If it looks and walks like a Duck is it a Duck ???
07-14-2005, 07:30 AM
#26
Hmmmmmm.........
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On the actaul topic, are millitant and terrorist specifically used in opposition? They are words used to identify different purposes. To me there is no reason a person or group couldnt be a millitant terrorist.
On the issue of mass murder, terrorism, genocide, etc, I haven't seen any mention of the attrocities commited hundreds of years ago on Aboriginals in Australia by the British, in South America by the Spanish and in North America by the Americans.
<RANT>
On the issue of Iran, can someone explain to me why we have to "Take out their nuclear facility"? Is its so they dont produce WMD like Iraq were? Oh Oh....hang on...they didnt have any!!! But its ok...we will bomb first and apologise later and try and figure out why muslim extremists have a reason to want to bomb us back! RP this is not meant to be directed at you, I have heard this comment so often recently and not one person I questioned has bothered to ask why or investigate the legitimacy of the information.
Dont get me wrong, I am in no way approving what the gutless SOBs who bomb innocent civillians do, I am just sick and tired of narrow minded, "it was in the local tabloid so it must be true" world we live in. Go out and get a paper from Lebannon, Jordan, Isreal, Saudi Arabia USA, Australia, Indonesia, Malaysia and look at the differences in opinion on the same topics. Yet most people will only see, hear or read the one story on a single topic and take it as gospel. Take a look at the nightly news here on TV. Five major stations (2,7,9,10 and SBS) and I guarrante you that 4 of them will run 95% of their stories the same, almost word for word some nights. Why is this? because they all subscribe to the same News syndicates.
</RANT>
Sorry if I have offended people, its not my intention, I just want people to start questioning what they read and stop taking everything they read as gospel.
Andrew
On the issue of mass murder, terrorism, genocide, etc, I haven't seen any mention of the attrocities commited hundreds of years ago on Aboriginals in Australia by the British, in South America by the Spanish and in North America by the Americans.
<RANT>
On the issue of Iran, can someone explain to me why we have to "Take out their nuclear facility"? Is its so they dont produce WMD like Iraq were? Oh Oh....hang on...they didnt have any!!! But its ok...we will bomb first and apologise later and try and figure out why muslim extremists have a reason to want to bomb us back! RP this is not meant to be directed at you, I have heard this comment so often recently and not one person I questioned has bothered to ask why or investigate the legitimacy of the information.
Dont get me wrong, I am in no way approving what the gutless SOBs who bomb innocent civillians do, I am just sick and tired of narrow minded, "it was in the local tabloid so it must be true" world we live in. Go out and get a paper from Lebannon, Jordan, Isreal, Saudi Arabia USA, Australia, Indonesia, Malaysia and look at the differences in opinion on the same topics. Yet most people will only see, hear or read the one story on a single topic and take it as gospel. Take a look at the nightly news here on TV. Five major stations (2,7,9,10 and SBS) and I guarrante you that 4 of them will run 95% of their stories the same, almost word for word some nights. Why is this? because they all subscribe to the same News syndicates.
</RANT>
Sorry if I have offended people, its not my intention, I just want people to start questioning what they read and stop taking everything they read as gospel.
Andrew
07-14-2005, 05:46 PM
#30
Thanks Revolver for the history of the hat, I always wondered. In veit Nam there was an elite hilo company that called themselves calvery and had brimed hats kinda like the mounted riders of yor did.
Now, about the Israelies fighting their war. Is it your thought that they should turn the other cheek? Is it the same for them to attack the terrorest as it is for the Palistinians to blow up a cafe full of kids? You say they can't afford uniforms etc, uncle Sam gives them plenty of money too. They just send it off to privite bank accounts in Swiss or offshore banks. Again when do they stand up to the Isrealy army? Not, they are just cowards and strike woman and children.
As to Iran, can you possably think that they are building that nuke facility because they need to conserve oil? Yes it is true gasoline is up to .21 cents a gallon there for premium. Bet you wouldn't mind the gas milage of your 8 over there. What are they enrichining plutonium for? What is the deep underground facilitys for. Why aren't they declaring that it is there. You think the UN is going to control them? You think the UN is going to go in there and find it?
If thiose guys have nuke matirial don't you think the bonbers in London next time will be nuclear. Even just a crude "dirty bomb" where they just add the radioactive material to conventional explosives. BTW lets see that trail wereby they got the explosives into England. I heard it once and don't remember exactly what it was but lets look at it.
Good point LOck, they do improve our stuff and sometimes I'm not sure they share it all. We are just so stupid sometimes, the F-15 was deliverd to them and the first thing they did was go to the auto parts store and buy some rear veiw mirrors. Seeing this good idea it only took two years for us to get rear veiw mirrors with all the approvals nessasary to install on our own planes.
My good freind the late Dave Zeuschel was over there a lot working with their Air Force and he had nothing but good things to say of them. He was very impressed with the amount of threat they lived with. I also have some insight from a good freind of my ex wiife who had a brother in the Israel secret service. He had been captured and tortured for weeks. Funny thing about it was that the US CIA tiped them off as to where he was being held. They had him back in three days. Then it took a year to rehabilitat the poor bloke.
Next time someone takes out your team at the Olympics see how you react. Wanna write it off to getting along?
Just so we all get along here in this forum I'll say that we all agree on the basic fact and what must be done. So who is going to give us control??
I should take a typing class.
Now, about the Israelies fighting their war. Is it your thought that they should turn the other cheek? Is it the same for them to attack the terrorest as it is for the Palistinians to blow up a cafe full of kids? You say they can't afford uniforms etc, uncle Sam gives them plenty of money too. They just send it off to privite bank accounts in Swiss or offshore banks. Again when do they stand up to the Isrealy army? Not, they are just cowards and strike woman and children.
As to Iran, can you possably think that they are building that nuke facility because they need to conserve oil? Yes it is true gasoline is up to .21 cents a gallon there for premium. Bet you wouldn't mind the gas milage of your 8 over there. What are they enrichining plutonium for? What is the deep underground facilitys for. Why aren't they declaring that it is there. You think the UN is going to control them? You think the UN is going to go in there and find it?
If thiose guys have nuke matirial don't you think the bonbers in London next time will be nuclear. Even just a crude "dirty bomb" where they just add the radioactive material to conventional explosives. BTW lets see that trail wereby they got the explosives into England. I heard it once and don't remember exactly what it was but lets look at it.
Good point LOck, they do improve our stuff and sometimes I'm not sure they share it all. We are just so stupid sometimes, the F-15 was deliverd to them and the first thing they did was go to the auto parts store and buy some rear veiw mirrors. Seeing this good idea it only took two years for us to get rear veiw mirrors with all the approvals nessasary to install on our own planes.
My good freind the late Dave Zeuschel was over there a lot working with their Air Force and he had nothing but good things to say of them. He was very impressed with the amount of threat they lived with. I also have some insight from a good freind of my ex wiife who had a brother in the Israel secret service. He had been captured and tortured for weeks. Funny thing about it was that the US CIA tiped them off as to where he was being held. They had him back in three days. Then it took a year to rehabilitat the poor bloke.
Next time someone takes out your team at the Olympics see how you react. Wanna write it off to getting along?
Just so we all get along here in this forum I'll say that we all agree on the basic fact and what must be done. So who is going to give us control??
I should take a typing class.
07-14-2005, 07:05 PM
#31
Shootin' from the hip
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RP, firstly I share your intention that we all get along on the forum. I see this thread as a mature exchange of ideas rather than personal attacks or anything like that. Let's keep that good spirit going. 
I'm not suggesting that the Israelis 'turn the other cheek' but this 'eye for an eye' stuff (wrong religion I know) is not really getting them anywhere either is it? And spare me the women and children stuff - there's been enough footage of Israeli tank crews using Palestinian kids as target practice to demonstrate that both sides have been guilty of unspeakable atrocities - war does that to people. Governments will always try and sanitise it for history purposes but the truth always comes out eventually - e.g. the Germans weren't the only ones raping women in Europe during WWII.
As for standing up to the Israeli army - give me a break! What do you think they're going to do - pick up their grenade launchers en masse and wade in like John Wayne - the Israeli jets and artillery would massacre them! Like it or not they are fighting their war the only way they know how. They will not stop until a way is found for both races to share the holy land equitably. If anything, Israel is a classic example of the difficulty of manufacturing a sovereign state by force of arms alone.
You have obviously been impressed with reports from your friends who have visited and served in Israel. However, perhaps you should appreciate that they are not the only brave ones living in that part of the world, whichever side you personally back.
I also find it extraordinary that America has decided that only Western powers are entitled to nuclear facilities. By what God-given right or otherwise do Americans (or anyone else for that matter) assert authority over a sovereign state like Iran? And don't tell me that Iran is a threat. If it is, it is a threat created by the USA's pathetic foreign policies of the 60s and 70s. Remember that little bun fight between Iraq and Iran all those years ago. Who was it again pouring money and arms into Iraq? Good old Uncle Sam.
Oh, and let's not forget that only one country has used nuclear weapons in anger!
The western world is reaping the harvest of it's ham fisted attempts to control the world's oil supply. I mean, have you stopped to think just what was behind the birth of organisations like al Quaeda? I know it's easy to believe that they just sprang from the devil's loins and all that kind of crap but that is just the kind of simplistic dogma your leaders want you to believe. Far easier to believe that all of these people are madman that cannot be appeased - makes it a lot easier to rationalise sending the bombers in doesn't it? Okay, some of them probably are nutters but there are also a hell of a lot of them who believe they have legitimate cause. Ever wondered why that is?
Now I'm not supporting for one minute awful actions like 9/11 or the recent horrors in London - there is never any excuse for that. But unless the West looks at it's past actions with a more critical eye and takes steps to understand what is really motivating these people, we are doomed to a long and bitter struggle.
I'm not suggesting that the Israelis 'turn the other cheek' but this 'eye for an eye' stuff (wrong religion I know) is not really getting them anywhere either is it? And spare me the women and children stuff - there's been enough footage of Israeli tank crews using Palestinian kids as target practice to demonstrate that both sides have been guilty of unspeakable atrocities - war does that to people. Governments will always try and sanitise it for history purposes but the truth always comes out eventually - e.g. the Germans weren't the only ones raping women in Europe during WWII.
As for standing up to the Israeli army - give me a break! What do you think they're going to do - pick up their grenade launchers en masse and wade in like John Wayne - the Israeli jets and artillery would massacre them! Like it or not they are fighting their war the only way they know how. They will not stop until a way is found for both races to share the holy land equitably. If anything, Israel is a classic example of the difficulty of manufacturing a sovereign state by force of arms alone.
You have obviously been impressed with reports from your friends who have visited and served in Israel. However, perhaps you should appreciate that they are not the only brave ones living in that part of the world, whichever side you personally back.
I also find it extraordinary that America has decided that only Western powers are entitled to nuclear facilities. By what God-given right or otherwise do Americans (or anyone else for that matter) assert authority over a sovereign state like Iran? And don't tell me that Iran is a threat. If it is, it is a threat created by the USA's pathetic foreign policies of the 60s and 70s. Remember that little bun fight between Iraq and Iran all those years ago. Who was it again pouring money and arms into Iraq? Good old Uncle Sam.
Oh, and let's not forget that only one country has used nuclear weapons in anger!
The western world is reaping the harvest of it's ham fisted attempts to control the world's oil supply. I mean, have you stopped to think just what was behind the birth of organisations like al Quaeda? I know it's easy to believe that they just sprang from the devil's loins and all that kind of crap but that is just the kind of simplistic dogma your leaders want you to believe. Far easier to believe that all of these people are madman that cannot be appeased - makes it a lot easier to rationalise sending the bombers in doesn't it? Okay, some of them probably are nutters but there are also a hell of a lot of them who believe they have legitimate cause. Ever wondered why that is?
Now I'm not supporting for one minute awful actions like 9/11 or the recent horrors in London - there is never any excuse for that. But unless the West looks at it's past actions with a more critical eye and takes steps to understand what is really motivating these people, we are doomed to a long and bitter struggle.
07-14-2005, 10:31 PM
#32
Hmmmmmm.........
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I unfortunately dont have time to read your posts in full yet but I have scanned and want to add something quickly.
We are already being told that there will be no Fossil Fuels by...what was it... 2030 or something like that. Why is it so unreasonable that Iran could want to move to Nuclear power to replace fossil Fuel power? Sure they are rich in Oil, but what if they are also rich in whatever is needed in nuclear power plants?
What would happen if Australia wanted to build a nuclear power plant? Or NZ or even Fiji!
Andrew
We are already being told that there will be no Fossil Fuels by...what was it... 2030 or something like that. Why is it so unreasonable that Iran could want to move to Nuclear power to replace fossil Fuel power? Sure they are rich in Oil, but what if they are also rich in whatever is needed in nuclear power plants?
What would happen if Australia wanted to build a nuclear power plant? Or NZ or even Fiji!
Andrew
07-14-2005, 11:03 PM
#33
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Andrew
Would you trust countries like Iran, libya , iraq with nuclear powers
, i sure as hell dont love all of what the western alliance is all about , however i rather let them have the upper hand and live in their world than in a Muslim / middle eastern tyranical dominated world.
You would be killed just for belonging to a forum and expressing your ideas .
B...free
michael
Would you trust countries like Iran, libya , iraq with nuclear powers
, i sure as hell dont love all of what the western alliance is all about , however i rather let them have the upper hand and live in their world than in a Muslim / middle eastern tyranical dominated world.You would be killed just for belonging to a forum and expressing your ideas .
B...free
michael
07-15-2005, 12:21 AM
#34
Hmmmmmm.........
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Lock, a hell of a lot of people, including the powers that be of the western alliance didnt agree with Frances testing of Nuclear bombs in mururoa atoll and you cant tell me that was an appropriate use of nuclear power. So why didnt they get the crap bombed out of them?
Andrew
Andrew
07-15-2005, 12:30 AM
#35
Originally Posted by Lock & Load
Andrew
Would you trust countries like Iran, libya , iraq with nuclear powers , i sure as hell dont love all of what the western alliance is all about , however i rather let them have the upper hand and live in their world than in a Muslim / middle eastern tyranical dominated world.
You would be killed just for belonging to a forum and expressing your ideas .
B...free
michael
Would you trust countries like Iran, libya , iraq with nuclear powers
, i sure as hell dont love all of what the western alliance is all about , however i rather let them have the upper hand and live in their world than in a Muslim / middle eastern tyranical dominated world.You would be killed just for belonging to a forum and expressing your ideas .
B...free
michael
That's right, you just dare to sign on to this forum and lightning will come through your keyboard and strike you dead.
But for real, Locks first comments are right on.
07-15-2005, 12:32 AM
#36
Originally Posted by auzoom
Lock, a hell of a lot of people, including the powers that be of the western alliance didnt agree with Frances testing of Nuclear bombs in mururoa atoll and you cant tell me that was an appropriate use of nuclear power. So why didnt they get the crap bombed out of them?
Andrew
Andrew
It would ruin all the grape vines and there would be no Cognac.
Last edited by Richard Paul; 07-15-2005 at 12:45 AM.
07-15-2005, 12:44 AM
#37
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Originally Posted by auzoom
Lock, a hell of a lot of people, including the powers that be of the western alliance didnt agree with Frances testing of Nuclear bombs in mururoa atoll and you cant tell me that was an appropriate use of nuclear power. So why didnt they get the crap bombed out of them?
Andrew
Andrew
Maybe you should go and live in some of these countries for a while
it will give you a better apreciation of your western lifestyle .B....free
michael
07-15-2005, 01:42 AM
#38
Hmmmmmm.........
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Ha Ha...Nice point RP.
Thats just it Lock, I have. I have worked in Cyprus doing some work for the Iranian government which required a number of trips there for weeks at a time. Admitedly It was only for a week or 2 at a time, but its nothing like that. You are welcome to join a forum, and write JUST ABOUT ANYTHING you like, so long as its not anti-government or against the koran. But hey, wait until Little Johnies Industrial Relations changes come in...Then start talking anti your boss and see how far you get.
To me its like this, you have bought a nice fast sports car, which is capable of driving you from a->b at the govt approved speed and in the govt approved way, but it COULD also do it in a reckless way at way over the speed limit. So your next door neighbour comes and takes your car away! Two problems, one who says you are going to do that and next who gave your neighbour the right.
When you read articles like this http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/st...ackground.html the crux of the problem appears to be is that Iran wants nuclear power and they want to learn and do it their way. But the UN (I will say UN for the moment) say Ohhh no, you dont need to do that, we have already done the reasearch (blown up a few japanese towns in doing the research but shhhhh) you can get the technology from us. So all of a suddent Iran has to stop its program and Buy the technology from the UN nations that already have Nuclear power plants. Why? Whats to say there way is the best?
Again, I am sorry for the rant, I am scepticle by nature and my job is to question everything and see if there are better ways to do things.
And to lighten the mood a bit. If you are curious where your money is going http://www.toiletmap.gov.au/plan.aspx
Andrew
Thats just it Lock, I have. I have worked in Cyprus doing some work for the Iranian government which required a number of trips there for weeks at a time. Admitedly It was only for a week or 2 at a time, but its nothing like that. You are welcome to join a forum, and write JUST ABOUT ANYTHING you like, so long as its not anti-government or against the koran. But hey, wait until Little Johnies Industrial Relations changes come in...Then start talking anti your boss and see how far you get.
To me its like this, you have bought a nice fast sports car, which is capable of driving you from a->b at the govt approved speed and in the govt approved way, but it COULD also do it in a reckless way at way over the speed limit. So your next door neighbour comes and takes your car away! Two problems, one who says you are going to do that and next who gave your neighbour the right.
When you read articles like this http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/st...ackground.html the crux of the problem appears to be is that Iran wants nuclear power and they want to learn and do it their way. But the UN (I will say UN for the moment) say Ohhh no, you dont need to do that, we have already done the reasearch (blown up a few japanese towns in doing the research but shhhhh) you can get the technology from us. So all of a suddent Iran has to stop its program and Buy the technology from the UN nations that already have Nuclear power plants. Why? Whats to say there way is the best?
Again, I am sorry for the rant, I am scepticle by nature and my job is to question everything and see if there are better ways to do things.
And to lighten the mood a bit. If you are curious where your money is going http://www.toiletmap.gov.au/plan.aspx
Andrew
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