dbb

FROM THE ABC ONLINE :

Multi-million-dollar Commonwealth grants to Queensland sugar mills has sparked a row between the Federal Industry Minister and Premier Peter Beattie.

The Rocky Point Sugar Mill near Beenleigh and the CSR Distilleries at Sarina will share in $6.5 million in federal grants and the money will be used to boost ethanol production.

Mr Beattie warns the money will be a waste if the Federal Government does not mandate the use of ethanol in petrol nationally.

"We've got to mandate e-10," he said.

"And not only is it good for the environment it actually creates jobs in Queensland."

Federal Industry Minister Ian Macfarlane says there is a lot Mr Beattie could do to create a market for ethanol.

"He has the legislative ability, if he wants it, and I can show him the relevant act, if he is keen to mandate ethanol in Queensland," he said.

The Premier has dismissed this suggestion, saying it is illegal under the constitution for him to mandate ethanol use in Queensland.

Gomez

Don't know about the rest, but Shell guarantee no ethanol in their Optimax.........the RACV, RAA, NRMA et al would be up in arms if the Feds tried to push it through. Mcfarlane knows this, and we've had this argument before. It's not gonna fly........not even in Qld.

Gomez.

labrat

At 10% ethanol, you get a 3% decrease in power. That's because ethanol gives you 33% less energy than petrol (I worked it out on the basis of the heat of combustion of iso-octane). It seems funny that with people on this forum spending large bucks to get small increases in power, the government wants to ****** it away by making us use crappy fuel. And I dispute that it's good for the environment.

rpm_pwr

I often hear Beattie and sugar lobby groups say how successful the ethanol program in Brazil has been. But when you look into it you realize it's all but dead:



Impressive success wasn't it?

dbb

Maybe you should forward that graph to the premier's email address?

rpm_pwr

I think he knows what happens if you give people an option of no ethanol. That's why he's keen to see it in all unleaded.

Hymee

iTrader: (1)

Maybe they should mandate Methanol, and we all can have Cart/Indy car engines?

Cheers,
Hymee.

Hymee

iTrader: (1)

Labrat,

What is the difference in production of Methanol v's Ethanol?
What is the difference in heat of combustion / available power?
What is the recommended compression ratio?

Just thinking out loud.

Cheers,
Hymee.

labrat

Hi Hymee

1. Methanol is produced by controlled oxidation of natural gas - a highly efficient process. Ethanol is (mostly) produced by microbial (bacterial or yeast) fermentation of sugars, which is expensive.

2. I haven't my tables of values at home, so I'll have to run the sums tomorrow.

3. I haven't a clue about how these fuels are best used in cars. Sorry.

The graph that rpm-pwr produced really puts the lie to the pollies pronouncements. Look, I feel sorry for the guys in the sugar industry, but they're not the only people who have suffered and who will suffer from the continual restructuring of industries as society changes. No one offered me a subsidy when I got retrenched. Propping up inefficient industries whether they're in the cities or on the land won't stop change. The sugar industry will die, and Mitsubishi will close its plants in South Australia. It's hard and its nasty, and puring taxpayers money into these black holes won't stop it.

rpm_pwr

Hymee,
As a fuel methanol is pretty average. Around 50% of the available energy by volume compared to fuel (ever seen methanol injectors on a drag car? BIG!). The only reason Indy cars use them is because it is a single chemical rather than a coctail like petrol, so it's easier to control. It's also not a lot of fun if it happens to come into contact with you.

On the upside petrol sniffers would be wiped out overnight. Literally. It also has a an impressive resistance to knock.

As for propping up struggling industries, I believe Germany pays for Brazil's E22 (22% ethanol) program as part of it's Kyoto agreement commitments. Perhaps we could find a country to feel sorry for our sugar industry?

rotarenvy

I reckon it would increase sniffing; the smell of burnt methanol is quite popular in dragracing fans. you can always tell a methanol car as it smells sweet.

the effects of methanol poisioning are also slow effecting the nervous system I think. you get the shakes in your hands and your eyesight fails there are probably other chronic effects.

dbb

Petrol : 9000 Wh/l
LNG : 7126 Wh/l
Propane : 6600 Wh/l
Ethanol : 6100 Wh/l
Methanol : 5000 Wh/l
Compressed Air : 17 Wh/l

(Watt hours per litre).

labrat

hmm.... What's a Wh/L? What sort of unit is that? Whatever happened to good old Joules? I thought we were metric around here.

The ratio between the fuels is pretty much what I have calculated from first principles using heats of formation. The ratio between ethanol and petrol confirms what I said before: that ethanol delivers only 2/3 the energy of petrol.

dbb

I am metric, but the source I got those figures from isn't ...

Ageo

ive been reading through this thread and have absolutely no idea on this techincal stuff. Whatever you guys are blabbering keep it up (sounds good).

Luckily you dont need acedimic abilities to become wealthy.

Hymee

iTrader: (1)

Does that mean Compressed air has more power in it than non-compressed air Hehehe.

Nice info.

1 Watt Hour = 3600 joules. So each litre of the following fuels will produce the indicated amount of energy

Petrol : 9000 Wh/l = 32,400 kiloJoules (kJ)
LNG : 7126 Wh/l = 25,654 kJ
Propane : 6600 Wh/l = 23,760 kJ
Ethanol : 6100 Wh/l = 21,960 kJ
Methanol : 5000 Wh/l = 18,000 kJ
Compressed Air (I'm not going there - what is the pressure )

Cheers,
Hymee.

Hymee

iTrader: (1)

Nitro Methane = 5000 BTU / lb (I'll convert later)
Petrol = 19000 BTU / lb

But you can run Nitro as rich as 0.5:1 or richer!!

Check out this site:

http://home.wanadoo.nl/pereivers/fuels_1.htm

Cheers,
Hymee.

deano

The manual says that E-10 is fine in the RX-8.

Deano.

dbb

That is not the point. E-10 is fine, maybe, if the manufacturer doesn't void your warrantly and you are happy with the power loss.

But on a wider front : Why should we have to have it? If the sugar industry is unproductive, shut it down. I am not in a politically sensitive industry - so I would get absolutely no govenment support were I to lose my job. I can see it now "Government mandates ERP systems for all employers with more than 10 employees ...".