NickG

Here's where I re-hijack my thread and send it on another goose chase. Since we clearly have some very knowledgable car spotters here, who can help with this?:

With the 335i now sorted, my next task is to replace my wife's ancient, but incredibly practical Saab 9000 hatchback. If any of you know the car, you'll be aware that it has a simply enormous boot, and masses of legroom in the back. How big is the boot? Well if we have to, we can load 3 adult bikes plus one kid's bike in there (with the back seat folded down and front bike wheels off, of course). It's been a perfect family workhorse ( unless of course you're the one that actually has to drive it! )

So we need a new wagon to keep for the long term ( possibly 5 years +). It's got to be big enough for our growing boys (8 and 11), both of whom will probably be taller than me before we plan to sell the thing. We are also considering the fact that this may eventually become my eldest son's car, when he turns 17. So there are issues with P plater regulations in NSW ( no high pressure turbos or V8's for instance).It's got to be decent to drive, have more guts than the gutless Saab, and it MUST be manual (my wife is one of those special breeds of women that refuses to drive an automatic. Suits me fine!) If it's a four cylinder, it better be a damn good one. Also, whilst we don't expect to have to put the four bikes inside - we'll get a proper bike carrier for that - we do carry a lot of other crud around. Enough to rule out most normal sedans that is. So it's gotta be decently practical ( I would have ruled out the old Alfa 156 wagon for instance).

Here's what I've been considering:

Subaru Liberty 3.0 spec B Wagon
BMW 323i touring
Merc C200k touring
Merc B Class 200 turbo
Alfa 159 2.2 (petrol) Sportwagon
Volvo V70

Any comments/ observations/ suggestions about these? Anything I missed off the list?

EZZY

Audi B5 RS4 (the fat guards/twin turbo version)

yellowrx8inoz

I friggin hope not. I'm a lot closer to retirement than you are my friend and I'm planning to speed up, not slow down!

Revolver

Okay, process of elimination:

1. The Bimmer is too small for growing boys - the back seat isn't that big and the cargo area isn't much bigger than the sedan. You'll need to go 5 series at least, so you may as well get an X5.

2. Merc B Class! Really?!! Can you say FUGLY. Trust me, every time you see it in your driveway you'll regret the decision.

3. Alfa - did you say you want to keep it for a while? With some honourable exceptions (hi Julia ) I can't think of an Alfa I'd like to keep past the warranty period.

4. Merc C200K - does this thing have enough grunt for a family of 4 and all their crap?

I think you're left with the Volvo and the Subey. I'd venture to suggest the Subey is a better driver's car and has a better manual shift. Volvo are also notorious for not getting the handling/ride balance right for Aussie roads but you know the Subey will work well here. I doubt Volvo retains a significant safety edge. Fuel economy any different?

BTW, you can't get a Mazda 6 wagon with a manual tranny. We tried. that's why we got the sedan instead.

No other options come to mind atm.

Hang on. CX7 perhaps?

PS, agreed about Saabs. Wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole.

Revolver

Oh yes!

Quickest trip to the shops and back in history. Those hard-bitten soccer mums won't know what hit them.

NickG

LOL but you got me thinking.... That's the shape before the current model isn't it?
What do they go for $ wise? Not sure I would want to keep/maintain an aging twin turbo Audi for too long though!

NickG

Thanks Revolver for your usual thoughtful input.

I actually considered a S/H 5 series wagon, they're big, but they're all auto of course... If ever I bought a 4WD it'd probably be an X5, but I'm just really anti the idea that we need a 2000kg + lump of metal with a centre of gravity a meter higher than necessary ( and all the compromises that go with it) just to haul my little family around.

I haven't managed to see the 323i wagon in the flesh yet, but it does sit on a much longer wheelbase than the Suby, and I'm thinking the lack of spare wheel might make the boot deeper than some. However I suspect you're right, it'll still be too small in the back, and also I'm not thrilled with the idea of owning two closely related cars. Especially when the other one has 130 hp less and in classic entry level BMW fashion is stripped of 95% of the toys I get to play with on mine!! It's the boredom thing again...

The B Class worries me too, partly because like you I'm not crazy about the looks. More to the point I've yet to read a positive review of the darn thing. Seems a lot of dissent about the electric steering and dynamics in general. We've yet to drive it, though on the plus side it's got a heap of legroom in the back and the boot looks pretty good too.

If we bought the C Class I'd have to face up to the fact that we would do so having never test driven a manual first. They just don't exist in any sensible dealer's stock - which worries me about the prospects of ever onselling one in future.

I've looked at but not driven the Volvo. Easily the most practical of anything we've seen. Worth closer investigation, but like the 9-5 it's a pretty old car now. Extended drive required methinks.

The Suby is looking pretty good I must admit. Kind of sensible, decently built, reliable, quite well finished, with respectable handling and performance. Based on my drive it's nowhere quick as Subaru claims though! And it has one nasty flaw - zero rear foot room. For some stupid reason the Suby's designers have made the bottom of the front seat so low you can't get your feet under it when you sit in the back. A really dumb error in an otherwise quite thoughtfully designed car.

Yes Alfa and longevity aren't two words I'd normally use in the same sentence. BUT... I did have a quick look at the 159 today and came away really impressed with the quantum leap in interior quality - materials, surfaces etc. Although it's still not up to the very best in class, it's at least as good as, say, VW. That's a big improvement for Alfa. But of course better materials doesn't necessarily mean better assembly! It's also a lot roomier than the old 156 wagon, but still a long way short of the Saab. Another one to take for a proper drive I think.

A mate at work has just bought a CX7. For a FWD it looks pretty neat ( I love the RX8 wheel arches!), is reasonably quick, and apparently it goes around corners too! It's only available in auto though. He's been a bit shocked by the fuel consumption too. In the city, whilst running in, it's struggling to better 20 litres/100km! I've offered to check the engine bay for him. I suspect under all the plastic cr*p there's a turbo 13B lurking in there somewhere!!

Just about everything I've thought about or looked at has some pretty significant compromises. Maybe I'm just being unrealistic in my brief, hence my interest in getting some other views.

timbo

I have a suggestion for both Nick and Kalli's dad: VW Passat 3.2 FSI with 6sp DSG & 4Motion

Wagon for Nick
Sedan for Kalli's dad

Revolver

Nick,

I'm with you on the 4WD thing. I'd much prefer the dynamics of a station wagon. Mind you, from what I hear about the better soft roaders like the CX7 and X5, the makers of these things are getting close. I think if you avoid the trucks like Pajeros and 'Cruisers they're not too bad. Weight is a problem though. I also tend to find that although the cargo area might be taller, it's not much deeper/longer than a normal wagon, which is a factor with longer things like MTBs. Actually, a lot of them struggle to outdo the cargo area on our last Falcon wagon dunger.

On the subject of AWDs, have you looked at the Audi Allroad quattro - V6 or V8 - $90K to $110K list. A friend has one and thinks it makes a great family wagon. I've not driven it but it looks the business.

I'd be really reluctant to buy the manual Merc for the resale reason you raise.

Surprised that the Subey has such a dumb design flaw too. You'll just have to fit Recaro's if you buy one.

Hmm, you might just have to become a bloody Volvo driver if the Audi is too exxy for your budget.

Revolver

Another worthy contender. Looks are a little awkward though.

NickG

Timbo I quite like the Passat 3.2 as well - it's spacious, decently finished and the 3.2 sounds good too. But the reason it's not on the list is because no Passat is available with a true manual. My wife and I both drove one of the DSG versions and while agreeing it makes a great auto alternative, we both felt it's a poor manual alternative. Pushing buttons on a steering wheel doesn't do it for either of us....

NickG

Now you get to see what a picky git I am . Unfortunately I don't think the Allroad is available in a true manual either, and I never quite get the logic of buying a jacked up version of a sedan, with inferior handling, if you are not planning to go off road. It's the same story with the Suby Outback and Volvo Cross Country. Both inferior to their wagon cousins, and I think both outselling the normal wagons despite that!

I'm thinking the next step is probably to get out there with a tape measure and see how the alternatives really stack up in practical terms, and persuade the dealers involved to let us have an extended test drive. A run through Bobbin Head and the old Pacific Hwy might help sort the wheat from the Chaff If the kids throw up in the back, I'll move onto the next car. Hey maybe I can even pretend to be Rickard Rydell off for a Sunday drive in the Volvo??

timbo

Hmm.."picky git" and not liking the DSG...I think you need to attend re-education camp!

It's the 21st century, Nick

EZZY

they are strong engines. as long as it is maintained like every other cars out there.
there arent many on the market, and if there is one... be prepared to pay an amr and a leg for it (and its worth it...)

Cromax

Hmm ... have you considered a Range Rover Sport?

If I was looking for a family wagon I'd most likely get a Range Rover or a Landcruiser ... but they're big soft wallowy things. The Range Rover Sport actually handled well and was quite firm ... and considering it's replacing an old Saab 9000, it's probably 100-fold more reliable (and it'll actually take corners!!! Bonus much?).

There's also those VW Touareg things ... I drove the W10 when they first came out and if you put your foot down, they fly (standing starts are about average, but rolling starts are very impressive for a 4WD). I really hate the look of them and they're generally considered to be poor form.

Both are only about $130k so they're not too expensive.

NickG

Ezzy in case you didn't notice, I lost one arm and a leg already mate!

EZZY

well... there is another one of each and hope they are still in a half decent condition. how about your wifey's?

NickG

I must behave and learn to like paddles
I must behave and learn to like paddles
I must behave and learn to like paddles
I must behave and learn to like paddles
I must behave and learn to like paddles
I must behave and learn to like paddles
I must behave and learn to like paddles
I must behave and learn to like paddles
Hallowed be the dual clutch mechanism
oh and Hydramatics, tbars, tiptronic, shitfronic, gintonic

NickG

Yup that's just $52/kg. But about 1000kg more than I need, or can afford!

Gibbo

Sorry did I miss something to do with the value of money......since when is 130k not too expensive.

Last I check 130k is very expensive for a car.....it's not too expensive for a heart transplant....but expensive for a car.

takahashi

Mr Katsa is rich enough....

Get a M5 mate.

EZZY

my thoughts are the same.... maybe we both are in the wrong industry
im having problems getting shannons to insure a $130+ car for my apartment parking arrangement

Revolver

Although I tend to agree with your rationale about jacked up wagons if you're not planning to take it down many dirt roads, as for transmission choice - what Timbo said. Time to try a few more of these trannies out methinks and see whether you can live with them. Just about everything you've mentioned will have a much better resale with an auto (+ 'manual' function).

After all, this isn't going to be the flog car is it? Does it really matter that much? After all, every car is a compromise and your adherence to a true manual in the segment you're looking at (i.e. upmarket family wagons) is greatly limiting your choices.