Lock & Load

I DONT PARTICULARY HATE MAZDA :D Revolver its good to see that not all members bury their heads in the sand like the old emus and would not under any circumstance admitt to mazda doing anything wrong .

This car which i love most of the time is far from trouble free and i for one am prepared to admitt it , so if some of you call it whining so be it :p

B...free
michael

labrat

OK, you're a Mazda dealer. A guy comes in and says my car's slow in starting, I want a new starter motor, battery, and plugs. Sure, says the Mazda dealer, right away sir. So he does the work, and puts in his bill to Mazda Australia. MA says sorry, you didn't get our authorization, wear it yourself. Doesn't sound logical, does it?

So here's my way. You take 10 minutes to write down your problem. You're factual, objective, and you leave out the sarcasm and the CAPITAL LETTERS. After all, most of us are in business anyway, and this is a business transaction, isn't it? You fax/email/send/hand in your submission to the service manager or perhaps even better the warranty manager at the dealership. He is the guy who has the responsibility for authorizing these things.

I had a problem, and it was resolved it in a calm, pleasant, business-like manner to my perfect satisfaction.

timbo

My issue is the consistent overstatement of problems mostly based on third party reports. Often, these go back to a single incident

First, I haven't had any, and I know many other haven't had any. The 8 is my daily drive. I get in, start up and drive off. I run the same maintenance as I have with any car -- check the oil and water every second fill, tyres monthly. I drive the thing out of the garage, turn it off and clean it. Then I drive it back in. No flooding. This car is as trouble-free as any Mazda I have owned, which in turn from my experience have been always been reliable.

Now, with all that, I'm not saying there aren't any problems -- I've seen the flood reports, too and I even have tried to replicate the stated causal factors.

Second, and this is my major point, those represented on this forum and in the US are enthusiasts. They do worry about their cars, and comment on the slightest abnormality. But, anecdotally, I would suggest the sample of owners in these forums represents 10% or less of total owners...and the opinion of those with problems gets amplified across this specialist audience as occurs with any special interest group.

If the problems with the 8 were to the extent reported here, then we would see and hear much more concern across the general population of 8 owners. There would be articles in the trade press, and the motorists' associations would be very active (as was the case with GenIII V8 oil consumption). Is that happening? No!

Finally, there is the anecdotal evidence on the Mondial (Mazda Assist) mechanics who report that the 8 is much more reliable than some other marques they also provide service for. As someone who has owned both BMWs and Range Rovers, I can vouch for that.

Evidence, guys, evidence!

Gomez

I wonder what those guys think about Peugeots??

sco

I don't disagree... I just merely stated a fact that testing proves the presence of problems never the absence and you can't expect someone to get something 100% right first time. I don't disagree that Mazda missed the boat regarding the starting problem.. and it is good they are addressing it. They made a bad assumption (I'm guessing) and they are correcting it.

sco

I never said Mazda didn't do anything wrong... I just merely stated some realities of product development.

Some people on this forum treat every discussion as an argument and try to read too much into what people are saying. If that is the way they behave off forum I'm not surprised they are having difficulty getting things they believe they are entitled to.

sco

No... not the fricken Pewgot thread again!

Revolver

I'm not trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill and it seems Timbo is correct in stating that the reported problems do not necessarily apply to all RX8s sold to date. Obviously if there were wholesale starting issues we'd have heard a lot more about it in the general trade press as Timbo argues.

But, without question a number of cars have been relevantly affected to the extent of requiring a relatively significant upgrade (we're not just talking about replacing one part here).

That was really the point of my initial query. Frankly, I don't want to wait until I'm out the back of Whoop Whoop to discover that yes my car is one of those affected by the start-up problem and won't start. At times it does feel like it is struggling to start but has always managed it so far. How do you document that? Do you time the turnover of the starter motor before ignition takes place???

The fact that Mazda is offering this upgrade to some owners indicates that Mazda at least recognises it as a legitimate problem and not just some gripe dreamed up by an **** enthusiast.

Now, I'm no auto industry expert but it seems to me that if a given part set needs replacing in some cars, why don't the rest of the cars with that same original part set also need replacement?? Or is it something that varies depending on how the car is used?

It is almost as if Mazda knows this is an issue but doesn't want the cost of a complete recall on its hands for the starter motor, battery and plugs (in addition to the recalls we already know about). It seems content to address it on a case by case basis.

Now that might be all the problem requires if it really is an isolated problem perhaps caused by a glitch in the part set in a limited run of cars. But if the problem stems from an inherent inadequacy in the standard part set (assuming no glitches), why aren't all such part sets being replaced?

Sorry for being so long but the thread was kind of spinning off to problems with the car in general and I'm still uncertain what we're supposed to do with this startup problem (i.e. wait until the thing will not start or request Mazda to investigate whether your car is one of those likely to be affected).

Lock & Load

Exactly my point my car on various occassions showed signs of not starting does one have to get towed in before Mazda is prepared to spend the few lousy dollars for the fix we mostly all paid similar price for the car so why should one person get all the upgrades for free and others not

I have meet 3 previous owners who ended up selling at a considerable loss because of the flooding issue , they did not want to have to be concerned with this type of problem in the future , none of them were car people or belonged to this forum .

Its 2005 not 1905 a car should not flood so easily wether hot or cold start and if it does there should be a proper recall and all cars should be fixed , not ones at random .


B...free
michael

timbo

I'll tell you how the car manufacturers decide whether something needs to be upgraded or recalled, and whether it is mandatory or not. For most manufacturers (certainly Mazda and Ford brands), all service records are on-line back to the manufacturer. So they get direct real time data on what problems are out there, how frequent and how serious. They actually have some fairly sophisticated statistcal software to analyse what's in and what's outside these parameters, so they can even tell if someone's trying one on.

Like all businesses, they are not charities and they have to make judgements about the point at which they decide a problem is serious enough either for a recall or to announce an upgrade. They are acutely aware of negative publicity about faults and problems -- yes, they'll try to duck under but if the problem becomes major (eg, Ford Explorer) they will act.

This is not just the motor vehicle industry; this is all modern manufacturing industries; they are well connected through their supply chains to what is happening to their products in the market place, and consumers' reactions to them, and complaints.

I repeat: much as we all may like think otherwise, what you read in this place is not a reliable indicator of how the 8 is fairing across the overall population of sales.

Gomez

This is probably the key point. Dealers have been upgrading batteries etc, in cars that have flooded. Cars that flood, do so (for the most part) because they are subjected to a shut down before full operating temp has been reached (as we here on the forum all know).

As our batteries age, they are less able to apply the full herbs when prolonged cranking is required to clear a flood. A new battery, new plugs, and an updated starter is the fix Mazda has determined that will help prevent a re-occurrence.

Revolver

That all sounds fair enough but it doesn't really answer my query.

Do I deduce from what you're saying that because not enough 8 owners have raised non-starting as a serious issue that Mazda has elected to treat it as an 'under-the-carpet' type problem and will only address it as and when it occurs to individual owners??

That still sounds to me to be a pretty cavalier approach. If they are aware the particular parts aren't up to scratch for normal use (as in treating the car like you would any other) I believe they have the onus to address it.

Otherwise, at what point do you do something about these things - do you simply wait until it hits critical mass and risk an even more adverse reaction? Seems to me people are going to be a lot less pissed off having these parts replaced during a routine service than they would be by their car refusing to start because it has either flooded or the battery and plugs have given up the ghost long before they should have.

Revolver

Okay, but why are some cars flooding/not starting and others aren't when surely modes of use aren't that dissimilar?

Does it mean that the part set is up to scratch in some cars but not others? I mean, surely there must be a reason for it that Mazda has figured out or am I expecting a bit much here? If they have diagnosed the particular cause, surely they can work out which cars have the problem (i.e. the offending parts) and offer replacement parts to the owners of those cars. I reckon simply sitting back and waiting for owners to discover such a serious problem as failure to start the motor is pretty slapdash.

timbo

Well, Mazda is the only organisation that can answer your question specifically.

However, I would suggest modes of use can be quite dissimilar -- I bet my use is much different to yours, Dave, and -- perhaps more importantly -- the 8's PCM has what is known as a 'learning' ECU -- in other words, it adopts characteristics based around the 'typical' use it find the driver undertaking, and trims fuel mix etc for this. .....someone else can take over here......sco???

Mazda will be monitoring faults according to a statistical formula, and advising dealers of particular 'upgrade' actions to take where specific symptoms are raised by owners. But because of the nature of the technology and the varying patterns/styles of use, I would suggest the statistical data is not yet suggesting a blanket program...rather, what seems to be a fairly relaxed approach to offering the upgrade where owners raise particular symptoms with their dealer.

sco

timbo,

I doubt the learning has much impact on the start of the RX-8. I don't have specific info on how the learning of the RX-8 PCM works, but if we make the assumption that the RX-8 follows the onboard diagnostics specs to the T then we can make the following argument...

The RX-8 supports reading both a long term and short term fuel trim value.

Short term fuel trim (STFT) relates to tuning the amount of fuel to maintain optimum performance of closed loop (and to be clear I mean performance of the closed loop system in meeting its goals, not performance as in how fast the car goes).

Long term fuel trim (LTFT) relates to fuel trim information that is kept in non volatile or keep alive memory (and thus, across multiple starts) and may apply to both closed and open loop. If long term fuel trim isn't being used in open loop then we should get readings of 0% for LTFT while the car is in open loop.

I don't have any data handy that shows the behaviour of long term fuel trim and short term fuel trim in relation to fuel system status (open vs closed loop)... but I'll try and grab some on my next run.

On a side note. I did some spirited driving yesterday and found my car much harder to start after that driving. It seemed OK this morning though. My exhaust tips are also a shade of grey too, not the usual black. Interesting.

Ltd

Mazda must know the problem with the starter motor because. I have a leaflet attached to my owners manual, for my 05 RX8 says electrical system has been changed .
Information currently in owners manual Starter manual transmission 12 V-1.8kw
New information Starter 12V-2.0kw .

lexic

I would like to make it known that my 8 never actually flooded, just that I noticed crank times were getting longer, this was my only complaint to the dealer and with that they automatically upgraded starter, battery and plugs. (no wise cracks about the rest of the stuff i've had replaced!)

Gomez

The old (Jan '04) 6 spd starter was a 1400 watt jobbie, the 1800 watt one was on the automatics.

timbo

So, it would appear Mazda has decided the original starter motor was not up to spec, made an in-line change, and will replace for anyone with symptoms

Revolver

Well that's good enough for me.

I've got some symptoms. I haven't kept records of it because my approach isn't as scientific as labrat's but I'll raise it politely and see where I get.

timbo

Aaaah! Enlightement at last! Don't forget to take a piece of paper and speak softly but assertively....IT SEEMS THAT IF YOU COMMUNICATE LIKE THIS YOU MAY EXPERIENCE A PROBLEM!!

Gomez

Actually, judging by the info provided by Ltd, it looks like they've made two running changes. Gone from 1400 to 1800 watts at some stage (probably rejigged the auto starter to use on the manual), then gone a step further and upgraded to a 2kw starter.

I have the part number of the new US starter, but I'm unsure whether MA use the same part number system. Anyone care to crawl under their new '05 6 spd and copy the starter part number down?

xxup

MIne will be at Wakefield for the Nats.. You are welcome to spend as much time as you like under it to take any number that takes your interest...

Revolver

Spare me the condescension. It was a serious query that I pursued politely until I understood my position.





AND I NEVER SHOUT!