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#26
The points Revolver makes are all things I thought to myself when I opted to replace my 8 with the new MX5. I sat there and pondered the fact it handles as well as the 8, on the road or the track can keep up with a 8 (people are doing 1 min 15's & 16's around wakefield in stock NC MX5's) and the NC MX5 was offered to me nearly $20,000 cheaper than I could get a new 8 and over 50% cheaper to run. The only real advantage the 8 had was 4 seats which I didn't really need.
So in the end the head won over the heart. I love the 8 and even now when I see them on the road or am with all the Vic guys I still get the twang in the heart. The head just could not justify it though over the MX5
As far as it goe's the MPS3 will be quick in a straight line and also around a track. The current SP23 is certainly no slouch when it comes to corners and have been in one with some suspension tweaks and it hammered. Around a track like Sandown I think the MPS3 would give the 8 a real run for it's money (that is as long as they do tweak the suspension we all suspect they will).
My next action is to convince Danielle that we should replace her SP23 with the MPS3 when it comes out!
So in the end the head won over the heart. I love the 8 and even now when I see them on the road or am with all the Vic guys I still get the twang in the heart. The head just could not justify it though over the MX5
As far as it goe's the MPS3 will be quick in a straight line and also around a track. The current SP23 is certainly no slouch when it comes to corners and have been in one with some suspension tweaks and it hammered. Around a track like Sandown I think the MPS3 would give the 8 a real run for it's money (that is as long as they do tweak the suspension we all suspect they will).
My next action is to convince Danielle that we should replace her SP23 with the MPS3 when it comes out!
#27
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Originally Posted by ILIV48
My next action is to convince Danielle that we should replace her SP23 with the MPS3 when it comes out!
lol i like that 1. I think taka is bangin his head now wishing he waited a bit b4 got his wife the sp23
on second thoughts my mums astina is getting old time 4 upgrade..
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Originally Posted by timbo
Let's do the numbers on that basis: worldwide sales have been what, c50,000 cars for the 8 (someone correct me....like 75% of all good statistics, I just made that up ) :
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Originally Posted by azzaboynt
It would be interesting to know if there were buyers who were thinking of getting an 8, went elsewhere when they found out 1) Not as much power as they were hoping, and 2) came from turbo rx7 etc and because of no FI option on a Factory 8 went for a WRX or something like that.
Timbo had me momentarily stymied with his stat doublespeak but I agree a number of people may well have walked for those reasons. I've heard a number of car enthusiasts say that they loved the 8's handling but were disappointed in its relative lack of power and torque.
I just wonder how much bigger a success the 8 would be if it had started with (say) 220kw and 300Nm from the outset. It's no surprise Mazda don't want to retroengineer the Renesis and the rest of the car to accept FI power and Timbo's probably right that demand wouldn't be strong enough to make a good business case for it, hence the aftermarket activity.
Perhaps I'm blaming Mazda for my own perceptions of the car's weakness and we all know there's plenty of other things to love about it. I just want it to be better!
Oh well, 12K will sort out my issue I suppose. Gotta be cheaper than therapy.
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Originally Posted by Revolver
Andrew, if it was 180kw at the wheels I would have dropped a deposit on one already, bugger the torque steer. Hoo boy!
'Mez is correct.
'Mez is correct.
Andrew
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Originally Posted by Gomez
You asked, so I'll answer!! Three times that figure, worldwide.
No, I'm going to argue against you power junkies (and besides, I think what you are talking about is torque, not HP). First, if I give you a 220Kw/300+Nm FI version of the car, I bet it'll be less than a week before the moans of "...drinks petrol"..."..hard to drive in traffic...."..."keep spending small fortunes on tyres..." start
'Struth...we have enough of it already
Stuart...be fair....you really didn't have an option to get another 8 because, let's face it, you would have, and you said so. The MX-5 is a different niche; no 8 owner is really an alternative MX-5 owner (ok, apart from you 3 )
The 8 is what it is, and nothing Mazda is doing is, at least to my eyes, changing that. Yes, over time there will always be other cars that come along and, in a different class, outperform a traditional performance car. So what!
I guess it depends what one's expectations of one's car are, and how you see it relative to yourself. If you see it solely as an extension of your ego, and you are inherently insecure then...guess what...no car will ever do it for you....something will always be out there
(this is quite good fun...better than boring reports.... )
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Originally Posted by auzoom
My point then is that the 8 only weighs 100kgs more, is rear wheel drive, has a better gearbox (all be it could be better) and has better weight distribution. So I still doubt with this new setup that it could take the 8 in a stright line.
Andrew
Andrew
I guess only time will tell but as I said earlier, should we be even guessing whether Mazda's hot hatch can do over its flagship performance model? Shouldn't the 8 be markedly quicker than both the 3 and 6 MPS?
If not, we've bought a boulevarde cruiser that looks pretty and can handle.
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Originally Posted by timbo
No, I'm going to argue against you power junkies (and besides, I think what you are talking about is torque, not HP). First, if I give you a 220Kw/300+Nm FI version of the car, I bet it'll be less than a week before the moans of "...drinks petrol"..."..hard to drive in traffic...."..."keep spending small fortunes on tyres..." start
'Struth...we have enough of it already
Stuart...be fair....you really didn't have an option to get another 8 because, let's face it, you would have, and you said so. The MX-5 is a different niche; no 8 owner is really an alternative MX-5 owner (ok, apart from you 3 )
The 8 is what it is, and nothing Mazda is doing is, at least to my eyes, changing that. Yes, over time there will always be other cars that come along and, in a different class, outperform a traditional performance car. So what!
I guess it depends what one's expectations of one's car are, and how you see it relative to yourself. If you see it solely as an extension of your ego, and you are inherently insecure then...guess what...no car will ever do it for you....something will always be out there
'Struth...we have enough of it already
Stuart...be fair....you really didn't have an option to get another 8 because, let's face it, you would have, and you said so. The MX-5 is a different niche; no 8 owner is really an alternative MX-5 owner (ok, apart from you 3 )
The 8 is what it is, and nothing Mazda is doing is, at least to my eyes, changing that. Yes, over time there will always be other cars that come along and, in a different class, outperform a traditional performance car. So what!
I guess it depends what one's expectations of one's car are, and how you see it relative to yourself. If you see it solely as an extension of your ego, and you are inherently insecure then...guess what...no car will ever do it for you....something will always be out there
First, I've regularly said I wanted more torque as well as power.
Second, have you ever heard me complain about petrol, tyres, etc? To me, they're the entry price for fast motoring. Can't answer for the whingers who want the speed of a Fazza and the economy of a Prius and never want to buy new tyres. And I don't drive mine much in heavy traffic.
Third, you're discounting that Stuart seems to be as happy with his 5 as he was with his 8. Stop being so bloody one eyed. Other cars can give you French feelings too Timbo.
Fourth, is it really still a performance car if cars in so-called lesser classes can dust it? If not, why not call it what it is - a luxury car that can handle?
Fifth, spare me the ego psycho-babble. I'm not talking ***** extensions here. I'm talking poor product planning and a lack of power relative to its marketplace competitors.
<sits back for the next serve>
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Originally Posted by Revolver
Shouldn't the 8 be markedly quicker than both the 3 and 6 MPS?
Do you not agree that regardless of its power and performance, the 8 holds a much more special cachet over either the 3 or 6 MPS...and always will?
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Well i just had to leap into this one.
I read about the MPS 3 about the same time as Rev obviously and my first reaction was the same as Stu/Mez, one for Jacqui, cept I've got her into a boat towing device for the moment and we decided to keep the MGA . That's gonna get a heart transplant but more on that later.
Mazda's biggest challenge is marketing positioning and not destroying the fantastic DNA - essence in the range, and the ZOOM ZOOM promise.
Every company needs a flagship, somebody has to love that flagship for the brand be sustained. We are allowed to get annoyed and frustrated, but there has to be benefits somewhere down the line. (somewhat like a marriage...i wish I'd left that alone)
The hot hatch is fine/smart and fits neatly into the product portfolio and adds to the brand value, however the straight performance numbers and preception does endanger the public perception of their "niche" flagship. The 8 is niche, the 350Z is mainstream (in perception, it has a family legacy that the 8 doesn't). It's not a 7, different target, (look at all us family people with them)
Writers will make the comparison and people will begin to believe it.
Mazda now has, mini - mid size covered including softroader. AND they are creating a "hot" segment, much as Subaru have. They are not marketing the MPS6 as an STi or Evo, rather a sporty version based on the ZOOM ZOOM promise. Same architecture as Subaru has with AWD, go anywhere, safely, swiftly.
The question is how to sustain "ZOOM ZOOM" with some sex appeal.
While the 8 is great and for all the reasons stated above I agree it can't be compared to a hot hatch...really. It can't be a slouch either, I play the clarkson tape to myself every time i need a giggle but that is 2 years old and that's a superceeded M3.
How can Mazda re-energise the 8. They have too, or replace it with something that fills the "excitement" space. Neither MPSs are truly sexy or could have pulled off the "hugging" doors execution.
Worryingly a lot of people have put a lot of effort into tweaking the Renesis with very limited improvement. If there was a "magic" solution it would have been sniffed by now. FI is a very logical, however is going to require a lot of development. Most of the FI so far has showed up weaknesses varied areas, from cooling (oil/water) through clutchs and general heat management. More use of CF might take a few Kg's off but that again is modest gain. (yep i read more than just the funny's too)
It's going to be fun to watch and Maz have no more than 12 months to solve or they will get swamped.
I voted with my wallet, I have another 8 on the way.
But Maz need to keep guy's like Doonson and Playa etc.....sorry but selling to us old farts won't be enough in the long run and those guy's will have more choices.... did someone mention Nissan I think i feel the earth rumbling ...someone go wake mothra....
I read about the MPS 3 about the same time as Rev obviously and my first reaction was the same as Stu/Mez, one for Jacqui, cept I've got her into a boat towing device for the moment and we decided to keep the MGA . That's gonna get a heart transplant but more on that later.
Mazda's biggest challenge is marketing positioning and not destroying the fantastic DNA - essence in the range, and the ZOOM ZOOM promise.
Every company needs a flagship, somebody has to love that flagship for the brand be sustained. We are allowed to get annoyed and frustrated, but there has to be benefits somewhere down the line. (somewhat like a marriage...i wish I'd left that alone)
The hot hatch is fine/smart and fits neatly into the product portfolio and adds to the brand value, however the straight performance numbers and preception does endanger the public perception of their "niche" flagship. The 8 is niche, the 350Z is mainstream (in perception, it has a family legacy that the 8 doesn't). It's not a 7, different target, (look at all us family people with them)
Writers will make the comparison and people will begin to believe it.
Mazda now has, mini - mid size covered including softroader. AND they are creating a "hot" segment, much as Subaru have. They are not marketing the MPS6 as an STi or Evo, rather a sporty version based on the ZOOM ZOOM promise. Same architecture as Subaru has with AWD, go anywhere, safely, swiftly.
The question is how to sustain "ZOOM ZOOM" with some sex appeal.
While the 8 is great and for all the reasons stated above I agree it can't be compared to a hot hatch...really. It can't be a slouch either, I play the clarkson tape to myself every time i need a giggle but that is 2 years old and that's a superceeded M3.
How can Mazda re-energise the 8. They have too, or replace it with something that fills the "excitement" space. Neither MPSs are truly sexy or could have pulled off the "hugging" doors execution.
Worryingly a lot of people have put a lot of effort into tweaking the Renesis with very limited improvement. If there was a "magic" solution it would have been sniffed by now. FI is a very logical, however is going to require a lot of development. Most of the FI so far has showed up weaknesses varied areas, from cooling (oil/water) through clutchs and general heat management. More use of CF might take a few Kg's off but that again is modest gain. (yep i read more than just the funny's too)
It's going to be fun to watch and Maz have no more than 12 months to solve or they will get swamped.
I voted with my wallet, I have another 8 on the way.
But Maz need to keep guy's like Doonson and Playa etc.....sorry but selling to us old farts won't be enough in the long run and those guy's will have more choices.... did someone mention Nissan I think i feel the earth rumbling ...someone go wake mothra....
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Originally Posted by timbo
Why? Completely different style of car
Do you not agree that regardless of its power and performance, the 8 holds a much more special cachet over either the 3 or 6 MPS...and always will?
Do you not agree that regardless of its power and performance, the 8 holds a much more special cachet over either the 3 or 6 MPS...and always will?
We're talking subjective attitudes here and that's what makes it so much fun.
Nobody's right or wrong but its healthy to think about this stuff in my view and evaluate why you're stumping up for what is usually the second most expensive purchase you make and whether there is something else out there that will make you just as happy.
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Originally Posted by timbo
. The MX-5 is a different niche; no 8 owner is really an alternative MX-5 owner (ok, apart from you 3 )
Segment is fair size and Miata is segment leader hands down, use to be MGB before that.
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Originally Posted by Revolver
Bugger it, soon as I buy this new house and get things organised I'll have to get on Hymee's hammer or help RotorMaster pay off his mortgage.
Least xxup will be happy.
Least xxup will be happy.
He's working on a solution that removes a flow restriction he's found. I'm talking out of class, but someone needs to!!
Information is power!!
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Originally Posted by Revolver
For me, yes. But cachet is a slippery beast. Street cred plays a part and I wonder if the 8's desirability will be hurt in the longterm by its failure to compete in the performance stakes.
Mazda = ZOOM ZOOM.
Hot Hatch = RICE ..... unless you got European heritage.
Turbo's are bad ....see above.....
RX 8 used to add cred to "ZOOM ZOOM", that will slip with or without the MPS3 as the 450Z and Godzilla are born whatever their price.
Watcha goin to do Mazda????
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I agree 100% with Mikey's analysis.
Fact is, you can't produce a good model and then stand back, admire it for a while and then all but ignore it while you go about developing the rest of the range.
Perhaps its a feature of Mazda's limited development budget but I agree the 8 will be swamped if it's not improved in functional ways.
This doesn't make it a bad car. Simply one some of us will remember fondly once we've moved on to faster and better cars.
Of course, some hardcore enthusiasts will consider it heresy that you could move on at all.
Fact is, you can't produce a good model and then stand back, admire it for a while and then all but ignore it while you go about developing the rest of the range.
Perhaps its a feature of Mazda's limited development budget but I agree the 8 will be swamped if it's not improved in functional ways.
This doesn't make it a bad car. Simply one some of us will remember fondly once we've moved on to faster and better cars.
Of course, some hardcore enthusiasts will consider it heresy that you could move on at all.
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Originally Posted by Revolver
First, I've regularly said I wanted more torque as well as power.
Originally Posted by Revolver
Second, have you ever heard me complain about petrol, tyres, etc? To me, they're the entry price for fast motoring. Can't answer for the whingers who want the speed of a Fazza and the economy of a Prius and never want to buy new tyres. And I don't drive mine much in heavy traffic.
)
Originally Posted by Revolver
Third, you're discounting that Stuart seems to be as happy with his 5 as he was with his 8. Stop being so bloody one eyed. Other cars can give you French feelings too Timbo.
Originally Posted by Revolver
Fourth, is it really still a performance car if cars in so-called lesser classes can dust it? If not, why not call it what it is - a luxury car that can handle?
Originally Posted by Revolver
I'm talking poor product planning and a lack of power relative to its marketplace competitors.
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Originally Posted by mikeyr
Watcha goin to do Mazda????
Perhaps the 8 was simply used to pave the ZOOM ZOOM marketing pathway and now that it's served its purpose it will be allowed to fade away. Honda NSX anyone?
The history of the 5 has also proved that since the FD 7 the handling guys have regularly beat up the power junkies behind the engineering sheds at Hiroshima.
<Damn, I'm in a provocative mood today - must be dealing with these real estate agents>
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Originally Posted by Revolver
My bet is bugger all because they're selling more than enough cars with their current strategy.
Perhaps the 8 was simply used to pave the ZOOM ZOOM marketing pathway and now that it's served its purpose it will be allowed to fade away. Honda NSX anyone?
The history of the 5 has also proved that since the FD 7 the handling guys have regularly beat up the power junkies behind the engineering sheds at Hiroshima.
<Damn, I'm in a provocative mood today - must be dealing with these real estate agents>
Perhaps the 8 was simply used to pave the ZOOM ZOOM marketing pathway and now that it's served its purpose it will be allowed to fade away. Honda NSX anyone?
The history of the 5 has also proved that since the FD 7 the handling guys have regularly beat up the power junkies behind the engineering sheds at Hiroshima.
<Damn, I'm in a provocative mood today - must be dealing with these real estate agents>
NSX didn't fade away so much as be a dumb idea in the first place. It wasn't an RX type entry, it was to be a "supercar".
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Originally Posted by Revolver
My bet is bugger all because they're selling more than enough cars with their current strategy.
Originally Posted by Revolver
Perhaps the 8 was simply used to pave the ZOOM ZOOM marketing pathway and now that it's served its purpose it will be allowed to fade away
Originally Posted by Revolver
The history of the 5 has also proved that since the FD 7 the handling guys have regularly beat up the power junkies behind the engineering sheds at Hiroshima.
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Originally Posted by timbo
Hang on...you read "Wheels" and whatever every month...are you saying you didn't understand what you were getting? Or are you now saying that having had a taste of a biy of performance, you crave more? Because if it is the latter, then I must unfortunately refer you back to said ego psycho-babble (believe it or not, it's what marketers use to make you do...exactly what you are doing)
Originally Posted by timbo
Stuart's state of happiness is not the issue. For declared reasons (which I very much respect) he made a decision based on price though, and that obviously changes the equation. Play the ball and not the man, turkey
Originally Posted by timbo
Lots of the so-called lesser classes dust "superior class" performance cars. So what! Doesn't mean a thing. Refer psycho-babble again
Originally Posted by timbo
Which are? Perhaps that IS the point. What are the 8's natural competitors and is it demonstrably below par? Be careful how you answer this one
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Originally Posted by mikeyr
Now we part ways. ......NSX was a crystalisation of Honda's ongoing committment to motor sport. They have never pulled back from that and despite their current woeful stable .........(lots of people think the euro is sporty, but most of them have never seen the inside of a engine bay) .......sorry where was I.....oh yeah.......Honda retain cred through F1 (well thats there strategy) and bikes.
NSX didn't fade away so much as be a dumb idea in the first place. It wasn't an RX type entry, it was to be a "supercar".
NSX didn't fade away so much as be a dumb idea in the first place. It wasn't an RX type entry, it was to be a "supercar".
However, I think time will tell whether the 8 is improved in significant respects like the 350Z or be left in pretty much the same mechanical form and left to rot at the "top" of the model range.