GAME OVER: Natalia is dead, long live Natalia (long thread/rant + useful information)
02-18-2012, 10:24 AM
#51
I'm not a technical guy or anything but I run Eneos 5w-20 full synthetic and I still add one quart between oil changes just like I did when I ran the oem Mazda 5w-20. I don't drive my car in the winter and I think I'm going to change to a 5w-30 or 40 in the spring.
02-19-2012, 09:35 AM
#53
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It's just rather unlikely that all 6 apex seals are sticking to the same degree. If you think about how a rotor chamber is sealed - it's sealed on both ends by the apex and corner seals, but the longer section of the chamber is sealed against the side housing by the side seals. Side seal wear would cause an even reduction in compression in all chambers as you are seeing here.
02-19-2012, 03:30 PM
#54
Rockie Mountain Newbie
I have to point out the obvious, since you're overlooking it with your bashing of 5W-20, saying how all other countries are allowed to use heavier oil.
You seem to have forgotten the fact that the engines in the RX-8's are still failing in all these other countries, even with the heavier oil and synthetic oil being used in them from day 1.
So, even if you had bought your car, and immediately changed the oil over to 5W-30, 0W-30, or 0W-40, and still changed the oil every 4k km's, your engine might still have had low compression anyway, at the exact same mileage.
The main thing for you to take out of this whole experience is that Mazda is willing to give you a free replacement motor without argument, just because you live in Canada. There are plenty of people in Europe, Japan, and Australia who would love to be able to get a free replacement motor from Mazda, but can't.
The additional main thing to remember is the design of the motor.
Earlier Rotory engines had 3 oil injectors in the rotory housing.
The later Renesis motor has 3 oil injectors in the rotory housing.
Chances are a lot more of that water thin 5W-20 oil is making it down to the side seals in order to keep them clean than in your 2 injector engine.
So far there haven't been many public experiences on the forum about '09 and later motors dying an early death. I'm hoping my '11 Sport will live a good long life without having to replace the engine, but if it does, hopefully Mazda will be footing the bill, just like they did in your case.
So ultimately, even though you did everything by Mazda's book, and your engine still died an early death, you are still being taken care of, and the main reason why that is happening is because of how well you took care of the motor with your top level of care.
Just keep up with that, and that's really all you can ask for.
Its that, or you trade in for an RX-8 with the third oil injector, and hope for the best.
BC.
You seem to have forgotten the fact that the engines in the RX-8's are still failing in all these other countries, even with the heavier oil and synthetic oil being used in them from day 1.
So, even if you had bought your car, and immediately changed the oil over to 5W-30, 0W-30, or 0W-40, and still changed the oil every 4k km's, your engine might still have had low compression anyway, at the exact same mileage.
The main thing for you to take out of this whole experience is that Mazda is willing to give you a free replacement motor without argument, just because you live in Canada. There are plenty of people in Europe, Japan, and Australia who would love to be able to get a free replacement motor from Mazda, but can't.
The additional main thing to remember is the design of the motor.
Earlier Rotory engines had 3 oil injectors in the rotory housing.
The later Renesis motor has 3 oil injectors in the rotory housing.
Chances are a lot more of that water thin 5W-20 oil is making it down to the side seals in order to keep them clean than in your 2 injector engine.
So far there haven't been many public experiences on the forum about '09 and later motors dying an early death. I'm hoping my '11 Sport will live a good long life without having to replace the engine, but if it does, hopefully Mazda will be footing the bill, just like they did in your case.
So ultimately, even though you did everything by Mazda's book, and your engine still died an early death, you are still being taken care of, and the main reason why that is happening is because of how well you took care of the motor with your top level of care.
Just keep up with that, and that's really all you can ask for.
Its that, or you trade in for an RX-8 with the third oil injector, and hope for the best.
BC.
02-19-2012, 03:41 PM
#55
Engines here fail for side seal wear, side seal spring failure, lack of reflashes concerning the OMP (There are many '04\05 cars still running on the original flash despite goingthrough 2\3 engines...) etc. The service intervals are short of ridicule. 20.000km\12000miles for an oil change.
Many died because of the short trips (15\20kms a day in stop and go traffic round trip) and clogged catalytic converters as well. Forget the idea of fresh coils, people change spark plugs every 60\70k kms here.
thin oil, lower oil pressure and lack of premix (given the oil nozzles location) are the only things one can take care of without rebuilding the engine. Add a solid ignition set up and a good flash to that list
At least we're not medieval paesants preaching by mineral oils, seal clogging is less common thanks to that and engines look cleaner than the ones that run on mineral or blended stuff.
Many died because of the short trips (15\20kms a day in stop and go traffic round trip) and clogged catalytic converters as well. Forget the idea of fresh coils, people change spark plugs every 60\70k kms here.
thin oil, lower oil pressure and lack of premix (given the oil nozzles location) are the only things one can take care of without rebuilding the engine. Add a solid ignition set up and a good flash to that list
At least we're not medieval paesants preaching by mineral oils, seal clogging is less common thanks to that and engines look cleaner than the ones that run on mineral or blended stuff.
02-19-2012, 03:52 PM
#56
Metatron
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Modern 5w-20 oil is great stuff.
It's impossible to make a 5w-20 that will meet the latest specs, without using a goodly percentage of fine synthetic basestock and a synthetic additive pack.
To restate the points already exhaustively played out in previous synthetic oil discussions,
and quite apart from the (obvious) fuel savings, a good 'thin' synthetic oil will always yield -
better cooling of pistons + cylinders
better heat removal from bearings
faster heat transfer in oil cooler
quicker lube to the valvetrain
quicker filter bypass closure
faster target oil pressure
faster circulation of oil
higher total flow of oil
lower pour point temp
higher smoke point
lower starter wear
quicker starting
lower amp draw
lower deposits
less oxidation
Heavy oils tend to 'fry' onto parts when used to cool hotspots, rotary engine designs use an oil jet to cool the inside of the rotors, a spray of a more viscous oil would likely never even reach the target.....the trick is to make the oil stay 'in grade' for the entire oil change interval, not easy at all, and physically impossible without the new generation of synthetics and add packs.
It's impossible to make a 5w-20 that will meet the latest specs, without using a goodly percentage of fine synthetic basestock and a synthetic additive pack.
To restate the points already exhaustively played out in previous synthetic oil discussions,
and quite apart from the (obvious) fuel savings, a good 'thin' synthetic oil will always yield -
better cooling of pistons + cylinders
better heat removal from bearings
faster heat transfer in oil cooler
quicker lube to the valvetrain
quicker filter bypass closure
faster target oil pressure
faster circulation of oil
higher total flow of oil
lower pour point temp
higher smoke point
lower starter wear
quicker starting
lower amp draw
lower deposits
less oxidation
Heavy oils tend to 'fry' onto parts when used to cool hotspots, rotary engine designs use an oil jet to cool the inside of the rotors, a spray of a more viscous oil would likely never even reach the target.....the trick is to make the oil stay 'in grade' for the entire oil change interval, not easy at all, and physically impossible without the new generation of synthetics and add packs.
02-19-2012, 06:06 PM
#57
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Modern 5w-20 oil is great stuff.
It's impossible to make a 5w-20 that will meet the latest specs, without using a goodly percentage of fine synthetic basestock and a synthetic additive pack.
To restate the points already exhaustively played out in previous synthetic oil discussions,
and quite apart from the (obvious) fuel savings, a good 'thin' synthetic oil will always yield -
better cooling of pistons + cylinders
better heat removal from bearings
faster heat transfer in oil cooler
quicker lube to the valvetrain
quicker filter bypass closure
faster target oil pressure
faster circulation of oil
higher total flow of oil
lower pour point temp
higher smoke point
lower starter wear
quicker starting
lower amp draw
lower deposits
less oxidation
Heavy oils tend to 'fry' onto parts when used to cool hotspots, rotary engine designs use an oil jet to cool the inside of the rotors, a spray of a more viscous oil would likely never even reach the target.....the trick is to make the oil stay 'in grade' for the entire oil change interval, not easy at all, and physically impossible without the new generation of synthetics and add packs.
It's impossible to make a 5w-20 that will meet the latest specs, without using a goodly percentage of fine synthetic basestock and a synthetic additive pack.
To restate the points already exhaustively played out in previous synthetic oil discussions,
and quite apart from the (obvious) fuel savings, a good 'thin' synthetic oil will always yield -
better cooling of pistons + cylinders
better heat removal from bearings
faster heat transfer in oil cooler
quicker lube to the valvetrain
quicker filter bypass closure
faster target oil pressure
faster circulation of oil
higher total flow of oil
lower pour point temp
higher smoke point
lower starter wear
quicker starting
lower amp draw
lower deposits
less oxidation
Heavy oils tend to 'fry' onto parts when used to cool hotspots, rotary engine designs use an oil jet to cool the inside of the rotors, a spray of a more viscous oil would likely never even reach the target.....the trick is to make the oil stay 'in grade' for the entire oil change interval, not easy at all, and physically impossible without the new generation of synthetics and add packs.
PS. "cooling of pistons + cylinders", "quicker lube to the valvetrain" ???
02-19-2012, 06:41 PM
#58
Lots of decisions to make... synthetic or dino.... premix or no premix.... here are my latest thoughts...
Since I won't get the engine back for a tear down to see what happen, anything I suspected in the past will never be verified. Having said that though, here are some facts...
5W30, the thicker oil than 5W20 will provide better protection at higher temperatures, and high temperatures are often with my driving style since I like to drive in the upper RPM more often than the average driver will, more protection is good.
Not entirely settled on the synthetic vs. dino debate.... Mazda has their own 0W30 Full sythetic Group IV PAO based oil in Japan.... Racing Beat recommends Royal Purple, and Royal Purple themselves fully stand behind their product to be used in a rotary engine, they even created a FAQ page just for it. However, matter of fact is after the engine replacement I still have 60,000 manufacture warranty to which I don't want that to be voided if the remanufactured engine does blow up before that time. Just don't want trouble with the claim process.
This leaves me with running dino oil 5W30... At the price point of half the synthetics, I can afford to continue doing 4000km oil changes. I've read that the frequency of oil changes is beneficial, and as long as they are frequent like 4000km, then the need for synthetic oil really is negated. I've had no problem with Castrol GTX, so I could continue with GTX but instead switch to 5W30 what the rest of the world uses.
Onto premix.... it's undeniably a fact that Mazda had added a 3rd injector in the middle in the S2 engine to compensate for the short-comings of the S1 engine. They wouldn't just do it for the heck of it... That indeed is a really good reason that the OMP is insufficient at the task of combustion chamber lubrication at higher RPMs in the S1. And it's not so the OMP isn't dumping enough oil... it's the LOCATION where the oil is coming into that the issue is about. Premix can add additional lubrication in all conditions to help out a bit.
I did a lot of research into the possibility of clogging fuel injectors/fuel pump because they were not designed to feed oil in the first place and I don't disgree with that theory. However, at the same token, a quality premix designed for rotary engines such as Idemitsu can't possibly go wrong... we're not putting in Motomaster Canadian Tire 2-stroke oil.... Idemitsu as an example is designed for that sole purpose, those people who made it must have taken account the ability for that to blend with the gasoline and not cake up injectors/fuel sock. Nonetheless, I will email Idemitsu and see what they have to say about clogging fuel injectors and fuel pumps/lines.
As it stands now, it looks like the future maintenance could potentiall be Castrol GTX 5W30 + Idemitsu Premix (with the Seafoam in gas tank once a year thing).
What do y'all think?
Since I won't get the engine back for a tear down to see what happen, anything I suspected in the past will never be verified. Having said that though, here are some facts...
5W30, the thicker oil than 5W20 will provide better protection at higher temperatures, and high temperatures are often with my driving style since I like to drive in the upper RPM more often than the average driver will, more protection is good.
Not entirely settled on the synthetic vs. dino debate.... Mazda has their own 0W30 Full sythetic Group IV PAO based oil in Japan.... Racing Beat recommends Royal Purple, and Royal Purple themselves fully stand behind their product to be used in a rotary engine, they even created a FAQ page just for it. However, matter of fact is after the engine replacement I still have 60,000 manufacture warranty to which I don't want that to be voided if the remanufactured engine does blow up before that time. Just don't want trouble with the claim process.
This leaves me with running dino oil 5W30... At the price point of half the synthetics, I can afford to continue doing 4000km oil changes. I've read that the frequency of oil changes is beneficial, and as long as they are frequent like 4000km, then the need for synthetic oil really is negated. I've had no problem with Castrol GTX, so I could continue with GTX but instead switch to 5W30 what the rest of the world uses.
Onto premix.... it's undeniably a fact that Mazda had added a 3rd injector in the middle in the S2 engine to compensate for the short-comings of the S1 engine. They wouldn't just do it for the heck of it... That indeed is a really good reason that the OMP is insufficient at the task of combustion chamber lubrication at higher RPMs in the S1. And it's not so the OMP isn't dumping enough oil... it's the LOCATION where the oil is coming into that the issue is about. Premix can add additional lubrication in all conditions to help out a bit.
I did a lot of research into the possibility of clogging fuel injectors/fuel pump because they were not designed to feed oil in the first place and I don't disgree with that theory. However, at the same token, a quality premix designed for rotary engines such as Idemitsu can't possibly go wrong... we're not putting in Motomaster Canadian Tire 2-stroke oil.... Idemitsu as an example is designed for that sole purpose, those people who made it must have taken account the ability for that to blend with the gasoline and not cake up injectors/fuel sock. Nonetheless, I will email Idemitsu and see what they have to say about clogging fuel injectors and fuel pumps/lines.
As it stands now, it looks like the future maintenance could potentiall be Castrol GTX 5W30 + Idemitsu Premix (with the Seafoam in gas tank once a year thing).
What do y'all think?
02-19-2012, 06:53 PM
#59
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Things I'd also consider...
- the oil base in a multi-viscosity oil is the lower viscosity number, so 5W-20 is really 5W oil stock, with additives to get it to respond like a higher viscosity oil, 20W at 100C.
- the additives are what get depleted with use over time.
- there is much less additive in a synthetic oil than dino because its naturally viscosity- stable over wider temperature ranges.
- there is more 'oil' in a multi-viscosity synthetic oil than dino because it contains less additives
- additive depleted oil becomes its base weight, i.e., a 5W-20 become 5W at all temperatures
================
I'd rather have a stable synthetic 10W-30 or 20W-50 that was a least 10W or 20W at a minimum, higher at 100C, than a 5W-20 or 5W-30 dino oil that had depleted its additives and was really now a near 5W-5 oil at all engine temps, even 100C. Unless of course if you really do change at 4k-km or if do any track racing where the extra synthetic temp stability and film strength might be important. Your premix idea is good, just don't get to generous because of CAT overheating.
- the oil base in a multi-viscosity oil is the lower viscosity number, so 5W-20 is really 5W oil stock, with additives to get it to respond like a higher viscosity oil, 20W at 100C.
- the additives are what get depleted with use over time.
- there is much less additive in a synthetic oil than dino because its naturally viscosity- stable over wider temperature ranges.
- there is more 'oil' in a multi-viscosity synthetic oil than dino because it contains less additives
- additive depleted oil becomes its base weight, i.e., a 5W-20 become 5W at all temperatures
================
I'd rather have a stable synthetic 10W-30 or 20W-50 that was a least 10W or 20W at a minimum, higher at 100C, than a 5W-20 or 5W-30 dino oil that had depleted its additives and was really now a near 5W-5 oil at all engine temps, even 100C. Unless of course if you really do change at 4k-km or if do any track racing where the extra synthetic temp stability and film strength might be important. Your premix idea is good, just don't get to generous because of CAT overheating.
02-19-2012, 07:14 PM
#60
how does premix affect CAT temp and CAT life?
Yes, and I do really do 4000 KM oil changes.
Gotta run 5W because I daily drive the car, and the winter, it sometimes gets down to -20 to -25C here in Toronto... So I can't run 10W30.
Yes, and I do really do 4000 KM oil changes.
Gotta run 5W because I daily drive the car, and the winter, it sometimes gets down to -20 to -25C here in Toronto... So I can't run 10W30.
Last edited by Footman; 02-19-2012 at 07:17 PM.
02-19-2012, 08:08 PM
#62
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Think of the extreme case using too much oil in the mix, you'd get white smoke exhaust and the cat would try to accomodate, and doing that, overheat doing what it does, breaking down leftover hydrocarbons, etc.
Same overheating happens when engien flooding occurs and then the cat tries to burn the excess gas. If you're lucky you have a cat left after flooding if you didn't put to much gas through it.
Use to much premix and the hydrocarbon mix doesn't burn well (completely) and the cat suffers from overwork.
Same overheating happens when engien flooding occurs and then the cat tries to burn the excess gas. If you're lucky you have a cat left after flooding if you didn't put to much gas through it.
Use to much premix and the hydrocarbon mix doesn't burn well (completely) and the cat suffers from overwork.
02-20-2012, 01:37 AM
#65
There are many that don't though and a lot that are designed to be cat friendly.
As for the 5w20... i'm sure it lubricates just fine under highway conditions. What I wouldn't want to do with it is repeat low speed high load conditions (traffic....) or extensive high rpms sessions (track).
It's full of nice 0w synth oils, if you really live in a cold climate they may be even better.
02-20-2012, 08:11 AM
#66
Some premixes destroy the catalytic converter. It takes a while but they generally succeed
There are many that don't though and a lot that are designed to be cat friendly.
As for the 5w20... i'm sure it lubricates just fine under highway conditions. What I wouldn't want to do with it is repeat low speed high load conditions (traffic....) or extensive high rpms sessions (track).
It's full of nice 0w synth oils, if you really live in a cold climate they may be even better.
There are many that don't though and a lot that are designed to be cat friendly.
As for the 5w20... i'm sure it lubricates just fine under highway conditions. What I wouldn't want to do with it is repeat low speed high load conditions (traffic....) or extensive high rpms sessions (track).
It's full of nice 0w synth oils, if you really live in a cold climate they may be even better.
That is EXACTLY the kind of traffic conditions one experiences daily in the Canada's largest city!!!!
I don't highway commute to work, and I don't live in rural areas... we have traffic here as bad as Los Angeles daily!
02-20-2012, 10:03 AM
#68
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Idemitsu sells their products as "racing lubricants". Racing is not daily driving...no matter how aggressively you believe you drive. What's their position on using these products for daily driving?
Call me crazy but I picked up a bottle of Dura Lube upper chamber lubricant when it was on sale at CT a couple weeks ago. I debated whether to actually use it and then figured what the heck...how bad can one application be? I'm totally willing to believe it was my imagination but I'll be damned if it didn't seem to make the engine run smoother! No firm plans to continue using it....but maybe!
Call me crazy but I picked up a bottle of Dura Lube upper chamber lubricant when it was on sale at CT a couple weeks ago. I debated whether to actually use it and then figured what the heck...how bad can one application be? I'm totally willing to believe it was my imagination but I'll be damned if it didn't seem to make the engine run smoother! No firm plans to continue using it....but maybe!
02-20-2012, 10:18 AM
#69
Momentum Keeps Me Going
You're crazy.
http://yellowairplane.com/MISC/LubeLetters.html
http://www.carbibles.com/additives.html
http://yellowairplane.com/MISC/LubeLetters.html
Products such as Prolong, Duralube, Motor UP, Friction Wedge, Energy Release and a couple of others use high concentrations of Chlorinated polymers to enhance the oil, yet the chemistry turns to hydrochloric acid in the combustion chamber... If this is information your readers may enjoy knowing I could help you out...
DuraLube challenged by Car&Driver.
The manufacturers of the DuraLube engine additive were dealt a smack in the face by a Car & Driver Magazine report into their product. C&D tried the same tests as Consumer Reports did on ProLong, and had similar results, but in a much quicker time. The C&D engines treated with DuraLube lasted a staggering 11 seconds without oil. You do the math. The Federal Trade Commission banned DuraLube from making claims on any of the following: reduced engine wear (by any percentage, dollar or other figure), prolonged engine life, reduced emissions, reduced risk of serious engine damage when oil pressure is lost, improved gas mileage.
FTC Reports pertaining to Duralube http://ftcsearch.ftc.gov/search?q=du...sp=a&sort=date.
Read more: http://www.carbibles.com/additives.html#ixzz1mwJ2JyjJ
The manufacturers of the DuraLube engine additive were dealt a smack in the face by a Car & Driver Magazine report into their product. C&D tried the same tests as Consumer Reports did on ProLong, and had similar results, but in a much quicker time. The C&D engines treated with DuraLube lasted a staggering 11 seconds without oil. You do the math. The Federal Trade Commission banned DuraLube from making claims on any of the following: reduced engine wear (by any percentage, dollar or other figure), prolonged engine life, reduced emissions, reduced risk of serious engine damage when oil pressure is lost, improved gas mileage.
FTC Reports pertaining to Duralube http://ftcsearch.ftc.gov/search?q=du...sp=a&sort=date.
Read more: http://www.carbibles.com/additives.html#ixzz1mwJ2JyjJ
02-20-2012, 12:01 PM
#70
rotary ninja
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Sorry to hear that Andrew... **** happens. But once again.. look on the bright side.. you're getting a new engine for free.
Hell.. if it was me I'd see if I could get Joe or Mazmark to take a look at it before getting it installed.. make sure it's but to snuff rather some some craptastic referb that will die in a week.
Hell.. if it was me I'd see if I could get Joe or Mazmark to take a look at it before getting it installed.. make sure it's but to snuff rather some some craptastic referb that will die in a week.
02-20-2012, 12:17 PM
#71
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The Dura Lube product I used is a fuel additive, not an oil additive (along the lines of Lucas and Marvel Mystery Oil)
Not that I'm disagreeing with the "crazy" assertion though
Not that I'm disagreeing with the "crazy" assertion though
Last edited by JohnnyG; 02-20-2012 at 12:24 PM.
02-20-2012, 01:41 PM
#72
Momentum Keeps Me Going
True story.... I started using Lucas Upper Cylinder Lubricant once upon a time... soon after my engine croaked... not saying it had anything to do with it ... but I've still got 80% of the bottle unused.... Perhaps my lawn mower can use some of what it does which would solve that problem lol
02-21-2012, 05:56 PM
#73
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Andrew, my condolences.
You are one of, if the THE most **** rx8 guy in toronto. to see the engine goes like this is really saddening.
However, you are getting a replacement engine at least, and hopefully this will be better.
Maybe you can do an engine swap after the 2nd is gone...aka 16x :P
You are one of, if the THE most **** rx8 guy in toronto. to see the engine goes like this is really saddening.
However, you are getting a replacement engine at least, and hopefully this will be better.
Maybe you can do an engine swap after the 2nd is gone...aka 16x :P
02-21-2012, 07:42 PM
#74
Hate Scrape 8
These were my results that Mazda of Brampton emailed me from 2 summers ago when I was having misfiring issues, and they said I had the wrong ECU in my car. I know it says good, but they could probably manipulate it for me so I dont know what they are taking about. Are these good numbers? Im not really sure as to what these numbers mean. And if your free sometime in the summer id like to take you on the a test drive in my car for that WOT noise which I dont know what that is. My warrenty is up soon
02-21-2012, 08:10 PM
#75
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Not sure if this helps you, but my new engine was 135.1 PSI in all faces except one on the front rotor was @143.6 PSI. Basically it's telling you how well sealed your rotors are. Low compression means gas is getting by the seals. "Normal" is between 119 PSI and 136.5 PSI or so I was told by a tester at the reman. plant.
Last edited by Spin9k; 02-21-2012 at 08:12 PM.