My RX-8 is sitting dead in the driveway
10-13-2003, 11:31 AM
#1
with a Red 8
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My RX-8 is sitting dead in the driveway
Went on a business trip last week, and the car sat in the cold for 5 days. During this time, my girlfriend started it to move it...and of course only let it run for 30 seconds or so while doing so. I came back Friday, tried to start it.... it rumbled, sputtered, idled extremely rough....then died. Since then, I've not been able to even get the slightest bit of engine compression.
So it's now Sunday, I'm sitting here starting at my $50K investment scratching my head. It's Thanksgiving, so Mazda Assist told me not to bother towing it until tomorrow morning when the dealership is open.
I'm guessing a few of you have, and will have this happen, as apparently it is the earmark of the rotary engine. Don't get me wrong, I love the car....but this is something that would give me thoughts of handing this car back to Mazda (rather than silly horsepower items). If I didn't have alternate transport, or needed to catch a flight when this happened, I'd be in some serious hot water.
A word to all of you Canadians (and northern Americans) that are going to be cold starting your RX-8 in the coming weeks...be prepared for this, and follow the 5 minute start rule.
I've tried starting it for 3 days now, and no dice. Tried yanking the fuel pump fuse, waited a day, still no dice. If anyone else has suggestions outside of yanking out the spark plugs to dry them (I'm not touching this engine, it's too tempermental as it is), I'd like to hear it.
Thx.
So it's now Sunday, I'm sitting here starting at my $50K investment scratching my head. It's Thanksgiving, so Mazda Assist told me not to bother towing it until tomorrow morning when the dealership is open.
I'm guessing a few of you have, and will have this happen, as apparently it is the earmark of the rotary engine. Don't get me wrong, I love the car....but this is something that would give me thoughts of handing this car back to Mazda (rather than silly horsepower items). If I didn't have alternate transport, or needed to catch a flight when this happened, I'd be in some serious hot water.
A word to all of you Canadians (and northern Americans) that are going to be cold starting your RX-8 in the coming weeks...be prepared for this, and follow the 5 minute start rule.
I've tried starting it for 3 days now, and no dice. Tried yanking the fuel pump fuse, waited a day, still no dice. If anyone else has suggestions outside of yanking out the spark plugs to dry them (I'm not touching this engine, it's too tempermental as it is), I'd like to hear it.
Thx.
10-13-2003, 03:52 PM
#2
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UPDATE: Got it started
Here's how I did it, for when one of you gets in this situation:
First, I'll stress that I'm no mechanic, and have no idea if what I did here hurt my engine or starter motor, etc....but I don't really care, as it's all under warranty right?
- With the key out of the ignition, remove the 20A fuse for "Fuel Pump"....this is NOT the fuse for the Fuel Injection, it is a little yellow 20A fuse labelled "Fuel Pump"
- Crank the engine for 10-15 seconds. You'll see all sorts of yellow and black smoke belching out of the back of the car - don't be alarmed.
- Continue 10-15 seconds cranks with fuse removed until you don't see any smoke billowing out of the rear exhaust anymore (ie. all of the combustion chamber crud is now out)
- Shut the car OFF, remove the key from the ignition. Put the "Fuel Pump" fuse back in its place.
- Crank the engine again, in 5 second bursts. The engine will remarkably start to "catch" (as opposed to the usual non-compression wining it produced before). Keep cranking it in 5 second bursts until it a) starts or b) stops "catching" and returns to the flooded engine sounding cranking.
- Repeat the above until it is started
I did the above 3 times, and my car started. When it starts, it appears as though the day has become night, and the whole car, and your neighbor's house become engulfed in black smoke for a minute or two as the RX-8 burns off all of that oil rich fuel mix in the combustion chamber. It will eventually clear. Let the engine run for at least 5-10 minutes, and then take her out for a drive to warm 'er back up.
Again, I'll stress that I'm not a mechanic, but if you're in an emergency and need to get the engine started, and don't want to waste over a day getting your dealer to deal with this crap...the above should work for you.
Oh, and don't touch the gas pedal during ANY of this...ie. don't floor it when turning the engine over, etc., just let the above procedure do its work.
Hope this helps someone.
Here's how I did it, for when one of you gets in this situation:
First, I'll stress that I'm no mechanic, and have no idea if what I did here hurt my engine or starter motor, etc....but I don't really care, as it's all under warranty right?
- With the key out of the ignition, remove the 20A fuse for "Fuel Pump"....this is NOT the fuse for the Fuel Injection, it is a little yellow 20A fuse labelled "Fuel Pump"
- Crank the engine for 10-15 seconds. You'll see all sorts of yellow and black smoke belching out of the back of the car - don't be alarmed.
- Continue 10-15 seconds cranks with fuse removed until you don't see any smoke billowing out of the rear exhaust anymore (ie. all of the combustion chamber crud is now out)
- Shut the car OFF, remove the key from the ignition. Put the "Fuel Pump" fuse back in its place.
- Crank the engine again, in 5 second bursts. The engine will remarkably start to "catch" (as opposed to the usual non-compression wining it produced before). Keep cranking it in 5 second bursts until it a) starts or b) stops "catching" and returns to the flooded engine sounding cranking.
- Repeat the above until it is started
I did the above 3 times, and my car started. When it starts, it appears as though the day has become night, and the whole car, and your neighbor's house become engulfed in black smoke for a minute or two as the RX-8 burns off all of that oil rich fuel mix in the combustion chamber. It will eventually clear. Let the engine run for at least 5-10 minutes, and then take her out for a drive
to warm 'er back up.Again, I'll stress that I'm not a mechanic, but if you're in an emergency and need to get the engine started, and don't want to waste over a day getting your dealer to deal with this crap...the above should work for you.
Oh, and don't touch the gas pedal during ANY of this...ie. don't floor it when turning the engine over, etc., just let the above procedure do its work.
Hope this helps someone.
Last edited by Deep Blue; 10-13-2003 at 03:57 PM.
10-13-2003, 04:16 PM
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I'm not a mechanic either, but nontheless that was a very entertaining post. I got quite a lot a visual imagery from your writing, what a crack up. Congrats on getting the car started. Now if somebody that actually knows anything about rotary mechanics would step-in and let us know if this was a good idea or not! 
10-13-2003, 04:27 PM
#5
Rotary Abuser
I understand why rotaries flood. I also know that its a special engine that may sometimes need special care.
But come on........my 30 Grand shouldn't buy me a car that leaves me stranded...or covers my street and house in black smoke when brand new. Guaranteed the way that is described in this thread is all they do when the dealer gets a flooded RX8.....crank the hell out of it with the fuel pump relay out.
Dont get me wrong...I love this car. I just think they should have squashed this problem by now. I follow the cold start procedure, But how about if someone not acustomed to rotaries moves my car out of the driveway and back in. Now I'm stranded the next day?......doesnt seem right.
But come on........my 30 Grand shouldn't buy me a car that leaves me stranded...or covers my street and house in black smoke when brand new. Guaranteed the way that is described in this thread is all they do when the dealer gets a flooded RX8.....crank the hell out of it with the fuel pump relay out.
Dont get me wrong...I love this car. I just think they should have squashed this problem by now. I follow the cold start procedure, But how about if someone not acustomed to rotaries moves my car out of the driveway and back in. Now I'm stranded the next day?......doesnt seem right.
10-13-2003, 04:30 PM
#6
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Originally posted by Maniac
Actually, "flooring it" while cranking will yeild the same result.
To clear a flooded engine, Mazda included a de-choke program into the cranking scheme.
Just press the gas pedal to the floor and the ECU will pull ALL fuel delivery during cranking.
Actually, "flooring it" while cranking will yeild the same result.
To clear a flooded engine, Mazda included a de-choke program into the cranking scheme.
Just press the gas pedal to the floor and the ECU will pull ALL fuel delivery during cranking.
Again, I'm sure you know what you're talking about, but my real world experience yielded a different result.
10-13-2003, 08:22 PM
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Originally posted by Deep Blue
Not disputing what you're saying, but I tried that for 2 days...and it didn't help a lick. Flooring it produces a heavier "thumping" noise when cranking, but the engine never "caught" once.
Again, I'm sure you know what you're talking about, but my real world experience yielded a different result.
Not disputing what you're saying, but I tried that for 2 days...and it didn't help a lick. Flooring it produces a heavier "thumping" noise when cranking, but the engine never "caught" once.
Again, I'm sure you know what you're talking about, but my real world experience yielded a different result.
Edit: FYI, this IS the procedure for de-flooding. There is no harm in it whatsoever, as long as you take care with your starter. A crank should be no more than 5-6 seconds, and let it rest for 10 secs. in between cranks. After 3 tries, let it rest a bit longer. Basically, don't overheat your starter.
Also, regarding the throttle input, there is 1 time where you must be ready to give it gas: after it starts. It will idle erratically for 5-10 seconds, and may sputter out. Be ready to keep it alive.
Last edited by B-Nez; 10-13-2003 at 08:28 PM.
10-13-2003, 08:29 PM
#8
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Originally posted by B-Nez
The engine will NOT catch while you are flooring the pedal. The thumping indicates good compression, as the fuel (or other liquid, depending on the situation) has been pumped out of the motor. Next you have to crank it normally (with no throttle input). THEN it will start. Or not, and you repeat the procedure. After 1-3 times, yo should be golden.
The engine will NOT catch while you are flooring the pedal. The thumping indicates good compression, as the fuel (or other liquid, depending on the situation) has been pumped out of the motor. Next you have to crank it normally (with no throttle input). THEN it will start. Or not, and you repeat the procedure. After 1-3 times, yo should be golden.
Again, this was my personal experience with it, perhaps I had a radically bad case that needed the fuse pulled. Either way, I hope this post helps people who might get stuck as the weather gets cooler.
10-13-2003, 10:01 PM
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I'm not sure about accessibility on the 8, but on my 7, if you have someone to help you by cranking the engine while you pinch off the fuel supply hose with needle nose pliers you should be able to get it started. When the engine sounds like its about to catch release the hose and if possible on the 8 work the throttle by hand. I had to use this technique before I put in my fuel cut switch. usually works fairly quickly if the car hasn't been sitting for long
Peace
Peace
10-13-2003, 10:32 PM
#10
Originally posted by Deep Blue
....tried cranking it, flooring it while cranking it, cranking it after flooring it, etc. and no help.
....tried cranking it, flooring it while cranking it, cranking it after flooring it, etc. and no help.
For the de-choke procedure to work as Mazda designed it, you need to ONLY crank with the gas on the floor until the motor is clear.
In cold weather, this can take quite a while.
Whenever implementing any sort of fix for any problem of this sort, consistency is your only friend.
10-23-2003, 11:51 PM
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This talk about the rotary flooding all the time makes me sick
I have owned rotary powered cars for over 20 years, flooding
is no more a problem with the rotary than a few other cars that
i have had/ have.
the ford SHO that i had would do the same thing, start it cold
move it a bit and shut it off before it warms up and it will be
flooded, 80 % of the time.
I have a jetta TDI and it is the same way, or possibly more of
a problem than the SHO was.
If you know what you are supposed to do when this kind of thing happens
then its not a problem, with the rotaries its simple the rx8 will stop fuel
flow when the foot feed is to the floor, putting your foot to the floor
at the first sign that it is flooded makes it that much easier to
get it started. cranking off and on for 5 secs at a time will only
flood it worse unless you have your foot to the floor and keep it
there. starting to crank and putting your foot to the floor will make things
worse put your foot to the floor before even turning the key.
I find that with any rotary that i have, or have had, from the
rx2, to the 3rd gen rx7, to the 3 rotor, if i start to crank i will keep cranking
until it starts, if it doesn't start in the first 5 to 6 seconds my foot automatically
goes to the floor with out stopping cranking, obviously if its really flooded
you don't want to keep cranking for to long, but getting into a habit if
starting the rotary like this will avoid the problem of a badly flooded engine.
my 2 cents
matt
I have owned rotary powered cars for over 20 years, flooding
is no more a problem with the rotary than a few other cars that
i have had/ have.
the ford SHO that i had would do the same thing, start it cold
move it a bit and shut it off before it warms up and it will be
flooded, 80 % of the time.
I have a jetta TDI and it is the same way, or possibly more of
a problem than the SHO was.
If you know what you are supposed to do when this kind of thing happens
then its not a problem, with the rotaries its simple the rx8 will stop fuel
flow when the foot feed is to the floor, putting your foot to the floor
at the first sign that it is flooded makes it that much easier to
get it started. cranking off and on for 5 secs at a time will only
flood it worse unless you have your foot to the floor and keep it
there. starting to crank and putting your foot to the floor will make things
worse put your foot to the floor before even turning the key.
I find that with any rotary that i have, or have had, from the
rx2, to the 3rd gen rx7, to the 3 rotor, if i start to crank i will keep cranking
until it starts, if it doesn't start in the first 5 to 6 seconds my foot automatically
goes to the floor with out stopping cranking, obviously if its really flooded
you don't want to keep cranking for to long, but getting into a habit if
starting the rotary like this will avoid the problem of a badly flooded engine.
my 2 cents
matt
10-31-2003, 12:05 AM
#16
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IF you want to clear flooding like this, I suggest you might want to consider pulling the L (leading) plu out of each rotor.
Why?
Gasoline is a liquid.
Liquids don't compress.
Apex seal and side seals can be broken by cranking with liquid fuel in the chambers.
On top of that, if you DO get it started, as you mentioned, it will take quite a while to stop belching smoke ( as you mentioned).
That is because your spark plugs are fouled.
Unfortunately:
To get at the plugs you have to go UNDER the car.
I did not say this was an EASY fix.
But I believe it is the RIGHT fix, unless you want to risk damaging the engine..
Why?
Gasoline is a liquid.
Liquids don't compress.
Apex seal and side seals can be broken by cranking with liquid fuel in the chambers.
On top of that, if you DO get it started, as you mentioned, it will take quite a while to stop belching smoke ( as you mentioned).
That is because your spark plugs are fouled.
Unfortunately:
To get at the plugs you have to go UNDER the car.
I did not say this was an EASY fix.
But I believe it is the RIGHT fix, unless you want to risk damaging the engine..
11-23-2003, 11:49 PM
#17
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I would just turn the car upside down and shake it. It's a lot easier than pulling everything apart, and the gas will probably come out through various ports and holes. You just have to call a couple friends over to help cause its kinda heavy.
11-24-2003, 10:40 AM
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Don't feel too bad. The unflooding procedure is a bit hit or miss. That's why RX-7 owners have for years used ATF injected into the engine (remove plug - inject a small amount - replace plug). It works much better.
It's also why those who have flooded it once, do everything in their power to avoid flooding it again. Make sure you warm it up. Use the new Mazda recomendation too - before shutting it off rev. it to 3-4k and turn off the ignition and let it coast down (injectors will be off so engine should expel any fuel inside).
I've never had the pleasure of flooding my 3rd gen. RX-7 and don't want to. I flooded my 2nd gen TII several times, but it had a fuel pump switch, and that makes it easy to start.
It's also why those who have flooded it once, do everything in their power to avoid flooding it again. Make sure you warm it up. Use the new Mazda recomendation too - before shutting it off rev. it to 3-4k and turn off the ignition and let it coast down (injectors will be off so engine should expel any fuel inside).
I've never had the pleasure of flooding my 3rd gen. RX-7 and don't want to. I flooded my 2nd gen TII several times, but it had a fuel pump switch, and that makes it easy to start.
12-24-2003, 03:00 PM
#19
Registered User
The method in the manual works
Okay, it's Christmas eve and I went to take the car out for a final Christmas eve spin before vacation time - and it was flooded. I can't blame it on my kids, my wife, or a wayward in-law. I did it. I moved the car out of the garage yesterday, turned her off, and moved it back in again - and then paid the price.
Going to start it this afternoon, she just died. So, I checked the manual and tried the 'floored for 10 seconds / no accelerator for 10 seconds' to no avail.
After coming in and reading this thread, I went back and kept trying with my foot floored. It took 10 minutes or so, but, she angrily came back to life. :p
Once she made her point, we went for a 45 minute drive so I would be sure the battery was recharged. Morale of the story - every now and then the design engineers get it right. More to the point - whenever I have a problem, it's RX8Club surfing I go...
Merry Christmas All!
Going to start it this afternoon, she just died. So, I checked the manual and tried the 'floored for 10 seconds / no accelerator for 10 seconds' to no avail.
After coming in and reading this thread, I went back and kept trying with my foot floored. It took 10 minutes or so, but, she angrily came back to life. :p
Once she made her point, we went for a 45 minute drive so I would be sure the battery was recharged. Morale of the story - every now and then the design engineers get it right. More to the point - whenever I have a problem, it's RX8Club surfing I go...
Merry Christmas All!
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luvmyRX8Toni (12-08-2021)
12-29-2003, 04:22 PM
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>I went back and kept trying with my foot floored. It took 10 >minutes or so
You have your right foot floored the whole time while cranking it, even in between the cranking? I suppose you've done the cranking in a 5-6 sec burst, otherwise you're going to burn the starter!
So the keys to avoid the flood issue are
1. Always have the car fully warm up, if possible
2. If you plan to drive it on a very short trip, like in and out of your garage, make sure to rev it to 4k and hold it there for about 10 sec, and then turn off the engine right away.
You have your right foot floored the whole time while cranking it, even in between the cranking? I suppose you've done the cranking in a 5-6 sec burst, otherwise you're going to burn the starter!
So the keys to avoid the flood issue are
1. Always have the car fully warm up, if possible
2. If you plan to drive it on a very short trip, like in and out of your garage, make sure to rev it to 4k and hold it there for about 10 sec, and then turn off the engine right away.
12-29-2003, 04:28 PM
#21
Originally posted by pete325is
1. Always have the car fully warm up, if possible
2. If you plan to drive it on a very short trip, like in and out of your garage, make sure to rev it to 4k and hold it there for about 10 sec, and then turn off the engine right away.
1. Always have the car fully warm up, if possible
2. If you plan to drive it on a very short trip, like in and out of your garage, make sure to rev it to 4k and hold it there for about 10 sec, and then turn off the engine right away.
The engine will actually start to load up if you hold it there for 10 seconds.
Just rev it and crank the key to off as the tach passes 4k.
12-30-2003, 08:11 PM
#23
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No. The only time you are going to have flooding issues is if the car has not fully warmed up. Therefore, the only time you need to do the 4K rev shut off is if the engine has not warmed up.
