GAME OVER: Natalia is dead, long live Natalia (long thread/rant + useful information)
02-16-2012, 08:36 PM
#1
GAME OVER: Natalia is dead, long live Natalia (long thread/rant + useful information)
GAME OVER: Natalia is dead, long live Natalia (long thread/rant + useful information you should know)
This is going to be long because I feel very disheartened and disappointed. Finally, came up with the cash recently to do the full compression test/check. Avante Mazda charged me $186 + tax and then the Mazda Zoom-Power Cleaning process which was $125+33+ tax, followed up by a 2nd compression test (no charge) to see if anything was better. The results are in and I need a new engine. There’s a lot that I want to say and hopefully I’ll structure it so it’s easy to read enough. I assure you it’s worth the read even though it’s going to very long. I feel that writing this will help others at least around the Toronto area because we share similar climate/driving patterns/traffic patterns that your vehicle will be exposed to. I did the compression test because I have done absolutely everything I can to diagnose this middle-high rpm rattle since summer 2011, and none of what I did found the solution. This was the last logical thing to do.
First I will discuss the results and then discuss my maintenance practices followed by personal thoughts and future maintenance on engine no. 2.
Results
2007 GT 6MT, purchased BRAND NEW, completely maintained by myself.
Mileage: 98,000km
Units: kgf/cm^2
Rotor 1: 5.9 6.2 6.3 RPM: 307
Rotor 2: 6.1 5.9 6.2 RPM: 303
Normalized to 250 rpm using calculator
Rotor 1: 4.85 5.15 5.25 RPM: 250
Rotor 2: 5.12 4.92 5.22 RPM: 250
Specified Standard compression @ 250 = 8.5
Minimum Compression @ 250 = 6.9
These are truly disgusting numbers, and I am shocked to know that the car still starts and drives perfectly fine (although a little bit harder starting). In fact with numbers this low, I probably already needed a new engine last summer at around 85,000 km when I started hearing that noise. I am covered under the 5yr/100,000km powertrain warranty (not even in the extended rx8 engine warranty period yet). Interesting thing to note is that after the zoom-power cleaner, the tech reported even lower compression numbers and as I was driving the car home, it sounded worse than ever.
Maintenance practices
Car purchased new in Oct 2007. 4000 km oil changes using Castrol GTX 5W20 and genuine oil filter. Car is daily driven and always driven gently until engine warm before hard driving (under 4k rpm). Car is redlined daily, anywhere from 1 – 20 times per day (yes 20 times per day), so it’s redlined quite often to keep carbon away. Plugs changed at 48,000km, then again at 72,000km. Coils and wires changed at 72,000km. Car has never had CEL’s for anything like MAF sensor/CAT/O2 sensors/misfires. The ignition system aspect of the car was kept in top shape. Running with K&N air filter which is cleaned and re-oiled yearly. MAF sensor cleaned twice a year. Battery replaced with Optima Redtop in fall 2011 (see those excellent crank rpms!) Since the issues started last year I did a bunch of decarboning steps to try to fix things. I did BG44K and seafoam in the gas tank. I did an induction seafoam and a throttle body UIM seafoam. I also did a little seafoaming in the OMP system. I won’t discuss the maintenance on other parts that are not related to the engine, but I assure you it is done well. In a nutshell, the car is as well maintained above and beyond manufacturer guidelines.
Thoughts on failure
I am sad and happy at the same time. Anyone in GTA area that knows me to some degree will understand why I feel this way. Feel so betrayed and now I start to think of things to blame. I have come to several conclusions by now after doing some more research on engine failures on the forum.
1) Using 5W20 is a JOKE. I used to believe what the manual says, but not after reading more into it and discovering that everywhere else in the world the RX-8 manual specifies 5W30. But as a new car owner, what can you do when the manufacturer threatens to void your warranty if you use a different weight oil than what’s recommended. I firmly believe now that 5W20 is simply too thin to endure the constant redlining.
2) More related to the 5W20 as a joke, I discovered another disgusting lie. I now firmly believe that synthetic oil is the way to go, and in no way can it harm the engine. There is an online manual from Mazda Japan’s website for the RX-8. In it was written that the RX-8 can use several different weights of oil recommended. It says SYNTHETIC 0W30 is okay. It also says Conventional 5W30 or 10W30. Then in one small section, it says “Eco oil: 0W20 synthetic”. WOW…. Just WOW… There is more proof for the matter why we get fucked over in North America. The only reason we are spec’ed for 5W20 here is because of the CAFÉ requirements. Even Norway/Sweden RX-8’s are running 5W30 and they are as cold if not colder than we are here in Canada. I’ve always been speculating for the longest time but just wanted to give the benefit of the doubt to Mazda. Every time I pour that oil into the engine, I look at this vegetable oil-like viscosity and I think to myself, how the heck can this thin liquid that look like cooking oil protect my engine at 9000 rpm? Well now I know, it can’t. It needs to be thicker.
3) More thoughts to back this up… so they forced 5W20 in US and Canada markets and realized that all these engines are coming back with premature failures. Mazda doesn’t a lawsuit in their hands with tons of engines coming back with less than 100,000km, but at the same time, they can’t afford to replace too many engines, so as a compromise they offered it to Canada only. The entire population of Canada is about the same as the state of California. California probably has more RX-8’s in the entire state than Canada does as a country. It makes Mazda look better this way, but they can’t afford to replace all the blown engines running 5W20 in the US and Canada cause they would be out of business giving out free parts.
Advice for other people
I have reason to believe that a lot of people are in fact driving around with below-spec engines but they just don’t know it. My car still starts/drives pulls to redline with NO flashing CEL or any CEL’s at all to indicate an engine problem. Thanks to a strong battery and ignition system is probably the only reason why I can still drive with such low compression. As for fuel consumption, I am getting around 280 – 300 km until the light comes on. Mostly city driving. This may be a flag for low compression if you have fuel economy around my numbers. However, if I cruise at 105 km/h, I can still get 130km for ¼ tank, so fuel economy is not an absolute measure that your engine is going south. Another tell-tale sign, is the mid-high rpm rattle at WOT. If you don’t know what that sounds like INVITE ME for a test drive and I will tell you if you have it or not. I had it since spring 2011 and only now did I do the compression test and I am FAR below the min spec. Meaning when it started making the noise, it was probably already low. My advice to you is, if you know your car is new-ish coils/plugs and everything is as well kept as you can be, if you are getting strange rattling noises, really consider getting a compression check. The compression will b $186 + tax and if it checks out, then you’re good and you can stop there. If it fails, then you have to do their decarb and only then if that fails afterwards can the dealership claim a warranty repair through Mazda. The total cost is $388 tax-in.
As a side note, Avante Mazda is an EXCELLENT dealership so far. They handled my case very professionally and no bullshit. They even recommended to change the pilot bearing and release bearing when the new engine comes because they notice I get a lot of clutch whine from normal wear/tear/age.
Future maintenance on new engine
Some things I am HIGHLY considering now is Synthetic 0W40 or 0W30 (as Mazda Japan even recommends 0W30 synthetic). Idemitsu Premix @ 4oz per tank. And instead of 4000 km oil changes, extending that to 6000 km instead seeing that frequent oil changes DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in my case. It wasn’t the oil-age that was the problem… it was the thinness of that killed it.
I am tired now… so disappointed. Feel so discouraged and betrayed.... when so much hardwork and dedication to keep it well and it falls flat in your face.
This is going to be long because I feel very disheartened and disappointed. Finally, came up with the cash recently to do the full compression test/check. Avante Mazda charged me $186 + tax and then the Mazda Zoom-Power Cleaning process which was $125+33+ tax, followed up by a 2nd compression test (no charge) to see if anything was better. The results are in and I need a new engine. There’s a lot that I want to say and hopefully I’ll structure it so it’s easy to read enough. I assure you it’s worth the read even though it’s going to very long. I feel that writing this will help others at least around the Toronto area because we share similar climate/driving patterns/traffic patterns that your vehicle will be exposed to. I did the compression test because I have done absolutely everything I can to diagnose this middle-high rpm rattle since summer 2011, and none of what I did found the solution. This was the last logical thing to do.
First I will discuss the results and then discuss my maintenance practices followed by personal thoughts and future maintenance on engine no. 2.
Results
2007 GT 6MT, purchased BRAND NEW, completely maintained by myself.
Mileage: 98,000km
Units: kgf/cm^2
Rotor 1: 5.9 6.2 6.3 RPM: 307
Rotor 2: 6.1 5.9 6.2 RPM: 303
Normalized to 250 rpm using calculator
Rotor 1: 4.85 5.15 5.25 RPM: 250
Rotor 2: 5.12 4.92 5.22 RPM: 250
Specified Standard compression @ 250 = 8.5
Minimum Compression @ 250 = 6.9
These are truly disgusting numbers, and I am shocked to know that the car still starts and drives perfectly fine (although a little bit harder starting). In fact with numbers this low, I probably already needed a new engine last summer at around 85,000 km when I started hearing that noise. I am covered under the 5yr/100,000km powertrain warranty (not even in the extended rx8 engine warranty period yet). Interesting thing to note is that after the zoom-power cleaner, the tech reported even lower compression numbers and as I was driving the car home, it sounded worse than ever.
Maintenance practices
Car purchased new in Oct 2007. 4000 km oil changes using Castrol GTX 5W20 and genuine oil filter. Car is daily driven and always driven gently until engine warm before hard driving (under 4k rpm). Car is redlined daily, anywhere from 1 – 20 times per day (yes 20 times per day), so it’s redlined quite often to keep carbon away. Plugs changed at 48,000km, then again at 72,000km. Coils and wires changed at 72,000km. Car has never had CEL’s for anything like MAF sensor/CAT/O2 sensors/misfires. The ignition system aspect of the car was kept in top shape. Running with K&N air filter which is cleaned and re-oiled yearly. MAF sensor cleaned twice a year. Battery replaced with Optima Redtop in fall 2011 (see those excellent crank rpms!) Since the issues started last year I did a bunch of decarboning steps to try to fix things. I did BG44K and seafoam in the gas tank. I did an induction seafoam and a throttle body UIM seafoam. I also did a little seafoaming in the OMP system. I won’t discuss the maintenance on other parts that are not related to the engine, but I assure you it is done well. In a nutshell, the car is as well maintained above and beyond manufacturer guidelines.
Thoughts on failure
I am sad and happy at the same time. Anyone in GTA area that knows me to some degree will understand why I feel this way. Feel so betrayed and now I start to think of things to blame. I have come to several conclusions by now after doing some more research on engine failures on the forum.
1) Using 5W20 is a JOKE. I used to believe what the manual says, but not after reading more into it and discovering that everywhere else in the world the RX-8 manual specifies 5W30. But as a new car owner, what can you do when the manufacturer threatens to void your warranty if you use a different weight oil than what’s recommended. I firmly believe now that 5W20 is simply too thin to endure the constant redlining.
2) More related to the 5W20 as a joke, I discovered another disgusting lie. I now firmly believe that synthetic oil is the way to go, and in no way can it harm the engine. There is an online manual from Mazda Japan’s website for the RX-8. In it was written that the RX-8 can use several different weights of oil recommended. It says SYNTHETIC 0W30 is okay. It also says Conventional 5W30 or 10W30. Then in one small section, it says “Eco oil: 0W20 synthetic”. WOW…. Just WOW… There is more proof for the matter why we get fucked over in North America. The only reason we are spec’ed for 5W20 here is because of the CAFÉ requirements. Even Norway/Sweden RX-8’s are running 5W30 and they are as cold if not colder than we are here in Canada. I’ve always been speculating for the longest time but just wanted to give the benefit of the doubt to Mazda. Every time I pour that oil into the engine, I look at this vegetable oil-like viscosity and I think to myself, how the heck can this thin liquid that look like cooking oil protect my engine at 9000 rpm? Well now I know, it can’t. It needs to be thicker.
3) More thoughts to back this up… so they forced 5W20 in US and Canada markets and realized that all these engines are coming back with premature failures. Mazda doesn’t a lawsuit in their hands with tons of engines coming back with less than 100,000km, but at the same time, they can’t afford to replace too many engines, so as a compromise they offered it to Canada only. The entire population of Canada is about the same as the state of California. California probably has more RX-8’s in the entire state than Canada does as a country. It makes Mazda look better this way, but they can’t afford to replace all the blown engines running 5W20 in the US and Canada cause they would be out of business giving out free parts.
Advice for other people
I have reason to believe that a lot of people are in fact driving around with below-spec engines but they just don’t know it. My car still starts/drives pulls to redline with NO flashing CEL or any CEL’s at all to indicate an engine problem. Thanks to a strong battery and ignition system is probably the only reason why I can still drive with such low compression. As for fuel consumption, I am getting around 280 – 300 km until the light comes on. Mostly city driving. This may be a flag for low compression if you have fuel economy around my numbers. However, if I cruise at 105 km/h, I can still get 130km for ¼ tank, so fuel economy is not an absolute measure that your engine is going south. Another tell-tale sign, is the mid-high rpm rattle at WOT. If you don’t know what that sounds like INVITE ME for a test drive and I will tell you if you have it or not. I had it since spring 2011 and only now did I do the compression test and I am FAR below the min spec. Meaning when it started making the noise, it was probably already low. My advice to you is, if you know your car is new-ish coils/plugs and everything is as well kept as you can be, if you are getting strange rattling noises, really consider getting a compression check. The compression will b $186 + tax and if it checks out, then you’re good and you can stop there. If it fails, then you have to do their decarb and only then if that fails afterwards can the dealership claim a warranty repair through Mazda. The total cost is $388 tax-in.
As a side note, Avante Mazda is an EXCELLENT dealership so far. They handled my case very professionally and no bullshit. They even recommended to change the pilot bearing and release bearing when the new engine comes because they notice I get a lot of clutch whine from normal wear/tear/age.
Future maintenance on new engine
Some things I am HIGHLY considering now is Synthetic 0W40 or 0W30 (as Mazda Japan even recommends 0W30 synthetic). Idemitsu Premix @ 4oz per tank. And instead of 4000 km oil changes, extending that to 6000 km instead seeing that frequent oil changes DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in my case. It wasn’t the oil-age that was the problem… it was the thinness of that killed it.
I am tired now… so disappointed. Feel so discouraged and betrayed.... when so much hardwork and dedication to keep it well and it falls flat in your face.
02-16-2012, 09:35 PM
#5
Yea my engine was about there, I had some idle issues here and there and a few rough starts. overall the car felt healthy.
My guess is sideseal shrinkage and some sticky apex seal springs, nothing to do with oil weights. Decarb just jack **** once it hardens enough, it will remove some of the loose stuff that hasn't caked itself on yet but that's about it.
I know everyone on here praises the decarb/seafoam, running a sohn, etc etc etc. Fact is these engines come out of the box with super loose side seal clearances. Its really just a matter of time for side seal shrinkage to occur and you start seeing decreases in compression.
TL;DR
Sorry man, that sucks. Every rotary is unique and destined to fail eventually.
My guess is sideseal shrinkage and some sticky apex seal springs, nothing to do with oil weights. Decarb just jack **** once it hardens enough, it will remove some of the loose stuff that hasn't caked itself on yet but that's about it.
I know everyone on here praises the decarb/seafoam, running a sohn, etc etc etc. Fact is these engines come out of the box with super loose side seal clearances. Its really just a matter of time for side seal shrinkage to occur and you start seeing decreases in compression.
TL;DR
Sorry man, that sucks. Every rotary is unique and destined to fail eventually.
02-16-2012, 10:02 PM
#7
http://www.mazda.co.jp/service/owner...x-8/70201.html
http://www.mazda.co.jp/service/parts...e_renesis.html
Use google chrome to translate....
also... http://minkara.carview.co.jp/userid/.../blog/8752186/
Showing synthetic 0W30 as official Mazda spec'ed rotary oil....
Conventional 5W20... thanks for blowing my engine
http://www.mazda.co.jp/service/parts...e_renesis.html
Use google chrome to translate....
also... http://minkara.carview.co.jp/userid/.../blog/8752186/
Showing synthetic 0W30 as official Mazda spec'ed rotary oil....
Conventional 5W20... thanks for blowing my engine
Last edited by Footman; 02-16-2012 at 10:05 PM.
02-16-2012, 10:58 PM
#8
Just want to re-iterate this to people... I just drove back home from my gf' house... started up no problem.. no rough idle, no CEL, no sputtering nothing....
Redlined a couple of times on the highway, no noise nothing.... all smooth....
AND YET THIS IS ALL HAPPENING WITH the compression results that you see above.
So let this be a warning to you all, low compression can happen with absolutely nothing seemingly out of the ordinary except for intermittent noises and low fuel mileage.
Redlined a couple of times on the highway, no noise nothing.... all smooth....
AND YET THIS IS ALL HAPPENING WITH the compression results that you see above.
So let this be a warning to you all, low compression can happen with absolutely nothing seemingly out of the ordinary except for intermittent noises and low fuel mileage.
02-16-2012, 11:09 PM
#9
Metatron
iTrader: (1)
What has the oil got to do with your crappy compression ?
How can you make the leap of logic that the oil in your bearings has ANY effect on the apex seals?....any more than using yellow coolant instead of green would, or nitrogen in your tires?
If the main bearings seized or the oil sludged up, you could blame oil, but weak compression does not compute......
You got 100,000kms, even redlining twenty times a day. I'd hafta say ya done good.
How can you make the leap of logic that the oil in your bearings has ANY effect on the apex seals?....any more than using yellow coolant instead of green would, or nitrogen in your tires?
If the main bearings seized or the oil sludged up, you could blame oil, but weak compression does not compute......
You got 100,000kms, even redlining twenty times a day. I'd hafta say ya done good.
02-17-2012, 12:46 AM
#10
my other car is a 787b
I have to agree. I hope the dealership resolves this in a way you like but I don't see anything in your post to correlate a 1 stop change in oil viscosity to engine compression.
No smoke at startup? Other than a longer time to engine fire everything else seems normal (funny noise excepted)? This shop deal with rotaries often (lots of Rx-8 FUD in my experience at some dealerships)?
I don't get the seafoam thing but regular maintenance is the best insurance. I'd like to hear what a veteran independent shop would have to say but if you are getting a new engine via Mazda already we wont get to find out.
I do hope this dosen't put you off Rx-8 ownership. Good luck!
No smoke at startup? Other than a longer time to engine fire everything else seems normal (funny noise excepted)? This shop deal with rotaries often (lots of Rx-8 FUD in my experience at some dealerships)?
I don't get the seafoam thing but regular maintenance is the best insurance. I'd like to hear what a veteran independent shop would have to say but if you are getting a new engine via Mazda already we wont get to find out.
I do hope this dosen't put you off Rx-8 ownership. Good luck!
Last edited by Ianspeed; 02-17-2012 at 12:52 AM. Reason: answered my own question
02-17-2012, 03:29 AM
#13
Uhm... how much have you spent trying not to do the compression test? I'm not trying to be an *** but trusting third parties may help save cash at times 
If you choose to premix, don't be shy. 4oz\tank is a joke and technically useless. I hate ounces so i'd say 200\250g per tank is a good average.
Any ignition, catalytic converter and fuelling information is good to share, too.
If you choose to premix, don't be shy. 4oz\tank is a joke and technically useless. I hate ounces so i'd say 200\250g per tank is a good average.
Any ignition, catalytic converter and fuelling information is good to share, too.
02-17-2012, 04:39 AM
#14
what is your mpg? regular commute to work? i'm at 136 000 and having issues with power loss wot at 6 grand, but can still redline if I feather it, no noises, 20mpg average mostly highway, 75km one way commute.
I should add i think its my fuel pump, or SSV
I should add i think its my fuel pump, or SSV
02-17-2012, 07:29 AM
#16
this scares the crap out of me cause it happened to someone who followed mazda's service schedule to a T. If low compression is happening to someone who is very good at maintaining their vehicle, then anyone can have this sort of problem in the future (me included) and that gets me worried.
02-17-2012, 07:52 AM
#17
Spinning Dorito Junkie
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Sorry to hear about your issues, and thanks for taking the time to post all of your findings.
Hopefully you have better luck with your replacement.
However, I agree with the above. How does the weight of the oil impact compression?
(That being said, I've been running 5W30 since the day after my Mazda maintenance package expires and I've been pre-mixing for years.)
My 04 just hit 80,000km before it went away for the winter and is out of the engine warranty. While I'm a bit concerned that something will happen eventually, I'm not getting into a dump the car panic. The car still starts easy and runs strong with pretty good MPG, although it has rattle at high RPM, it's done that since it was new.
A replacement engine from Mazmart is $3750, so even with shipping duty/taxes call it $5K. That's a lot, but, whatever I could sell my car for +$5K doesn't add up to anything close to enough to buy a car I like more.
Either way, good luck with your replacement.
Hopefully you have better luck with your replacement.
However, I agree with the above. How does the weight of the oil impact compression?
(That being said, I've been running 5W30 since the day after my Mazda maintenance package expires and I've been pre-mixing for years.)
My 04 just hit 80,000km before it went away for the winter and is out of the engine warranty. While I'm a bit concerned that something will happen eventually, I'm not getting into a dump the car panic. The car still starts easy and runs strong with pretty good MPG, although it has rattle at high RPM, it's done that since it was new.
A replacement engine from Mazmart is $3750, so even with shipping duty/taxes call it $5K. That's a lot, but, whatever I could sell my car for +$5K doesn't add up to anything close to enough to buy a car I like more.
Either way, good luck with your replacement.
02-17-2012, 08:09 AM
#18
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What has the oil got to do with your crappy compression ?
How can you make the leap of logic that the oil in your bearings has ANY effect on the apex seals?....any more than using yellow coolant instead of green would, or nitrogen in your tires?
If the main bearings seized or the oil sludged up, you could blame oil, but weak compression does not compute......
How can you make the leap of logic that the oil in your bearings has ANY effect on the apex seals?....any more than using yellow coolant instead of green would, or nitrogen in your tires?
If the main bearings seized or the oil sludged up, you could blame oil, but weak compression does not compute......
Let's backup here because the oil issue (and 20w in particular) is often misunderstood. I do believe that Mazda's choosing of a 20w oil to be a compromise on many fronts. It helped increase fuel mileage which is one of the major negatives of the car. This is a compromise that we don't have to make as owners and the fact that we are aware of it gives an advantage.
That said, we have to remember that there are two totally different lubrication functions that engine oil provides to the rotary. The one that directly affects compression is the injection via the OMP. While I know Mazda has made many flash revisions to increase OMP output, I maintain that it still isn't enough to ensure seal protection. Also remember that OMP injection is just as much about cooling as it is lubrication. I honestly believe the accessPORT is the best solution to this issue so you can raise your OMP amounts to protect your engine.
As Stealth mentioned, oil viscosity affects could only be determined by examining your bearings to determine how much wear took place. Bearing lubrication is the other major function (as well as cooling). Viscosity plays a much smaller role in the combustion chamber than it does inside your bearings.
The same issue plays into your oil change intervals. If you're looking to determine how long you should run oil your best bet is to get it tested. In the case of synthetic oil, the oil itself will last forever but the additive packages are what break down requiring an oil change.
I have no doubt your attention to detail aided in your RX8 lasting this long. I wouldn't look at your maintenance and think it was for nothing. Keep it up!
02-17-2012, 08:31 AM
#19
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sorry to hear that Footman.
Agree with Rotary-RX8 that you followed that maintenance to a T
good luck with the new engine... at least they won't deny you warranty like all the other horror stories that i've read
care to take my 8 for a spin when i pull it out from winter hibernation?
I do get the high rpm rattle, but I never thought too much about it, as a lot of people say they get that. Don't know too much about this "loss of power" that everyone is talking about.
Agree with Rotary-RX8 that you followed that maintenance to a T
good luck with the new engine... at least they won't deny you warranty like all the other horror stories that i've read
care to take my 8 for a spin when i pull it out from winter hibernation?
I do get the high rpm rattle, but I never thought too much about it, as a lot of people say they get that. Don't know too much about this "loss of power" that everyone is talking about.
02-17-2012, 09:42 AM
#20
More info to try to answer everyone's questions
I bought the car in Oct 2007, and by Dec 2007, the MSP16 flash was out and I was updated with it, and currently the MSP16 flash is still the latest one available with the highest oil injection maps available from Mazda.
My oil consumption is normal, not high or low. I have inspected the OMP lines and they look semi-clear (outside of the lines dirty and foggy). This inspection was done last fall. Oil was topped up as usual. I usually go through 1/4 of 1L every 1000km.
I do not premix and also do not have the Sohn adapter.
No smoke at start up, no sweet smells in exhaust. Coolant was flushed and and changed last fall with FL22. No drop in coolant levels suggests coolant is not leaking into the engine. No puddles in the ground underneath the car; nothing is leaking.
Thermostat checked out okay, on cruise maintains 82 C. Tested out all fan relays... Both fans turn on at 98 C, and shuts off at 94 C. Driving in city, stop/go, it usually is between that range in Toronto.
I can't comment on whether it's the truth that oil viscosity was the leading cause of poor compression because I don't know that for a fact, it is just my theory. Because I am not running premix or sohn, the only oil in my system is the Castrol GTX 5W20, and that is what's being injected in to the seals. Maybe for the average driver 5W20 is sufficient, i.e. redlining once a day, but you consider the harsh environment that my engine goes through. It's handling daily stop/go rush hour traffic in Toronto for almost 5 years. Been through more than the average redlines per day and in general driving between 5k and 9k when I feel spirited. The thin viscosity is not enough protection for my style of driving.
The race teams are running 50W oil because their engines are being subjected to nothing below 5k rpm and pretty much only WOT everywhere else. Then again, their engines get rebuilt shortly after with new seals and such. The compelling info is that, why is it only north america specs 5W20? It's not weather related, other parts of the world get just as cold, but they are recommending a heavier weight oil. The heavier weight oil is thicker and provides better protection at high temperatures. When you're consistently between 5k and 9k, your engine is running hotter than most "gently driven RX-8's".
Ambient temperatures in Toronto go anywhere between -25 and +35 C. Engine is subjected to a very wide temperature variation.
On an interesting note... say the average amount of redlines I do per day is 5... I've owned the car for approx 1580 days now. That means the car has gone through 7900 WOT REDLINES... wow... I don't know if a piston engine can handle that.
Also a lot of you seem to say that I've done quite well... but aren't most people getting engine failures after 100,000 MILES, not km? Shouldn't this be considered premature engine failure for a rotary engine? Or am I just expecting too much from the car
I bought the car in Oct 2007, and by Dec 2007, the MSP16 flash was out and I was updated with it, and currently the MSP16 flash is still the latest one available with the highest oil injection maps available from Mazda.
My oil consumption is normal, not high or low. I have inspected the OMP lines and they look semi-clear (outside of the lines dirty and foggy). This inspection was done last fall. Oil was topped up as usual. I usually go through 1/4 of 1L every 1000km.
I do not premix and also do not have the Sohn adapter.
No smoke at start up, no sweet smells in exhaust. Coolant was flushed and and changed last fall with FL22. No drop in coolant levels suggests coolant is not leaking into the engine. No puddles in the ground underneath the car; nothing is leaking.
Thermostat checked out okay, on cruise maintains 82 C. Tested out all fan relays... Both fans turn on at 98 C, and shuts off at 94 C. Driving in city, stop/go, it usually is between that range in Toronto.
I can't comment on whether it's the truth that oil viscosity was the leading cause of poor compression because I don't know that for a fact, it is just my theory. Because I am not running premix or sohn, the only oil in my system is the Castrol GTX 5W20, and that is what's being injected in to the seals. Maybe for the average driver 5W20 is sufficient, i.e. redlining once a day, but you consider the harsh environment that my engine goes through. It's handling daily stop/go rush hour traffic in Toronto for almost 5 years. Been through more than the average redlines per day and in general driving between 5k and 9k when I feel spirited. The thin viscosity is not enough protection for my style of driving.
The race teams are running 50W oil because their engines are being subjected to nothing below 5k rpm and pretty much only WOT everywhere else. Then again, their engines get rebuilt shortly after with new seals and such. The compelling info is that, why is it only north america specs 5W20? It's not weather related, other parts of the world get just as cold, but they are recommending a heavier weight oil. The heavier weight oil is thicker and provides better protection at high temperatures. When you're consistently between 5k and 9k, your engine is running hotter than most "gently driven RX-8's".
Ambient temperatures in Toronto go anywhere between -25 and +35 C. Engine is subjected to a very wide temperature variation.
On an interesting note... say the average amount of redlines I do per day is 5... I've owned the car for approx 1580 days now. That means the car has gone through 7900 WOT REDLINES... wow... I don't know if a piston engine can handle that.
Also a lot of you seem to say that I've done quite well... but aren't most people getting engine failures after 100,000 MILES, not km? Shouldn't this be considered premature engine failure for a rotary engine? Or am I just expecting too much from the car
Last edited by Footman; 02-17-2012 at 09:46 AM.
02-17-2012, 09:47 AM
#22
0.25l of oil every 1000km... under normal conditions you should add 1kg around every 2000km (Kinda vague and depends on driving habits, i'd say 1500\3000km as a range).
Since you mention stop and go traffic that's the average i notice.
Without taking the engine apart it's hard to see what happened anyway, i have opened some engines that had abnormal omp shaft wear, the first steps were useless as a result.
Since you mention stop and go traffic that's the average i notice.
Without taking the engine apart it's hard to see what happened anyway, i have opened some engines that had abnormal omp shaft wear, the first steps were useless as a result.
02-17-2012, 09:54 AM
#23
To answer further question... coils were checked with timing light (since the Mazda coil check procedure was useless).
Fuel practices, only used Shell V-power 91, nothing else. Fuel often runned down to YELLOW before filling up. But I'm going to stop this practice now because I realize it's not good for the pump and cause overheating. The fuel pump is not dying from overheating condition because I did an experiment where I had the high-rpm rattle (suspect possible fuel starvation, not providing enough fuel pressure so the computer leans out the AFR). This happened at low fuel. I stopped at gas station, it was 0C outside so I know the fuel is cool. Filled it up with gas, and drove it and it still made the same noises. If the fuel was cooling down a supposedly overheated pump, then it would no longer be hot now, so it wasn't the fuel pump issue. Furthermore, if I wasn't maintaining fuel pressure my car would be dying at idle/stalling and would see less fuel being used, but that wasn't the case.
Also I went to listen to the fuel relay when turning the key to ignition ACC and I can hear the relay clicking and the pump priming.
I pulled the CAT out initially thinking it was a CAT issue, looked inside and took pictures. The honeycomb is intact. I shook it and banged it and that was intact as well. I then suspected it might be the CAT shield expanding when hot causing the rattle so I took gearworm clamps and clamped down the CAT and also clamped down the exhaust header. That was not the reason for the noise afterall and the shields are fine.
Fuel practices, only used Shell V-power 91, nothing else. Fuel often runned down to YELLOW before filling up. But I'm going to stop this practice now because I realize it's not good for the pump and cause overheating. The fuel pump is not dying from overheating condition because I did an experiment where I had the high-rpm rattle (suspect possible fuel starvation, not providing enough fuel pressure so the computer leans out the AFR). This happened at low fuel. I stopped at gas station, it was 0C outside so I know the fuel is cool. Filled it up with gas, and drove it and it still made the same noises. If the fuel was cooling down a supposedly overheated pump, then it would no longer be hot now, so it wasn't the fuel pump issue. Furthermore, if I wasn't maintaining fuel pressure my car would be dying at idle/stalling and would see less fuel being used, but that wasn't the case.
Also I went to listen to the fuel relay when turning the key to ignition ACC and I can hear the relay clicking and the pump priming.
I pulled the CAT out initially thinking it was a CAT issue, looked inside and took pictures. The honeycomb is intact. I shook it and banged it and that was intact as well. I then suspected it might be the CAT shield expanding when hot causing the rattle so I took gearworm clamps and clamped down the CAT and also clamped down the exhaust header. That was not the reason for the noise afterall and the shields are fine.
02-17-2012, 09:57 AM
#24
SSV and VDI were inspected for worn shafts or stuck-seized due to carbonization. I could move bboth freely by hand and there was no axial play on the shaft.... so I ruled all those out too.
I also fixed the MIAC noise by installing the coolant restrictor orifice, that's the only thing that I felt successful in the past year. The Mazdaspeed exhaust develop several cracks over the course of heat/cold cycles from daily driving all year round in Toronto, and that has been fixed for good now. I had a shop weld custom supporting braces in critical areas near the where the pipe/canisters meet. That eliminated the exhaust rattle.
Throttle body plate is inspected clean and no play on shaft. The plate moves freely also, in excellent condition.
Alternator output all verified good and within specs with a DC Amp-clamp on B+ cable from alternator. I made sure of this by turning on all electrics in vehicle with highbeam on and stereo on volume and current readings are good.
I also fixed the MIAC noise by installing the coolant restrictor orifice, that's the only thing that I felt successful in the past year. The Mazdaspeed exhaust develop several cracks over the course of heat/cold cycles from daily driving all year round in Toronto, and that has been fixed for good now. I had a shop weld custom supporting braces in critical areas near the where the pipe/canisters meet. That eliminated the exhaust rattle.
Throttle body plate is inspected clean and no play on shaft. The plate moves freely also, in excellent condition.
Alternator output all verified good and within specs with a DC Amp-clamp on B+ cable from alternator. I made sure of this by turning on all electrics in vehicle with highbeam on and stereo on volume and current readings are good.
