Kafka

or more specifically, Double Clutch Heel and Toe Downshifts

Al, from your racing experience, with a synchro equipped rx8, will it matter if you just heel and toe downshift against Double clutch heel and toe downshift?

Its less wear on the synchro for sure with double clutch heel toe...but what about speed itself?

I kinda go "WTF BBQ" when I saw the guy clutch 6 times for a 5-4-3-2 shift @ 0:17-0:20 of the video...is it necessary? Will it be faster just to do a Heel and Toe Downshift instead? Or its the other way round?

I do double clutch rev match downshift all the time just for the hell of it, but I think its slower than a normal rev match downshift??

Thank you.

Im_DANomite

iTrader: (1)

you don't need to double clutch. this ain't grandpa's old grand torino.

risky business

lol, thats a lot of clutch pushing. dont shift that fast, there is no need.

tubingchamp

iTrader: (3)

Yeah.. I have a feeling that was a race tranny with no synchromesh that guy was driving..

TheBurkeMan

yeah double clutching is for older cars that dont have good syncros...you dont need to do it

Kafka

Its actually a STOCK tranny of a Impreza WRX...

the driver started his racining in open-wheel without synchro I think...

tubingchamp

iTrader: (3)

That's why he does it.

Footman

iTrader: (2)

it's definitely risky business to shift that fast LOL j/k...

tubingchamp

iTrader: (3)

Lol :D Agreed..

If you don't know exactly what you're doing, you could really grind some **** good. It's just completely unnecessary to learn how to do that..

Footman

iTrader: (2)

My problem is...

I'm trying to practice heel and toe downshifting,but I can't find where I can practice that in the city (not on a track). Parking lots are nice, but not enough speed? I dont 'know.. any suggestions?

So far, the only practice I get are highway off ramps, and junction ramps (such as 404 southbound to 401 eastbound).

Any suggestions on where one can practice heel and toe downshifting in the city? I've been practicing a lot of regular rev-match downshifting (clutch in, gas blip, clutch out).

tubingchamp

iTrader: (3)

Ditto to you Footman.

I'm at about the same stage...

I blip before every downshift, but I can't get the feel for heel-toe (haven't really tried hard)..

cloud7

double clutch to heel toe downshift is a good skill to have in your driving toolbox IMO, especially if you are planning to do any kind of racing. It is nice to to know in an endurance race that your tranny won't develop problems because you are easier on the tranny by double clutching.

cloud7

Just practice in a straight line for now when no body is around... You also don't have to be going fast to do it, if you're just trying to get a feel for it. If you're a newbie in heel toe downshifting, I would highly recommend that you do not practice it before going on ramps, and curves... the last thing you wanna do is lock the rear wheels just before turning.

Kafka

ic...you mean less stress on the synchro since you are "syncing" the tranny yourself right?

cjkim

not sure why you would need something specific to practice,
i mean, you can technically practice at every stop you come to, every green light you turn on. you might look stupid, but it works :|
you don't necessarily HAVE to go fast.. probably better to start slow if anything, since it might be difficult to blip the correct amount in the upper ranges

Kafka

I concurr, Rx8 stock pedals are much easier than most "sports sedan" alrdy in doing a heel-toe...you don't need to hard brake to pivot the gas blip...

The double-clutch rev-match is so much fun if you made it...its like....hm...jerking off perfectly. I know its wrong choice of words but when you made it a perfect 4th to 3rd double-clutch rev-match down shift, its just feel so goooooooooooood

Footman

iTrader: (2)

Am I still supposed to "gradually" press the brake in when I do heel-and-toe? If I slam the brakes like I see professional drivers do, wouldn't that look very excessive coming to a stop at a light?

I find it very hard to pivot the foot in a way that I'm NOT slamming the brakes and blipping the throttle at the same time.

Thumper3322

Footman it's much easier (that I find) when you are on a track since you are going harder and hammer the brakes before the turn and the same time clutch in and blipping the throttle. It's much harder to only lightly hit the brakes and then try the heal-toe, since your toes aren't pushing so hard, yet your heal has to hit the gas hard. I find the easiest thing to do (not all the time tho) is when you know you are coming to a turn (usually right on the streets), and just go into it a bit harder/faster and/or brake a bit later or harder than you normally would. Then you can do the harder braking and heal-toe.

My two cents.

Kafka - DIRTY!!!

REV-illusions

iTrader: (3)

That's just how it is.. I've taught myself how to do this during everyday drives.. as a most people have said... it's really not about what speed you're going at.. just that you can do it smoothly. You're pretty much doing the exact same thing at higher speeds anyways.

A lot of this comes from the position of your foot when you actually do the heel-toe. For me I have the ball of my foot on the brake and the side of my foot on the very corner of the gas. That way when I push down on the brake the side of my foot naturally hits the gas.... and I can just let my foot slide off the gas when I'm done. I find it to be less akward. Normally you don't need to hit the gas too much in any case.

Also.. having the right shoes on makes a bit of difference as well. For me having a flat soled shoe with on makes life easier... try to stay away from anything with too much tread or for foot wont slide off the pedal's as easily.

Thumper3322

CHEATER!!

qtwre

iTrader: (1)

I pivot my heel to the gas pedal and give it a stab.

REV-illusions

iTrader: (3)

How's that cheating? Everyone has their own style...

you could be like the red baron and put the ball of your foot on the clutch and heel the brake... if you wanted :p

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

A wider pedal helps heaps - i made the one below out of 3mm al. flat bar .
As far as practicing heel toe - not something for the street really . You could try it on a deserted road somewhere .
Best place to practice it is at the track because that is the only environment that you can do it properly . No way do you want to be braking that hard on the street.

climacus

Find a bridge with a set of traffic light at the bottom of the bridge. If you time it right, you have to come to a complete stop at the bottom of the bridge. Because you have to dip deeper into the brakes as you come off the bridge, it makes learning heel-n-toe'ing much easier.

I'm sure people can tell you locations of such stupidly-designed intersections near where they live. I'll start you off with the one near where I'm. Southbound Whites Rd and Sheppard in Pickering.

Google Map - Whites & Sheppard

Double-clutching really slows you down at the track, but it's a good habit to have when you are not in a hurry. It feels wrong to just jam the gearbox into a lower gear.

rotarygreg

when i used to drive a metro way back in the day i decided to learn how to heal toe, double clutch, rev match (even shifting without the clutch completely, all though never in my rx8), and left foot braking. Then i got my swift GT and having an engine that actually responds to the throttle made a huge difference. i actually couldnt beleive i could rev match in the 3 cylinder after getting into the peppy 4 cylinder. Then i got my lancer ralliart which responds as good, if not better than an rx8 (at least at lower revs). When i had that car, i was hooked on all those "performance" driving techniques. as soon as winter rolled around, i got really good at left foot braking. I also bought some WRC/Sparco racing/street shoes that have a really light sole and made manipulating the pedals even easier. My girlfriend was amazed i could do all that with my feet behind the wheel, but still couldnt dance to save my life.

I cant imagine ever actually needing these skills, but i've done them so often that its involuntary now. The other day i took a manual mazda trubite for a road test and slowing for a corner i wast heal-toeing and missed the gas pedal. it through me off so much i missed the turn and had to go around the block. lol. The pedal was so far away from the brake it was almost imposible to hit it with my heal. But honestly, the RX8 is just about perfect for it. I find the brake pedal is pretty far to the left and that puts my right leg in a good position to allow pivoting. Also, having your seat as low as you can deal with helps as well. If your legs are more out then down, you can pivot your foot easier.

Also, if you ever find yourself owning a FWD car again, left foot braking (although this one is sort of dangerous to learn on public roads) is the only way to have fun in one while still maintaning control IMO. Ebrake turns feel so dangerous and out of control now that im pretty good at the LFB technique.

And ya josh, i know what you are saying. when you nail a perfect downshift its just sex. The smoothness in the shifter, the engine braking coming on so smooth and perfectly....the worst part is most passengers wont appreciate it like you do yourself. lol.

Im really curious to have my first track experience to see if what i've programmed myself to do will still coming smoothly when im pushing and at higher cornering speeds