Revolver

No contest for me.

Although the M3 is an improvement on the generally ugly, slab sided current 3 series (just like the 1 series coupe looks better than the hatch), it's still an ordinary looker IMHO. I also find the interior blandsville.

From all reports it's also unnecessarily complicated (unless you have the car set up sensibilities of Schumacher) and of course there's the dreaded i-drive. I checked that out on a mate's car and although he said you get used to it he agrees it is a pain in the ***. Both Merc and Audi have much more intuitive interfaces.

But, leaving all that aside - in the GTR you get something that will whip the M3's *** and keep cars double the price honest on the road and track. It's a huge achievement and makes the kind of prices charged for the 911 Turbo and assorted Fazza's look like the **** they are (not to mention Veyron's, Zonda's, etc). Simply, it doesn't cost that much to go that fast and people are paying for the exclusivity and snob value.

Revolver

Probably right but they're still the most practical, useable pure sports car on the market today and the benchmark against which most new performance cars are measured for steering, ride/handling balance, braking and driver involvement.

Although the R35 GTR is a weapon, the Audi R8 has that exotic classy look and Fazza's/Lambo's have rockstar appeal, the 911 is something you can live with as a daily and yet have a blast on road or track anytime you like (and can even tolerate children in the back). Still the king in my view, even if some owners wouldn't have a clue.

Revolver

Agreed. Let's face it - while we all plan dream garages for when the big red ball drops, in the meantime we're having 80-90% of the fun for 25-30% of the price.

matt13b

I do agree.I love rotarys for their bang for buck performance but I can't deny what the Porches can do.I just don't like the way they look as many people don't like how Mazda's look.Porches continually beat the Mazda's in the Targa Tassie but I think that a quartet of a million is about double what they are worth.BUT, they sell plenty of them so what do I know.Products are worth whatever consumers are willing to pay and pay they don for Porches and the like..

Revolver

Imagine how many more they'd sell if you really could buy a 911S for $115K (i.e. about half) - BMW/Audi would certainly be in big bloody trouble.

rotalution

Well appearence and styling is a personal taste - the cf roof, buldge on the bonnet, and the new side M3 mark are nice touches. The M3 is what I would like as daily where as the GTR definitely would be a nice weekend car.

Due to the fact that M3 is more subtle.. a more "normal" looking coupe .. where as the GTR.. i think is more super car looking.. much more aggressive... that grabs much more attention no doubt compare to M3.. which i actually dont like... Of coz.. given the choice of one.. I would choose the GTR without doubt as it can easily be daily too. But if given the luxury to own both.. I would drive the M3 as daily and the GTR as track, weekend car. ^_^

Dream garage
- R35 GTR (track/weekend)
- FI Rx8 (track/weekend)
- 400 BHP Spirit R Type A/ RZ FD3S (if i could fit into one) (track/weekend)
- Lotus exige S with K20A supercharged sub 3 secs 0-100 (track only)
- E90 M3 daily
- Range Rover daily

That would be.. enough ? thanks... o.o! lol

* need to pinch myself to come back to reality.. bloody monday morning @ work *

WhiteRain

I get that the GTR is quick. I agree that it performs at a level that's on par with cars twice or three times it's price, but outright speed (both straight line and around a track) isn't the only part of the equation. That's why, at the ~60K price range, I chose an RX-8 and not an Evo IX - for reasons some of you should be able to relate to.

To me, the M3 vs GTR comparison is a similar story. Quick & refined NA RWD cruiser vs technologically advanced manic AWD turbo rocketship.

IMO, the M3 is slightly classier, more refined, more practical to get around in. The look is more understated, yet still aggressive to those who know what they're looking for. For the uninitiated, it looks just like a garden variety BMW, and that lack of attention is something I appreciate in a car. Its got RWD, 50/50 weight balance and is lighter...so of the two cars, I think it offers a purer (yet slower) driving experience. Some would say the interior is dull, I'd call it classic. And the materials are all top quality.

If it's purely a numbers game, the GTR wins in virtually any situation. I can see the appeal for people who track their car a lot, it would be a no brainer for them. It's significantly faster, and definitely more bang for your buck, but it's not what I'm looking for in a car (although I'd relish the opportunity to drive one around for a weekend).

So, if that big red ball drops for me one day, I'd put the money down on an M3. It ticks all the boxes that don't appear on the spec sheet. But I'm guessing I'd be relatively lonely as most people here would probably be sitting on the GTR forums Of course, this is all still in a dream world...

Revolver

Some good points guys and respect your views. As you say, it's more than numbers and subjective appeal counts for a lot. I just can't warm to the Banglised Beemers, although I agree the M3 is probably the best of the lot so far.

For example, that new 135i coupe looks like being a great deal of fun and would certainly make the RX8 work hard to keep up around a track but I look at it and think, nahhh!!!

thisllub

As good as the M3 is it isn't a > $150000 car.

$53000 US translates to < $60000 AU.

Compare that to the $12000 difference between the Pontiac and Commodore.

The Lexus GS460 is more expensive in the US than the M3 yet more than $20000 cheaper here.

Fact is that BMW Australia ream their customers here.

takahashi

GTR will be useless in Australia because limit is 60kmh in most part and you have to watch out for those idiots.

On track, you want something more challenging. I don't want to be the person that owns the apparent fastest car and can't drive. I rather have a slow car that drive fast.

It really lose appeal if you can use a machine that beat all the records in the world.

So an M3 for me

rotalution

I would think if you can drive fast in your respective class, then you are a fast driver in your respective class.

Going Fast and consider being fast in a certain class doesnt neccessary mean you will automatically be fast when you move up.

So I dont think you can compare a M3 and a R35 for track performance bcoz u want to be the underdog. I believe you will still be higly respected even you have the fastest proven R35 out of the club given if you can drive a R35 the same pace as its power/weight ratio class or in theory even better with all it's high tech gear.

Revolver

I wouldn't just pick on BMW - all the German prestige/sports marques are on healthy profit margins. Supply and demand - so long as people are prepared to pay it, they'll charge it.

Revolver

Fair point but that all depends on whether you're more interested in competing against others and worrying about what they think of you instead of just enjoying a remarkable piece of engineering. I think it's easy to get too focused on track times.

WhiteRain

Totally agree here. I love the M3, would love to own one... but think the price is unjustified.

I reckon it should be priced more around the $100K mark, I'm sure they'd still turn a tidy profit.

MY Racing 221

Yeah, again, its all horses for courses really. I agree with Revolver.

If I wanted a really fast car, I would have kept my Evo. As it is, I'm interested in more than that. I want a car that is involving and fun to drive, can fit kids in the back occasionally, and looks good. (Cue RX8!)

If I wanted a fast track car - I'd have gone elsewhere.

I understand where Taka is coming from. I used to get a big kick out of doing very low 15s at Wakefield when supersprinting a very near standard 86 Toyota MR2. It was one of the slowest cars in the field in a straight line (a massive 60kw ATW), but also one of the more rewarding cars when you got it right. When people ask you how you did the turbo conversion, or is it supercharged, it does give you a buzz. And probably a bit of a big head if we're honest.

The biggest buzz however has got to come from bettering yourself (starting to digress a little now). Improving your own lap times without changing the car. Even now, if I set a PB time while racing but finish in a pretty ordinary position, then I'm happy. I've done the best I can... just means everyone else was faster, and I need to do better next time!

Anyway, really great discussion guys. Its good to find a forum where people can be realistic about their cars, and appreciate other great machines (M3, GTR etc).

shaketim

if i had the money, i`d go for a porsche 911, for a few reasons,

i know i could thrash it and not hurt it,

i wouldnt feel the need to upgrade it in 5 years,

once youve bought a porsche, you`ve got nothing to prove to anyone else,i`d like to think i`d enjoy it as i grew old with it, like you always like the music you grow up with of a certain period, ( if you bought it new from a dealer )

but i think lots of people would buy themselves a porsche as a reward, as a sign of success for themselves ,

for the guys who get to race`em and have it both ways,... i`m a bit jealous

timbo

That's the "rose-coloured glasses" view of Porsche ownership.

My better half has owned three, and can attest:

- if you thrash it, things can just as easily break as in other cars (eg, gearbox)
- specialist Porsche dealers and after-market agents are very good at offering a wide range of tempting performance and appearance mods
- there's always someone with a faster Porsche (I'm reminded of Clarkson's comments on Top Gear about the problems facing buyers of Boxsters and Caymans )

...and there's always someone with a Fezza, Lambo, and nowadays the R8 more than willing to argue the point.

Same problems, different marque -- the grass there is no greener than here, it's just an illusion borne from perspective.

Polo drivers, on the other hand, have nothing to prove. They can't, so they don't and DILLIGAF

Revolver

Ahh, VW owners. Otherwise known as dreamkillers!

I think I could sleep at night knowing there's a faster Porsche/Fezza/Lambo/etc than the Cayman S or 911 S parked in my garage. Indeed, I think I'd sleep very well.

Revolver

BTW, enlighten me on this latest example of nerdy web speak...

timbo

No...you only think you would!

Do I Look Like I Give A F...!

matt13b

That dream garage is the same as mine! Except for the range Rover.
I would also like to try an exige with a rotary engine..

rotalution

I was talking other day with my friend that is getting K20A conversion for his Lotus .. I also mentioned rotary for the Lotus.. as its light/compact/powerful too... very good to go with the Lotus's design principal.. but.. the problem we figure is.. the Rotary engine is for FR car.. and the Lotus is a MR.. a bit of problem for the drive shaft configuration.. gear box.. etc etc...

There are quite a few K20A super charge Lotus around.. and they are GT3 killer.. conversion cost 40k mind u...

so.. sum it up.. 40k for a second hand oldish Lotus.. then put another 40k for the engine.. then you have a 80k super car.. sub 3 secs 0-100 and corner like no tomorrow.. oh my god..But unless u have a second car.. Lotus as a daily is a bit of ask

matt13b

I have been busy reading the RX8 story in Motor mag's latest issue about the RX8-SP entering the 2009 Targa Tasmania and just noticed that they published the letter I wrote to them last month about the "40 Years of Rotary" article they did. I wrote to them a while back and they published that letter but I am pleased that this one got "Letter of the Month". I'll try to get a friend to scan it for me so that you guys can read it on here..

DMRH

Betting they didn't publish my letter on the 40th rotary story telling them about the poor research & multiple mistakes..........lol

Revolver

I haven't bothered to renew my subscription to Motor...sick of the lame humour and ordinary journalism...