Motor Magazine PCOTY
03-14-2004 | 06:34 PM
#52
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Originally posted by michael taylor
now where have i heard that before? the result you wanted isn't there, the people who were there were obviously wrong, and it's all because of the advertising dollar.
well, lamborghini didn't advertise and they won. Porsche never advertise and they've won five times.
bmw advertise twice a year and they've won it twice.
MOTOR's most loyal advertiser, year in and year out, is Ford. It has never won, nor looked like winning.
That argument is spurious, easily disproven by available facts and verging on libel.
now where have i heard that before? the result you wanted isn't there, the people who were there were obviously wrong, and it's all because of the advertising dollar.
well, lamborghini didn't advertise and they won. Porsche never advertise and they've won five times.
bmw advertise twice a year and they've won it twice.
MOTOR's most loyal advertiser, year in and year out, is Ford. It has never won, nor looked like winning.
That argument is spurious, easily disproven by available facts and verging on libel.
As a non-owner of RX-8, I think I can give a pretty unbiased opinion here. Although the numbers may not have added up for RX-8, I think the Mazda is definitely a better everyday performance car than the Nissan. I may be wrong, but with these type of test, sometimes the numbers overwhelm the final decision.
One improvement you can make on the format is to include previous year's winner in the test (I emailed you about this MT). This way you have a benchmark and also see which is truly the PCOTY for all cars available in the market. I have been wondering how my Boxster S would fare against the Gallardo, and this would definitely have given me the answer!
03-14-2004 | 06:40 PM
#53
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From: Brisvegas, Aust
WAY, is that so you can justify YOUR purchase decision?
As an aside did anyone else notice the pattern with the fuel consumption figures in PCOTY? Everything but the liberty drank like a fish!
As an aside did anyone else notice the pattern with the fuel consumption figures in PCOTY? Everything but the liberty drank like a fish!
03-14-2004 | 06:52 PM
#54
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Originally posted by rpm_pwr
WAY, is that so you can justify YOUR purchase decision?
WAY, is that so you can justify YOUR purchase decision?
Actually I am a fan of the RX-8. I think you guys have a fantastic car. Would be nicer with a bit more power, but then again so would my car. You can never have too much power as long as it is not overpowering the chasis.
03-14-2004 | 08:35 PM
#55
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From: Sydney
Rx8 (8th place) vs Z4 (6th place)
For a 4 seater coupe the RX8 rocks with a brilliant balance of handling, ride, unique engine (let's even ignore RENESIS Outright International Engine of the Year/Wards 10 Best Engine Awards) and in my experience nothing much gets away from it on our normally rough twisty roads. If you want to talk about sports/racing engines (cars or bikes) they all run in the top end of the rpm range which is where the RX8 rotary lives comfortably all day but at a speed you can use on real roads with that awesome gearbox. Sitting in fourth gear all day riding a fat torque curve is hardly involving!
And if you want to improve the track times turn off the DSC/TCS properly!
Z4 is slower track or road (other than a bit of irrelevant top speed - refer BFYB results), Z4 brakes are inferior, Z4 has flawed new steering system, Z4 engine is good but oh so common - ok it is a convertible but you could save money and buy one from Daihatsu instead ;-)
Come on MT - capitulate and swap those positions!
For a 4 seater coupe the RX8 rocks with a brilliant balance of handling, ride, unique engine (let's even ignore RENESIS Outright International Engine of the Year/Wards 10 Best Engine Awards) and in my experience nothing much gets away from it on our normally rough twisty roads. If you want to talk about sports/racing engines (cars or bikes) they all run in the top end of the rpm range which is where the RX8 rotary lives comfortably all day but at a speed you can use on real roads with that awesome gearbox. Sitting in fourth gear all day riding a fat torque curve is hardly involving!
And if you want to improve the track times turn off the DSC/TCS properly!
Z4 is slower track or road (other than a bit of irrelevant top speed - refer BFYB results), Z4 brakes are inferior, Z4 has flawed new steering system, Z4 engine is good but oh so common - ok it is a convertible but you could save money and buy one from Daihatsu instead ;-)
Come on MT - capitulate and swap those positions!
Last edited by Z88M; 03-14-2004 at 09:27 PM.
03-14-2004 | 10:38 PM
#56
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From: Melb, AUS
The acceleration and track time figures were actually quite surprising. This PCOTY test is probably the quickest 0-100kph time I have seen for the RX-8 and the slowest I have seen for the Z4. The 350Z was also slower than expected, as was the Gallardo (I thought the Lambo would easily dispense 0-100 in less than 5 seconds).
The RX-8 posted a very good lap time as well. As for the reason it came 8th, well I felt it was a fair placement, although not for the same reasons as MOTOR. I don't agree with them on the torque issue or a substitute of a different engine, which I think they're missing the point. And although torque seems lightweight on paper, the gearing has a lot to do with how much of that torque is applied to the wheels on the ground, and on a track, you should be in the right gear ALL the time. MOTOR seems to have a certain preference for big-cubed torquey engines and never liked the idea of downshifting so it seems.
Anyway, a lot of parameters and variables come into play for empirical tests and should only be taken with a grain of salt. It should serve as an entertaining read and only that.
The RX-8 posted a very good lap time as well. As for the reason it came 8th, well I felt it was a fair placement, although not for the same reasons as MOTOR. I don't agree with them on the torque issue or a substitute of a different engine, which I think they're missing the point. And although torque seems lightweight on paper, the gearing has a lot to do with how much of that torque is applied to the wheels on the ground, and on a track, you should be in the right gear ALL the time. MOTOR seems to have a certain preference for big-cubed torquey engines and never liked the idea of downshifting so it seems.
Anyway, a lot of parameters and variables come into play for empirical tests and should only be taken with a grain of salt. It should serve as an entertaining read and only that.
03-15-2004 | 12:40 AM
#59
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From: sydney
Originally posted by Blackie
MOTOR also forgot to mention the M3 CSL runs on R compound rubber, which are easily worth 1-2 seconds per lap at Winton over the other street performance rubber the other cars are shod with.
MOTOR also forgot to mention the M3 CSL runs on R compound rubber, which are easily worth 1-2 seconds per lap at Winton over the other street performance rubber the other cars are shod with.
Err, I don't think we forgot...
03-15-2004 | 12:49 AM
#60
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From: Gold Coast Australia
Why is there such a discrapency between MOTOR magazine and WHEELS as to where the RX8 should be number 1 or 8th ???.
I and others cannot see how the 350z got to 4th place 4 places ahead of the RX8 .
I have driven both cars and the 350z is like a 911 porsche of 12 years ago rough , hard to live with not an everiday pleaseant drive ,
Motor praised the RX8 in lots of ways and then gives it 8th place i smell a bit of *** liking on MOTORS BEHALF.
CHEERS
MICHAEL
I and others cannot see how the 350z got to 4th place 4 places ahead of the RX8 .
I have driven both cars and the 350z is like a 911 porsche of 12 years ago rough , hard to live with not an everiday pleaseant drive ,
Motor praised the RX8 in lots of ways and then gives it 8th place i smell a bit of *** liking on MOTORS BEHALF.
CHEERS
MICHAEL
03-15-2004 | 01:12 AM
#61
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From: Melbourne, Australia
well i don't know i'm even not happy with the Acceleration they stated
I suppose the difference is WHeels is doing the Car of the Year
Motor is Doing the Performance Car of the Year. So i hope you know the difference there
I also don't agree the BMW M3 CSL can be the 2nd, when it has the fastest lap in Winton. So i think the Comparison test is Stuffed up.
I suppose the difference is WHeels is doing the Car of the Year
Motor is Doing the Performance Car of the Year. So i hope you know the difference there
I also don't agree the BMW M3 CSL can be the 2nd, when it has the fastest lap in Winton. So i think the Comparison test is Stuffed up.
03-15-2004 | 01:39 AM
#62
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if it was just about the fastest lap time at winton, we'd have saved our money and done the whole thing in a day.
the most important day was the road loop day, and it fell away there. and, for a pure track car, we didn't reckon it was quite fast enough, not when you consider a gallardo on the same tyres would have been two seconds faster - at least.
the most important day was the road loop day, and it fell away there. and, for a pure track car, we didn't reckon it was quite fast enough, not when you consider a gallardo on the same tyres would have been two seconds faster - at least.
03-15-2004 | 01:56 AM
#64
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who's comparing it with the mazda? the comment was clearly about the M3 CSL. The Mazda is a lot of things, but it's not a dedicated track car. In fact, it felt a lot less at home on the track than most of us reckoned it should, chassis-wise.
The point of PCOTY is not to compare cars directly against each other, but against a fixed set of criteria, based on their intended function. The mazda, by virtue of its luggage capacity and four useful seats, has a different intended market than the 350Z. Sure, there's a lot of overlap, but there are plenty of people who will look at one or the other (and not both) based on those two points alone.
The point of PCOTY is not to compare cars directly against each other, but against a fixed set of criteria, based on their intended function. The mazda, by virtue of its luggage capacity and four useful seats, has a different intended market than the 350Z. Sure, there's a lot of overlap, but there are plenty of people who will look at one or the other (and not both) based on those two points alone.
03-15-2004 | 01:59 AM
#65
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Originally posted by Lock & Load
Man you make me laugh , comparing a $400,000 car with a $66.000 Mazda .
i WOULD EXPECT IT TO BE QUICKER .DUH .
MICHAEL
Man you make me laugh , comparing a $400,000 car with a $66.000 Mazda .
i WOULD EXPECT IT TO BE QUICKER .DUH .
MICHAEL
LOL!
03-15-2004 | 02:08 AM
#66
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Originally posted by michael taylor
who's comparing it with the mazda? the comment was clearly about the M3 CSL. The Mazda is a lot of things, but it's not a dedicated track car. In fact, it felt a lot less at home on the track than most of us reckoned it should, chassis-wise.
The point of PCOTY is not to compare cars directly against each other, but against a fixed set of criteria, based on their intended function. The mazda, by virtue of its luggage capacity and four useful seats, has a different intended market than the 350Z. Sure, there's a lot of overlap, but there are plenty of people who will look at one or the other (and not both) based on those two points alone.
who's comparing it with the mazda? the comment was clearly about the M3 CSL. The Mazda is a lot of things, but it's not a dedicated track car. In fact, it felt a lot less at home on the track than most of us reckoned it should, chassis-wise.
The point of PCOTY is not to compare cars directly against each other, but against a fixed set of criteria, based on their intended function. The mazda, by virtue of its luggage capacity and four useful seats, has a different intended market than the 350Z. Sure, there's a lot of overlap, but there are plenty of people who will look at one or the other (and not both) based on those two points alone.
IMHO the rx8 is a four door four seater car with excellent chasis dynamics. Certainly the car needs more power especially bottom end, and there is some body roll, but otherwise the car is an excellent car for the track. In fact I believe it handles equally or slightly better to my S7 RX7
03-15-2004 | 02:10 AM
#67
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Originally posted by michael taylor
the most important day was the road loop day, and it fell away there. and, for a pure track car, we didn't reckon it was quite fast enough, not when you consider a gallardo on the same tyres would have been two seconds faster - at least.
the most important day was the road loop day, and it fell away there. and, for a pure track car, we didn't reckon it was quite fast enough, not when you consider a gallardo on the same tyres would have been two seconds faster - at least.
Time to change judges methinks
03-15-2004 | 06:54 AM
#68
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From: Sydney, Australia
Possibly not based on $$$ but how would a guy with a $400,000 dollar car feel if a $66 000 dollar car took PCOTY not to mention COTY.. He will look abit funny and feel abit stupid even if his car is to show pony around, been beat by a Mazda at 1/5 of the value.
Previously to the rx8 i have been driving a M3, my best friend bought a 350Z that i drove to work for 4 months while he was on holidays and countless other expensive cars on the list from cousins, uncles etc.
hands down i believe that the 8 has many things that these cars are lacking, hence the reason when buying a new car and never ever experienced a rotary before, i knew the 8 was one of the best out there at nearly half the price i was looking at spending on a car.
Good on you for coming in and defending your mag and results but i got a few emails already from friends that have been in the car and that have bought the magazine ( Two that own cars that are listed ) that think its total BS. They also commented that the magazine is turning into a circus.
I do not read the mag at all and these guys are people that have been buying your mag for years on end. I do not know the reason they feel this way bu they mentioned the RX8 was hard done by these results.
Anyway all the best for the future
Regards
Phillip
Previously to the rx8 i have been driving a M3, my best friend bought a 350Z that i drove to work for 4 months while he was on holidays and countless other expensive cars on the list from cousins, uncles etc.
hands down i believe that the 8 has many things that these cars are lacking, hence the reason when buying a new car and never ever experienced a rotary before, i knew the 8 was one of the best out there at nearly half the price i was looking at spending on a car.
Good on you for coming in and defending your mag and results but i got a few emails already from friends that have been in the car and that have bought the magazine ( Two that own cars that are listed ) that think its total BS. They also commented that the magazine is turning into a circus.
I do not read the mag at all and these guys are people that have been buying your mag for years on end. I do not know the reason they feel this way bu they mentioned the RX8 was hard done by these results.
Anyway all the best for the future
Regards
Phillip
03-15-2004 | 03:50 PM
#69
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From: Brisvegas, Aust
Originally posted by AMG
and by more than just two seconds, or is our cheap little mazda hiding something that you're not letting on
LOL!
and by more than just two seconds, or is our cheap little mazda hiding something that you're not letting on
LOL!
2 seconds off a Lambo!
I'd like to see that!I still don't understand why you guys are so upset. The little RX-8 has the smallest effective displacement out of every car listed, yet still managed to fight well above it's weight division.
03-15-2004 | 04:11 PM
#70
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From: Melbourne, Australia
Wow so much debate that I missed...
I have to agree with Michael Taylor in one thing that it is very hard to compare diff car for diff purposes. Like comparing orange and apple..
We are orange lover and when MOTOR grew up with apple in their mouth... it is very hard for them to swallow an orange...
It is a hard job in MOTOR I reckon.... much like mine - I just love playing with dead bodies
I have to agree with Michael Taylor in one thing that it is very hard to compare diff car for diff purposes. Like comparing orange and apple..
We are orange lover and when MOTOR grew up with apple in their mouth... it is very hard for them to swallow an orange...
It is a hard job in MOTOR I reckon.... much like mine - I just love playing with dead bodies
03-15-2004 | 06:41 PM
#73
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From: Melb, AUS
Well I don't think Motor deliberately awarded the Lambo 1st because it was the most expensive and aren't afraid of handing it to cheaper motor cars (as was with the case of the Nissan 200sx winning it a couple of years back). The M3 CSL didn't win because the ultimate decision still comes down to subjective preferences after all that data is logged and analysed.
And MT, as for mentioning the fact that the M3 had R compounds, no MOTOR you didn't mention that, simply stating that "these are super grippy" and listing "Pilot Sport Cups" does not state to the public that these tyres are made of a completely different compound to the rest of the field and are worth at least 2 seconds per lap at Winton.
As for not coming in 1st for the RX-8, hey I mean come on, it's not the end of the world. And honestly I don't believe it deserved 1st place based on their testing criteria either. It's just a test based on a set of parameters that are at best controversial, and judged by a group of guys that are just like everyone else, they have their own preconceptions and opinions. Get a bunch of you guys here to be the judging panel and the RX-8 would have won, get a bunch a Cayenne owners and even that abomination could have won. You guys lost out to mostly much more expensive automobilia so take it as an entertaining read and get over it. You don't need MOTOR to justify your purchase decisions.
And MT, as for mentioning the fact that the M3 had R compounds, no MOTOR you didn't mention that, simply stating that "these are super grippy" and listing "Pilot Sport Cups" does not state to the public that these tyres are made of a completely different compound to the rest of the field and are worth at least 2 seconds per lap at Winton.
As for not coming in 1st for the RX-8, hey I mean come on, it's not the end of the world. And honestly I don't believe it deserved 1st place based on their testing criteria either. It's just a test based on a set of parameters that are at best controversial, and judged by a group of guys that are just like everyone else, they have their own preconceptions and opinions. Get a bunch of you guys here to be the judging panel and the RX-8 would have won, get a bunch a Cayenne owners and even that abomination could have won. You guys lost out to mostly much more expensive automobilia so take it as an entertaining read and get over it. You don't need MOTOR to justify your purchase decisions.
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