ILIV48

The points Revolver makes are all things I thought to myself when I opted to replace my 8 with the new MX5. I sat there and pondered the fact it handles as well as the 8, on the road or the track can keep up with a 8 (people are doing 1 min 15's & 16's around wakefield in stock NC MX5's) and the NC MX5 was offered to me nearly $20,000 cheaper than I could get a new 8 and over 50% cheaper to run. The only real advantage the 8 had was 4 seats which I didn't really need.

So in the end the head won over the heart. I love the 8 and even now when I see them on the road or am with all the Vic guys I still get the twang in the heart. The head just could not justify it though over the MX5


As far as it goe's the MPS3 will be quick in a straight line and also around a track. The current SP23 is certainly no slouch when it comes to corners and have been in one with some suspension tweaks and it hammered. Around a track like Sandown I think the MPS3 would give the 8 a real run for it's money (that is as long as they do tweak the suspension we all suspect they will).

My next action is to convince Danielle that we should replace her SP23 with the MPS3 when it comes out!

Gomez

You asked, so I'll answer!! Three times that figure, worldwide.

Revolver

Very good point Azza.

Timbo had me momentarily stymied with his stat doublespeak but I agree a number of people may well have walked for those reasons. I've heard a number of car enthusiasts say that they loved the 8's handling but were disappointed in its relative lack of power and torque.

I just wonder how much bigger a success the 8 would be if it had started with (say) 220kw and 300Nm from the outset. It's no surprise Mazda don't want to retroengineer the Renesis and the rest of the car to accept FI power and Timbo's probably right that demand wouldn't be strong enough to make a good business case for it, hence the aftermarket activity.

Perhaps I'm blaming Mazda for my own perceptions of the car's weakness and we all know there's plenty of other things to love about it. I just want it to be better!

Oh well, 12K will sort out my issue I suppose. Gotta be cheaper than therapy.

auzoom

My point then is that the 8 only weighs 100kgs more, is rear wheel drive, has a better gearbox (all be it could be better) and has better weight distribution. So I still doubt with this new setup that it could take the 8 in a stright line.

Andrew

timbo

'Onya son! Geez you reliable (in most things )

No, I'm going to argue against you power junkies (and besides, I think what you are talking about is torque, not HP). First, if I give you a 220Kw/300+Nm FI version of the car, I bet it'll be less than a week before the moans of "...drinks petrol"..."..hard to drive in traffic...."..."keep spending small fortunes on tyres..." start

'Struth...we have enough of it already

Stuart...be fair....you really didn't have an option to get another 8 because, let's face it, you would have, and you said so. The MX-5 is a different niche; no 8 owner is really an alternative MX-5 owner (ok, apart from you 3 )

The 8 is what it is, and nothing Mazda is doing is, at least to my eyes, changing that. Yes, over time there will always be other cars that come along and, in a different class, outperform a traditional performance car. So what!

I guess it depends what one's expectations of one's car are, and how you see it relative to yourself. If you see it solely as an extension of your ego, and you are inherently insecure then...guess what...no car will ever do it for you....something will always be out there


(this is quite good fun...better than boring reports.... )

Revolver

Not sure about a gearbox advantage - the 3 MPS also gets a 6 speed manual.

I guess only time will tell but as I said earlier, should we be even guessing whether Mazda's hot hatch can do over its flagship performance model? Shouldn't the 8 be markedly quicker than both the 3 and 6 MPS?

If not, we've bought a boulevarde cruiser that looks pretty and can handle.

Revolver

I can only answer for this power junkie.

First, I've regularly said I wanted more torque as well as power.

Second, have you ever heard me complain about petrol, tyres, etc? To me, they're the entry price for fast motoring. Can't answer for the whingers who want the speed of a Fazza and the economy of a Prius and never want to buy new tyres. And I don't drive mine much in heavy traffic.

Third, you're discounting that Stuart seems to be as happy with his 5 as he was with his 8. Stop being so bloody one eyed. Other cars can give you French feelings too Timbo.

Fourth, is it really still a performance car if cars in so-called lesser classes can dust it? If not, why not call it what it is - a luxury car that can handle?

Fifth, spare me the ego psycho-babble. I'm not talking ***** extensions here. I'm talking poor product planning and a lack of power relative to its marketplace competitors.

<sits back for the next serve>

timbo

Why? Completely different style of car

Do you not agree that regardless of its power and performance, the 8 holds a much more special cachet over either the 3 or 6 MPS...and always will?

mikeyr

Well i just had to leap into this one.

I read about the MPS 3 about the same time as Rev obviously and my first reaction was the same as Stu/Mez, one for Jacqui, cept I've got her into a boat towing device for the moment and we decided to keep the MGA . That's gonna get a heart transplant but more on that later.

Mazda's biggest challenge is marketing positioning and not destroying the fantastic DNA - essence in the range, and the ZOOM ZOOM promise.

Every company needs a flagship, somebody has to love that flagship for the brand be sustained. We are allowed to get annoyed and frustrated, but there has to be benefits somewhere down the line. (somewhat like a marriage...i wish I'd left that alone)

The hot hatch is fine/smart and fits neatly into the product portfolio and adds to the brand value, however the straight performance numbers and preception does endanger the public perception of their "niche" flagship. The 8 is niche, the 350Z is mainstream (in perception, it has a family legacy that the 8 doesn't). It's not a 7, different target, (look at all us family people with them)

Writers will make the comparison and people will begin to believe it.

Mazda now has, mini - mid size covered including softroader. AND they are creating a "hot" segment, much as Subaru have. They are not marketing the MPS6 as an STi or Evo, rather a sporty version based on the ZOOM ZOOM promise. Same architecture as Subaru has with AWD, go anywhere, safely, swiftly.

The question is how to sustain "ZOOM ZOOM" with some sex appeal.

While the 8 is great and for all the reasons stated above I agree it can't be compared to a hot hatch...really. It can't be a slouch either, I play the clarkson tape to myself every time i need a giggle but that is 2 years old and that's a superceeded M3.

How can Mazda re-energise the 8. They have too, or replace it with something that fills the "excitement" space. Neither MPSs are truly sexy or could have pulled off the "hugging" doors execution.

Worryingly a lot of people have put a lot of effort into tweaking the Renesis with very limited improvement. If there was a "magic" solution it would have been sniffed by now. FI is a very logical, however is going to require a lot of development. Most of the FI so far has showed up weaknesses varied areas, from cooling (oil/water) through clutchs and general heat management. More use of CF might take a few Kg's off but that again is modest gain. (yep i read more than just the funny's too)

It's going to be fun to watch and Maz have no more than 12 months to solve or they will get swamped.

I voted with my wallet, I have another 8 on the way.

But Maz need to keep guy's like Doonson and Playa etc.....sorry but selling to us old farts won't be enough in the long run and those guy's will have more choices.... did someone mention Nissan I think i feel the earth rumbling ...someone go wake mothra....

Revolver

For me, yes. But cachet is a slippery beast. Street cred plays a part and I wonder if the 8's desirability will be hurt in the longterm by its failure to compete in the performance stakes.

We're talking subjective attitudes here and that's what makes it so much fun.

Nobody's right or wrong but its healthy to think about this stuff in my view and evaluate why you're stumping up for what is usually the second most expensive purchase you make and whether there is something else out there that will make you just as happy.

mikeyr

MX5 ain't niche.

Segment is fair size and Miata is segment leader hands down, use to be MGB before that.

Gomez

Well you'll be pleased to hear that Hymee is working on some trick mods that he anticipates will increase power from the supercharger substantially.

He's working on a solution that removes a flow restriction he's found. I'm talking out of class, but someone needs to!!

Information is power!!

mikeyr

Said much better than I did. To MOST people....

Mazda = ZOOM ZOOM.

Hot Hatch = RICE ..... unless you got European heritage.

Turbo's are bad ....see above.....

RX 8 used to add cred to "ZOOM ZOOM", that will slip with or without the MPS3 as the 450Z and Godzilla are born whatever their price.

Watcha goin to do Mazda????

Revolver

I agree 100% with Mikey's analysis.

Fact is, you can't produce a good model and then stand back, admire it for a while and then all but ignore it while you go about developing the rest of the range.

Perhaps its a feature of Mazda's limited development budget but I agree the 8 will be swamped if it's not improved in functional ways.

This doesn't make it a bad car. Simply one some of us will remember fondly once we've moved on to faster and better cars.

Of course, some hardcore enthusiasts will consider it heresy that you could move on at all.

timbo

Hang on...you read "Wheels" and whatever every month...are you saying you didn't understand what you were getting? Or are you now saying that having had a taste of a biy of performance, you crave more? Because if it is the latter, then I must unfortunately refer you back to said ego psycho-babble (believe it or not, it's what marketers use to make you do...exactly what you are doing)

Agree...but there are many others for whom this will be a major barrier...and we see enough of them elsewhere in this forum (no, not us here...them across there
)

Stuart's state of happiness is not the issue. For declared reasons (which I very much respect) he made a decision based on price though, and that obviously changes the equation. Play the ball and not the man, turkey

Lots of the so-called lesser classes dust "superior class" performance cars. So what! Doesn't mean a thing. Refer psycho-babble again

Which are? Perhaps that IS the point. What are the 8's natural competitors and is it demonstrably below par? Be careful how you answer this one

generis

Somebody mention beer?

Revolver

My bet is bugger all because they're selling more than enough cars with their current strategy.

Perhaps the 8 was simply used to pave the ZOOM ZOOM marketing pathway and now that it's served its purpose it will be allowed to fade away. Honda NSX anyone?

The history of the 5 has also proved that since the FD 7 the handling guys have regularly beat up the power junkies behind the engineering sheds at Hiroshima.

<Damn, I'm in a provocative mood today - must be dealing with these real estate agents>

yiksing

You shouldn't be bothered with the MPS 3 if you really bought the 8 for what it is.

mikeyr

Now we part ways. ......NSX was a crystalisation of Honda's ongoing committment to motor sport. They have never pulled back from that and despite their current woeful stable .........(lots of people think the euro is sporty, but most of them have never seen the inside of a engine bay) .......sorry where was I.....oh yeah.......Honda retain cred through F1 (well thats there strategy) and bikes.

NSX didn't fade away so much as be a dumb idea in the first place. It wasn't an RX type entry, it was to be a "supercar".

timbo

No, I think sales are well below expectations...'Mez!!??

A real danger, but thankfully, Mazda have tended to stick to their guns in the past (as the prospectus says, past performance is not always indicative of futre outcomes ;( ) And, to be fair, Honda has also stuck to the NSX pretty well. There's a few motoring journalists who continue to name it as the performance car they'd like to own and live with.

Or, perhaps it is the case that ultimately the FD 7 power guys did not favours for the rotary cause. Nice car and everything, but pretty bloody complex in its final iteration

Revolver

Of course I knew it wasn't the torquiest thing out there. However, it was the best combination of power, torque, style and practicality that I could afford at the time. Does that mean I'm forbidden from seeking improvement, especially since I love so many things about the car, without being accused of having an insecurity complex for chrissakes? Are you seriously suggesting we should all just thank our lucky stars Mazda decided to bless us with this car and not ask for more in the future? Damn, and you say the marketers have me pegged. You're bloody gold.




How was I playing the man? He posted about finding the 5 as satisfying as the 8 in most respects. You bypassed that and simply went to his reasons for changing. I know those reasons too but the fact remains one of us who has jumped ship ain't exactly pining away. As I said elsewhere, he remembers the 8 fondly but likes his 5 apparently just as much.




Okay fine. I've said somewhere else there can be overlap between classes. However, it is more unusual to find it within the same manufacturer's model range. Go read Mikey's analysis of this.




This is your strongest argument and why the 8 remains a strong niche player. However, the market WILL compare it to other cars, no matter how individual you see it. Every car has competitors, depending on how you play off stuff like style, practicality, performance, handling, etc. And you can't tell me performance isn't one of the factors in the 8's desirability. Is it a crime to want to boost that aspect of the car while keeping its strengths?

timbo

Exactly. Well said!

Revolver

Fair enough. The NSX analogy wasn't watertight.

However, I think time will tell whether the 8 is improved in significant respects like the 350Z or be left in pretty much the same mechanical form and left to rot at the "top" of the model range.