01Racing

http://www.autoblog.com/page/4/
Scroll down a bit!

AJ's Shinka

If you believe everything on the internets, then it is so. There have been other threads on this...

mscamp02

iTrader: (3)

I would bet that it does because I cant see mazda keeping 2 rotary powered vehicles in production at one time. But then again I could be wrong

Sanguine

Even as good as the 8 is, I can't really see it lasting 10+ years. Though, I don't really understand the face-lifting of the 2009s unless Mazda plan on keeping it alive. Maybe like the North American Ford Focus, they face-lifted the car in 2005 to span the years it would take to bring the C1 Focus to NA. After it was decided not to use the C1 chassis, they face-fitted the car again in 2008.

As to the whole "FE" RX-7 verses "SF" RX-9 speculation, I personally like the 250hp, sub 1300kg, two door two seat, 6sp dual clutch rumour... more S2000/Genesis 2.0T than 370Z/Genesis 3.8.

thewird

If the next rotary powered vehicle isn't 300+ HP, I will be really disappointed in Mazda for a second time.

thewird

ARE-EX-8

truee that ^^

climacus

Considering that Mazda is in the middle of divorcing Ford and ending the platform sharing program, they probably have much more pressing issues on their hand than pushing out another money-losing RX model. My guess is the 8 will end up like the S2000. They will keep it around for a couple more years and kill it off when sales have finally tail off. The timetable for the next RX sports car will depend on the economy, USDJPY exchange rate, and oil prices. If the USD doesn't recover (or tank hard thanks to all the money printing), you will never see another RX for a long long time.

thewird

It doesn't cost that much to make a rotary have power, I don't get it. Especially when you have plenty of time to engineer your own parts and find ways of making them cheap and reliable.

Using their 1.6X engine that is pretty much near completion from all the data on it, and assuming you can just use the liters to calculate horsepower based off the the renesis which is the latest Mazda engine. You come out with 292 HP at the crack with torque that you can feel. Now we can also assume that direct injection will add an unknown amount of horsepower so we can pretty much assume that Mazda can do 300 HP with barely any work using the 1.6X engine.

Now thats putting absolutely no work into the next generation car considering the 1.6X engine is ready for production. If they were to put a damn turbo on the car, even a small fast responding one with low boost, they could easily release a 350 HP car that is reliable.

Now considering the car will have a lot more usuable torque, the transmission won't have to be geared retarded like the RX-8 is (for everyday driving and fuel efficiency). Also, since the 16X is lighter, it will improve all this even more with a lighter car.

Having said all this WHY would Mazda make a slower car then the RX-8 when they have all the ingredients to make a much better car? Guess they like going backwards with cars. Maybe the RX-10 will be a family car with 160 HP?

thewird

rotarygreg

man, you are looking at this from a performance aspect only. their biggest concerns right now in making the rotary a useable and generally accepted power plant is fuel economy and emissions, plain and simple. Yes, maybe the direct injection will make for a little better fuel consumption and more power...lighter might mean better performance with better or the same fuel consumption. but the fact is, they are gonna have to make giant leaps in all areas with the next rotary, otherwise, its not likely to slip by this time.

01Racing

Dollar per horsepower rotaries are almost the most expensive engines on the planet! If you take buying all new parts, and I mean all new a P.Port is about $15000 with labor. Thats to produce about 330HP. V8's that are n/a would produce double that HP number and be no less fuel efficient and emission friendly. The main reason rotary cars have been used in racing is the weight reduction in the engine, and most sanctioning bodies have always used displacement to weight calculation making them attractive to use. Now that the calculation has changed most have switched back to pistons.

thewird

I agree with them completely on their goal on improving the efficiency of the engine. However, they have to realize they are getting left behind in the performance market which is what a rotary engine is best at.

Something I could never understand, my currently 17 year old car that has modified out the pants with a BIG street port and a medium sized turbo making 400+ rwhp is has better MPG then a STOCK RX-8. I also know that my car had much better fuel mileage when it was stock.

Now can you tell me why a 17 year old car modified to the teeth making twice the crank HP has better MPG then a the latest Mazda engineering on an engine that makes less power? Well actually I know why; bigger ports (then stock FD3S ports), heavier car, gearbox with really short close gears.

This is what I mean by going backwards. So you made an NA with close the HP as the your 17 year old turbo brother and is more reliable due to the fact that it is an NA rotary but the MPG has not improved if thats what your looking for.

Now for those of you that know, adding a turbo to your car does not make it less fuel efficient. It actually improves efficiency since it is using free exhaust energy to aid the engine in sucking the air and also atomizing the air. This is assuming you are not in boost of course.

As far as I know emissions does not care what your car does in WOT/Boost conditions and all tests are done with normal driving including the cat life expectancy tests.

So you can offer a car with more performance but the same or improved MPG. Isn't that a lot more attractive? Granted, this will increase the cost somewhat but i don't see it increasing by much. At a minimum I'd like to see Mazda release 2 models like they had with the 2nd gen, an N/A model and turbo model. If Mazda did that, then I would be a happy camper even if their N/A had less then 200 HP.

This is my own opinion, I respect everyone elses opinion's and like hearing what other people think as well. Just mentioning this because I don't like to start arguments!

PS - Al, you and I both know that it is extremely rare that a race car with a rotary in it is built from new parts. You can build the same setup for significantly cheaper if you have the will to look around. Not to mention the fact, that you can get a 20b cosmo engine for ~4k, get it peripheral ported, go old school with carbs. And you have a 450+ crank HP engine that doesn't weigh much more or cost much more then a 13b and thats keeping the RPM's below 9k RPM. Cable of running down higher horsepower piston engines.

PS2 - I apologize if my thoughts are a little jumbled as I haven't slept yet.

thewird

01Racing

Most of us who have raced rotaries have learned the hard way about used parts. That is why the current engine in the car was all new, from the side plates, rotors, bearings etc. By the time you take a rebuildable 20B, buy 3 P.Port housings at $1000.00 each USD etc, even if you didnt buy any other new parts you still would have a $15,000 engine that was as heavy as a V8 with about 200-300 less horsepower. Dont forget the Pro teams that are racing rotaries (SpeedSource etc) are Mazda funded and sponsored. You can bet if it was their own dime they wouldnt be going that route. Dont get me wrong, the Rotary build tremendous power for it size etc, but unless Mazda can develop one that is much more efficent with a lot more torque I believe its time has come.

20b-3rotor

iTrader: (2)

A 20B PP does hit the pocket hard... a little more torque out of a rotary would be nice.
Al not sure if you seen this video.. Now if we just had a proper gearbox the torque might not have not been a be deal to catch the other cars
http://www.vimeo.com/1661927

01Racing

Seen the video, your car is amazing! Just for an FYI if you would, share how much labor would have been if you charged a customer the development cost you have in that amazing engine!

20b-3rotor

iTrader: (2)

About 4-5 years ago (haven't check the new pricing on some parts) it would cost you about $15,000 USD plus a core. And that would give a you a fresh 20B PP with ceramic seals new housings, bearings etc.. clutch,flywheel drysump, Intake system. You would still need your EMS, header,air box etc.

That would give you about 8 weekends of racing about one race season and then it would need to be refresh. new springs maybe bearings depending on ....

We ran our engine to almost the limit RPM wise... shift light was about 9200rpm but shifting aroung 9400-9500.. Thats because the stock trany was no help... So we would refresh the motor after the 4th weekend...

01Racing

I appreciate that so far, what is the ems worth plus your labor time if you were charging someone to build the engine? Also what was your rear wheel hp number? I believe I heard it was about 385-390?

20b-3rotor

iTrader: (2)

Haltech would be around 2000... plus tuning 500-1000 plus install of the system

The labour for building the engine was included in the 15 000...

The highest we made was about 351 or something like that in 3rd gear.. on a mustang dyno... thats with 18x12 and 335 toyos. We can still get more out of it with different injector sizes, different intake lengh and airbox...

Kafka

Al whats your plan for next year regarding to racing anyways?

huckfarper

It moved. See: http://www.autoblog.com/2009/12/26/m...aces-for-2012/

ZumnRx8

Time will tell....

01Racing

I haven't really made up my mine on what I am doing for 2010 as yet. The car is complete and ready to go (sitting in my garage at home) and I still have the full support of my sponsors (BFGoodrich, Mazmark Auto, Rytech X-ray, NGK, Eurasia Auto Center, Millennium Graphics and Inkwell Marketing for the 2010 season. The big issue is racing a Mazda quite frankly. After 22 years with MCI, their statement earlier in the year about "being too concerned with racing and not enough on selling cars" still bothers me immensely. Its hard to go out and race knowing that you are representing a brand (Canada Only I have to say) that treated you that way. Their parent company Mazda USA on the other hand fully supported anything we did, as you all saw at the MazdaSpeed North event.

Here is the email i received the afternoon of the event once it was over:

"Great news, Alan… Thanks for your efforts in making this special. Mazda is about passion and a strong enthusiast following comes with that. Thanks for sharing that passion… To tie motorsports to retail is a key part of our strategy. Between your event and the event we held in Orlando back in March we have engaged over 1,000 owners on site at Mazda dealers. Thanks again-"

From MCI 2 days later:

"Gentlemen,
Congratulations, I heard Sunday went very well."

I am sure after reading these you understand why I made the decisions I did.

I will probably run the car on the Mothers Day weekend and do the pace car for charity thing if the club still wants to do it. After that we will wait and see.

TCI (Toyota Canada Inc) is very supportive of my enthusiasm, and I will look into a tube style car with a Tundra or Camry body on it for the future.

Sanguine

So am I going to have to buy Toyota to do a Mother's Day lunch time pace lap?

thewird

Just come to an actual lapping day. If you need info, message me in the spring/summer.

thewird

Kafka

Or if you replace the Mazda emblem with a Toyota and call it Camry RX lolz

Al, I can tell you now this will pretty much be my first and last Mazda...I only bought the car that day in 2008 because of the passion in motorsports I see from you.

Anyways, the events we did last year is memorable and I appreciate the group effort. Its been a very rewarding experience to a lot of us.

Thanks and I really hope we can work something out on getting more ppl into tracking and amateur motorsports...

Sanguine

Lexus made a RX 130 crossover/baby SUV with 2+2 seating right?