Need new coils
02-25-2009, 09:31 AM
#51
With as much snake oil and Kool-Aid as we drink when we build these things, especially Easy, I am surprised we have any left to ship to you guys! 
I am also surprised that all the praying we do to the BHR God of the Fanboi that we have time to build them, too.
I am also surprised that all the praying we do to the BHR God of the Fanboi that we have time to build them, too.
02-25-2009, 10:15 AM
#52
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There are plenty of products which are worth having that are not manufactured by rotary companies for the RX8. All three of those companies do make great products but to say that everything else isn't worth while is silly.
The RENESIS doesn't put the kind of stress on the Yukon ignition coils that would cause the coils to operate outside of their capability. The fact is that the yukon coils share the same dwell characteristics which are required of the RX8 ignition system. There's plenty of information and research about this subject including several early adopters.
Either way, currently we have approx 60 kits in the field and a pre-order list that continues to grow every day.
In regards to "testing" and dyno graphs...we have already done all that. We have done our testing on the street, on the race track and done both in some of the harshest climate that exists in the United States. We don't test our products on customer cars, we use our own.
I don't believe that this is a BHR hating situation. The fact is these questions have all been covered several times so I invite you to either search for the information or PM some of the 60 people who have bought our kit and get their impressions.
The RENESIS doesn't put the kind of stress on the Yukon ignition coils that would cause the coils to operate outside of their capability. The fact is that the yukon coils share the same dwell characteristics which are required of the RX8 ignition system. There's plenty of information and research about this subject including several early adopters.
Either way, currently we have approx 60 kits in the field and a pre-order list that continues to grow every day.
In regards to "testing" and dyno graphs...we have already done all that. We have done our testing on the street, on the race track and done both in some of the harshest climate that exists in the United States. We don't test our products on customer cars, we use our own.
I don't believe that this is a BHR hating situation. The fact is these questions have all been covered several times so I invite you to either search for the information or PM some of the 60 people who have bought our kit and get their impressions.
02-25-2009, 10:27 AM
#53
01Racing, for what i read you have all the rights to ask something about a product in order to consider what will be best by yourself.
MSD coils were an early option that the guys at BHR have discarded for some reason (i believe durability but i'm not sure).
I had the opportunity to test both the systems during various track days and the yukon coils had the power to fulfill their tasks while the stock coils started misfiring after a while, especially during the summer.
As a racer, for what i understand you are, you might have different needs other than durability so you might find that there are "Better" coils out there for your application. A common user, even a track addict, won't care about that extra bit if he has to sacrifice the durability of the product.
This is why i think that this ignition upgrade is the best out there for the rx8. It is bullet proof and very reliable and can fulfill the needs of many applications without sacrificing longevity.
MSD coils were an early option that the guys at BHR have discarded for some reason (i believe durability but i'm not sure).
I had the opportunity to test both the systems during various track days and the yukon coils had the power to fulfill their tasks while the stock coils started misfiring after a while, especially during the summer.
As a racer, for what i understand you are, you might have different needs other than durability so you might find that there are "Better" coils out there for your application. A common user, even a track addict, won't care about that extra bit if he has to sacrifice the durability of the product.
This is why i think that this ignition upgrade is the best out there for the rx8. It is bullet proof and very reliable and can fulfill the needs of many applications without sacrificing longevity.
02-25-2009, 11:01 AM
#54
01Racing, Flash's last sentence stated that he (and as a rep of BHR, "we") did not see any "hate" and we and welcome questions and challenges about our products. Truth be told, BHR was the FIRST vendor to encourage such accountability amongst RX8-specific vendors and we stand behind everything we build for the RX-8 with warranties that are unmatched.
We may not give answers that will satiate everybody but that is the nature of the customer-satisfaction business.
One thing I like to point out to people is that the products intended for "racing" use are not typically intended for the varying climates and long service life that street-driven cars demand of them. As such, things like fluids and electrical components generally will not last as long as we expect them to and are designed with strict rebuild/maintenence regimens in mind. Case in point; NASCAR cars usually have a second MSD 6A-L box next to the one they use as a back-up because ignition systems are prone to failure in the middle of a race.
We also have a very highly-respected shop operator here in Phoenix who flat-out refuses to stand behind any dyno readings he gets when a client is using an ignition system from one of the most popular brands out there as they are prone to failure on street-driven cars.
Seriously professional drag race teams, like the Top Fuelers and Funny Cars rebuild their engines after every 1/4 mile pass.
Road racers also play similar margins in that component durability is a major element to their potential success, especially when racing on a severely limited budget.
BTW, BHR will happily warranty our Ignition System during use in race cars as well as street cars. We BEG people to break our stuff so we can learn form it and improve our products.
We may not give answers that will satiate everybody but that is the nature of the customer-satisfaction business.
One thing I like to point out to people is that the products intended for "racing" use are not typically intended for the varying climates and long service life that street-driven cars demand of them. As such, things like fluids and electrical components generally will not last as long as we expect them to and are designed with strict rebuild/maintenence regimens in mind. Case in point; NASCAR cars usually have a second MSD 6A-L box next to the one they use as a back-up because ignition systems are prone to failure in the middle of a race.
We also have a very highly-respected shop operator here in Phoenix who flat-out refuses to stand behind any dyno readings he gets when a client is using an ignition system from one of the most popular brands out there as they are prone to failure on street-driven cars.
Seriously professional drag race teams, like the Top Fuelers and Funny Cars rebuild their engines after every 1/4 mile pass.
Road racers also play similar margins in that component durability is a major element to their potential success, especially when racing on a severely limited budget.
BTW, BHR will happily warranty our Ignition System during use in race cars as well as street cars. We BEG people to break our stuff so we can learn form it and improve our products.
02-25-2009, 11:15 AM
#55
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OEM Coils lasted 6 months/10,000 KM
I need your help guys figuring this thing out:
Here's what happened
-Nov 2007 : bought a 2004 RX-8 GT
-May 2008 : coils malfunction detected by Mazda (though no CEL), 2 coils + 2 sparks changed on Rotor No1
-Nov 2008 : CEL flashing (code 302, 410), car won't rev more than 4000RPM : CAT changed under warranty, 2 coils + 4 sparks changed on Rotor No1/No2
-Nov 2008 : new starter installed (new sparks were installed 2 weeks before) and sounded great back then (very different from my old one which needed 8 cranks to start car)
-Feb 2009 : CEL on, PCM0420 code, CAT is damaged again, coils on Rotor No1 are misfiring a lot, need to be replaced.
Coils were bought from mazdatrix.com.
How can OEM coils die after 6 months/10,000KM of NORMAL usage (no track, racing)
What can force coils to die pre-maturaly ? I'm affraid that this time again after I change my coils, the problem will happen again and damage my CAT. Warranty ends in Sept 2009
Finally, what's a normal rate/amount of misfire (the one that can be seen when hooking car to PC for diagnostic). I'm having like 30 on Rotor 1 and an average of 10 on Rotor 2.
Hope you guys can point me in the right direction
Here's what happened
-Nov 2007 : bought a 2004 RX-8 GT
-May 2008 : coils malfunction detected by Mazda (though no CEL), 2 coils + 2 sparks changed on Rotor No1
-Nov 2008 : CEL flashing (code 302, 410), car won't rev more than 4000RPM : CAT changed under warranty, 2 coils + 4 sparks changed on Rotor No1/No2
-Nov 2008 : new starter installed (new sparks were installed 2 weeks before) and sounded great back then (very different from my old one which needed 8 cranks to start car)
-Feb 2009 : CEL on, PCM0420 code, CAT is damaged again, coils on Rotor No1 are misfiring a lot, need to be replaced.
Coils were bought from mazdatrix.com.
How can OEM coils die after 6 months/10,000KM of NORMAL usage (no track, racing)
What can force coils to die pre-maturaly ? I'm affraid that this time again after I change my coils, the problem will happen again and damage my CAT. Warranty ends in Sept 2009
Finally, what's a normal rate/amount of misfire (the one that can be seen when hooking car to PC for diagnostic). I'm having like 30 on Rotor 1 and an average of 10 on Rotor 2.
Hope you guys can point me in the right direction
02-25-2009, 02:22 PM
#56
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We may not give answers that will satiate everybody but that is the nature of the customer-satisfaction business.
BTW, BHR will happily warranty our Ignition System during use in race cars as well as street cars. We BEG people to break our stuff so we can learn form it and improve our products.
BTW, BHR will happily warranty our Ignition System during use in race cars as well as street cars. We BEG people to break our stuff so we can learn form it and improve our products.
As far as I'm concerned you're providing excellent customer service to your cusotmers, and to the community in general. At the moment I don't have a need to purchase anything from you guys, but the second that I do I won't hesitate to call you guys up.
Cheers!
02-25-2009, 02:46 PM
#59
You don't work for Mazda, nor do you work for GM. You did not manufacture either of the coils. You put together a solution by combining parts that you tested works well. I am asking to see your test data.
After I had asked you, you are either unwilling to share, or you do not have the data.
Which are you?
After I had asked you, you are either unwilling to share, or you do not have the data.
Which are you?
02-25-2009, 03:07 PM
#60
So, what you are telling ME is that no ignition company will give you the data you are seeking and you are attempting to hold BHR to a higher standard than the entire ignition industry holds itself. Mac11 tried the same approach regarding our radiators last year and he didn't initimidate me then, either.
If MSD, Mallory, Jacobs, Accel, et al, don't publish the info you are seeking why should I entertain your inquiry?
Perhaps you have simply exposed BHR for the frauds you think we are and should be satisfied with THAT.
What I love about self-proclaimed "engineers" is that they actually believe they can quantify every aspect of human existence. You do realize that the concept of mathematics is man-made, correct? As such, you guys still can't explain how bees or flies are able to actually fly when the math is said to indicate it to be "impossible".
The bottom line is that we racers, and not JUST BHR, stumbled onto a really cool little coil that is way better than anyone expected. This is why racers all around the world use it.
BTW, MoTeC and Haltech also specify the use of LS/Yukon coils with their systems. have you approached these companies (with much greater reputations than BHR) with the same incessant questioning?
I told you then, and I have told you now, as much as I am willing to disclose. If that doesn't satisfy you, don't by my stuff. I really care not what you think.
If MSD, Mallory, Jacobs, Accel, et al, don't publish the info you are seeking why should I entertain your inquiry?
Perhaps you have simply exposed BHR for the frauds you think we are and should be satisfied with THAT.
What I love about self-proclaimed "engineers" is that they actually believe they can quantify every aspect of human existence. You do realize that the concept of mathematics is man-made, correct? As such, you guys still can't explain how bees or flies are able to actually fly when the math is said to indicate it to be "impossible".
The bottom line is that we racers, and not JUST BHR, stumbled onto a really cool little coil that is way better than anyone expected. This is why racers all around the world use it.
BTW, MoTeC and Haltech also specify the use of LS/Yukon coils with their systems. have you approached these companies (with much greater reputations than BHR) with the same incessant questioning?
I told you then, and I have told you now, as much as I am willing to disclose. If that doesn't satisfy you, don't by my stuff. I really care not what you think.
Last edited by Charles R. Hill; 02-25-2009 at 03:09 PM.
02-25-2009, 03:26 PM
#61
Charles,
No need to get angry, I'm only trying to seek answers to questions that few people ask or bother to care. With your last statement in the reply, that is as much info as you can divulge; that is fine. Every business has the right to guard in secrecy any information they want. I just thought you might be a little different since you are an enthusiast yourself.
Again, in no way am I discrediting your work on testing this coil/plug/wire system; I am just a tiny fraction of the enthusiast community that want to seek objective data (quantitative measurements) as opposed to qualitative observations (words and more words).
Some people just like to see data and proof beyond merely words of praise before plunking down money on anything. Case in point, would anyone buy shamwow if one just advertised what it could do without any technical demonstration?
I will not ask you anymore questions on your BHR coil/plug product. I will tell you that if I do get my hands on that coil product of yours and I am able to do a side by side technical test of that versus the Mazda OEM coil, I will post my results here for the entire RX8 community to share
No need to get angry, I'm only trying to seek answers to questions that few people ask or bother to care. With your last statement in the reply, that is as much info as you can divulge; that is fine. Every business has the right to guard in secrecy any information they want. I just thought you might be a little different since you are an enthusiast yourself.
Again, in no way am I discrediting your work on testing this coil/plug/wire system; I am just a tiny fraction of the enthusiast community that want to seek objective data (quantitative measurements) as opposed to qualitative observations (words and more words).
Some people just like to see data and proof beyond merely words of praise before plunking down money on anything. Case in point, would anyone buy shamwow if one just advertised what it could do without any technical demonstration?
I will not ask you anymore questions on your BHR coil/plug product. I will tell you that if I do get my hands on that coil product of yours and I am able to do a side by side technical test of that versus the Mazda OEM coil, I will post my results here for the entire RX8 community to share
02-25-2009, 03:40 PM
#62
What makes you think I am angry?
Look, for the past 5 years I have always encouraged this exact kind of pressing we vendors for as much info as you can get from us and even moreso now that I am a vendor. You have done that and I applaud you for it.
However, there are also lengths to which I care NOT to discuss things and if you interpret that as proof that I don't know how this stuff works then that is your choice. The reality is that 99.9% of the people readinig this don't care about the data you are seeking, they don't care about "Polar Moments of Inertia" with flywheels, they don't care about "Temperature Delta" with radiators, they don't care about torsional load limits with axles, they don't care about any of the esoteric mathematics and jargon that surrounds this stuff.
All they care about is if this **** WORKS and whether or not we back up our claims with results and money-back warranties. Electrical output data and dyno charts do this product a great disservice as the tactile benefit is what we are selling. Along with the afore-mentioned snake oil and Kool-Aid.
Shamwow? THAT is an analogy you wish to make? Are you kidding me? Those who buy Shamwow are known to be repeatedly disappointed after receiving their product. Quite the contrary with the BHR Ignition System. I actually had a customer write me yesterday to ask if a perceived increase in power from the engine was to be expected as he thought he was getting better throttle response. Imagine a guy so satisfied with what he got from us that he had to write me in disbelief!
If I end up with a few extra coils I would be happy to forward them to you but with another round of kits to build I would rather use my materials to maintain satisfied customers.
Given the spirit of our discussion; have you seen any issue at all with the way MM approached Pettit, Esmeril, Fluid, and others regarding the claims they make? Because of him we have a Rule #7. Quite telling of the other vendors and how they react to scrutiny, eh?
Look, for the past 5 years I have always encouraged this exact kind of pressing we vendors for as much info as you can get from us and even moreso now that I am a vendor. You have done that and I applaud you for it.
However, there are also lengths to which I care NOT to discuss things and if you interpret that as proof that I don't know how this stuff works then that is your choice. The reality is that 99.9% of the people readinig this don't care about the data you are seeking, they don't care about "Polar Moments of Inertia" with flywheels, they don't care about "Temperature Delta" with radiators, they don't care about torsional load limits with axles, they don't care about any of the esoteric mathematics and jargon that surrounds this stuff.
All they care about is if this **** WORKS and whether or not we back up our claims with results and money-back warranties. Electrical output data and dyno charts do this product a great disservice as the tactile benefit is what we are selling. Along with the afore-mentioned snake oil and Kool-Aid.
Shamwow? THAT is an analogy you wish to make? Are you kidding me? Those who buy Shamwow are known to be repeatedly disappointed after receiving their product. Quite the contrary with the BHR Ignition System. I actually had a customer write me yesterday to ask if a perceived increase in power from the engine was to be expected as he thought he was getting better throttle response. Imagine a guy so satisfied with what he got from us that he had to write me in disbelief!
If I end up with a few extra coils I would be happy to forward them to you but with another round of kits to build I would rather use my materials to maintain satisfied customers.
Given the spirit of our discussion; have you seen any issue at all with the way MM approached Pettit, Esmeril, Fluid, and others regarding the claims they make? Because of him we have a Rule #7. Quite telling of the other vendors and how they react to scrutiny, eh?
Last edited by Charles R. Hill; 02-25-2009 at 03:43 PM.
02-25-2009, 04:34 PM
#64
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LOL this is getting entertaining... All i know is that once my stock coils pack it in (they've got 56,000km on them now!!!) then I am going to order a set of BHR coils and pop them in!!!
02-25-2009, 05:13 PM
#65
02-25-2009, 06:34 PM
#66
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02-25-2009, 09:47 PM
#67
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I believe that's sometime you're just too polite, that's all Charles.
Can anyone tell me if there's such thing as *bad ignition system* that is different from bad coils/sparks/wires ? Does the ignition system go beyond these parts?
My last pair of coils lasted 6 month a barely 10,000KM, I'm affraid to replace them (with BHR's) and damage them quickly again because of some other issue?
I'm technicaly cluesess when it comes to this.. advise please?
Can anyone tell me if there's such thing as *bad ignition system* that is different from bad coils/sparks/wires ? Does the ignition system go beyond these parts?
My last pair of coils lasted 6 month a barely 10,000KM, I'm affraid to replace them (with BHR's) and damage them quickly again because of some other issue?
I'm technicaly cluesess when it comes to this.. advise please?
02-26-2009, 08:56 AM
#68
Tommy, I am probably more like Bi-Polar.
IMO, the only thing likely to be prone to failure in the RX-8 ingnition system would be the coil ignitor transistor, and that might be due to the heat. However, I don't have the definitive answer.
The PCM simply delivers the operating voltage/current and the trigger signal that fires the coil.
IMO, the only thing likely to be prone to failure in the RX-8 ingnition system would be the coil ignitor transistor, and that might be due to the heat. However, I don't have the definitive answer.
The PCM simply delivers the operating voltage/current and the trigger signal that fires the coil.
02-26-2009, 09:31 AM
#70
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If anyone is that worried about technical data, why don't you buy one coil and put it to the test against the OEM. Then, you can educate yourself and the forum on your findings. Then if you do not want the coil, sell it on ebay. BHR, like most other companies, do not release a lot of technical data because the average Joe Schmo will not understand it. What they do understand is "This coil will outlast the OEM coil." As of the ShamWow, yes they have a demonstration, but so does every other product that doesn't work. They all show you it working great. Then you buy one and its a POS. Would people by Wheaties if there wasn't a picture of some sports star on the front eating them saying that they taste great? Probablly not.
Last edited by jmc23200; 02-26-2009 at 09:37 AM.
02-26-2009, 10:56 AM
#72
What makes you think I am angry?
Look, for the past 5 years I have always encouraged this exact kind of pressing we vendors for as much info as you can get from us and even moreso now that I am a vendor. You have done that and I applaud you for it.
However, there are also lengths to which I care NOT to discuss things and if you interpret that as proof that I don't know how this stuff works then that is your choice. The reality is that 99.9% of the people readinig this don't care about the data you are seeking, they don't care about "Polar Moments of Inertia" with flywheels, they don't care about "Temperature Delta" with radiators, they don't care about torsional load limits with axles, they don't care about any of the esoteric mathematics and jargon that surrounds this stuff.
All they care about is if this **** WORKS and whether or not we back up our claims with results and money-back warranties. Electrical output data and dyno charts do this product a great disservice as the tactile benefit is what we are selling. Along with the afore-mentioned snake oil and Kool-Aid.
Look, for the past 5 years I have always encouraged this exact kind of pressing we vendors for as much info as you can get from us and even moreso now that I am a vendor. You have done that and I applaud you for it.
However, there are also lengths to which I care NOT to discuss things and if you interpret that as proof that I don't know how this stuff works then that is your choice. The reality is that 99.9% of the people readinig this don't care about the data you are seeking, they don't care about "Polar Moments of Inertia" with flywheels, they don't care about "Temperature Delta" with radiators, they don't care about torsional load limits with axles, they don't care about any of the esoteric mathematics and jargon that surrounds this stuff.
All they care about is if this **** WORKS and whether or not we back up our claims with results and money-back warranties. Electrical output data and dyno charts do this product a great disservice as the tactile benefit is what we are selling. Along with the afore-mentioned snake oil and Kool-Aid.
Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality.
- Nikola Tesla
- Nikola Tesla
02-26-2009, 02:34 PM
#73
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However, I hope everyone that looks at our stuff knows there are a few facts behind every product.
1. Every BHR product we sell is tested on our own cars before it's put onto a customer car no matter what phase of development.
2. None of us at BHR develope parts we wouldn't use on our own cars. If it's not good enough for us, it's not good enough for you.
3. Everything we sell is backed by a hassle free warranty which is unmatched in the industry. In fact, you're more likely to not get hassled for finding flaws in our product.
4. Please please please break our stuff. Where have you heard that before?
5. BHR develops parts to solve problems that exist on the RX8. We do not make parts and scare people into buying them under false pretenses.
BHR looks forward to continuing to provide awesome stuff for the RX8 and I hope that you all, our customers, will continue to ensure it's the best out there.
1. Every BHR product we sell is tested on our own cars before it's put onto a customer car no matter what phase of development.
2. None of us at BHR develope parts we wouldn't use on our own cars. If it's not good enough for us, it's not good enough for you.
3. Everything we sell is backed by a hassle free warranty which is unmatched in the industry. In fact, you're more likely to not get hassled for finding flaws in our product.
4. Please please please break our stuff. Where have you heard that before?
5. BHR develops parts to solve problems that exist on the RX8. We do not make parts and scare people into buying them under false pretenses.
BHR looks forward to continuing to provide awesome stuff for the RX8 and I hope that you all, our customers, will continue to ensure it's the best out there.
Last edited by Flashwing; 02-26-2009 at 03:17 PM.
02-26-2009, 02:50 PM
#74
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Now why don't you ship me a kit for free! I don't mind paying for shipping since I'm in Canada... That's my contribution to BHR team
02-26-2009, 02:56 PM
#75
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What is the warranty on the BHR coils? Is there a warranty on the stock Mazda coils? Average install time for each? I assume Mazda would try to void the 100k engine warranty with non-stock coils even though they're better--siince this thread started out being about NA use, I suppose that's another consideration.
Last edited by robrecht; 02-26-2009 at 03:08 PM.