opportunities creates resentment , a middle eastern Doctor may find it harder to get placement in a job purely based on colour and religion .

Taka is lucky that so far we put up with Asians :p but if Pauline hanson would have had her way it may have been a different scenario .

Co existance between differing communities, religions is being truly tested .

B...free
michael

ILIV48

Don't worry about me lock, I am of the opinion these scum extremist should all be wiped off the face of the planet. There is no room for them anywhere.

My point was that they exist and operate as freely as they do because too many people turn a blind eye to them and their cause especially within their own community's.

Revolver

Lock

Part of the problem is sheer ignorance. The redneck you mentioned probably only knows what he hears on talk back radio and gossip down the pub. The closest these kind of people get to actual news is a skip through the news pages of a tabloid (probably looking for the page three girl) on the way to the form guide and/or maybe 10 minutes of Today Tonight or some other august program. They would much rather discriminate than perform the tedious task of informing themselves.

As for disenchantment, you're dead right. Visiting the sins of an extremist minority on the decent law abiding majority is to descend to the level of the terrorists. For mine, if you can catch one of these loonies, hang 'em by the ***** - but leave decent people alone. Otherwise, you just breed more loonies.

xxup

Lock..

Is there a story behind this story? What around you has triggered this thread?

Lock & Load

The current world news and my hatred for senless acts of violence against civilians .

Mans inability to learn from the past

Note to self must try the ostrich approach , keep head buried in sand switch of TV , do not read papers etc .

B...free
michael

xxup

That's not what I meant - I was wondering if you had been personally impacted by the London incident..

I agree with your sentiments..

My view is that terrorist/militant are just labels for a criminal.. These people are the lowest form of criminal and should be treated as such... They attempt to justify their crimes by attributing them to a religion (or against one).. The reality is that if there was no religion and one world, these people will still commit these forms of crimes..

My comments are directed to the masterminds of these acts - not to the simpletons who naively give up their lives after these masterminds use their smooth talk, promises of heavenly grandeur, money or whatever... In the end the mastermind increases their power and influence in the world - and the believer loses out!

I also bow to the professionalism of the intelligence community and the UK police - the speed at which they identified the bombers and at least one of the big players is astounding.. Well done..

EZZY

killing is wrong....

im sick and ried of all these crap, was worrying sick last thurdsay night for the 2nd time because i couldnt get hold of my gf in london, she takes centre line to work every morning....
first time was 911, she was supposed to be on one of the towers that week

killing is very wrong

Revolver

Man, I feel for you - that kind of worry is so bad.

Reminds me of that woman who was in the WTC the day before 9/11 and then got caught in the bombings in London!!!

I just hope they get the real people responsible - i.e. the evil twisted sickos who convince these vulnerable young men that the best way to heaven is via a detonator.