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Look up the "wasted spark" concept and note that the D-585 coils are capable of being used in such a fashion.
Hey Charles!
Thanks for pointing that out to me. I did not know about that; nor have I ever heard about that before. I did look it up, and the concept is still pretty confusing for me...
Would you mind putting it into layman's term for me?
So far my understanding is that it would be able to fire both spark plugs simultaneously; which I imagine it would be a more even, and balanced, combustion in a rotary engine. Maybe there is something I am not comprehending about this concept though.
Last edited by Sato Tatsuya; 09-28-2015 at 04:34 PM.
Thanks for pointing that out to me. I did not know about that; nor have I ever heard about that before. I did look it up, and the concept is still pretty confusing for me...
Would you mind putting it into layman's term for me?
So far my understanding is that it would be able to fire both spark plugs simultaneously; which I imagine it would be a more even, and balanced, combustion in a rotary engine. Maybe there is something I am not comprehending about this concept though.
The point I was making is that a 4-stroke piston engine which uses "wasted spark" programming in the PCM places the same demands on the ignition coils that 2-stroke piston engines and rotary engines place on their coils.
The two main reasons piston/4-cycle engines use the wasted spark concept is because it allows half the coils to be used on a given engine and it allows half the PCM resolution necessary to properly time the ignition events.
Given the split timing concept, Mazda had to use a VERY high-resolution PCM to accomplish proper ignition timing events as well as a coil-near-plug set up.
The point I was making is that a 4-stroke piston engine which uses "wasted spark" programming in the PCM places the same demands on the ignition coils that 2-stroke piston engines and rotary engines place on their coils.
The two main reasons piston/4-cycle engines use the wasted spark concept is because it allows half the coils to be used on a given engine and it allows half the PCM resolution necessary to properly time the ignition events.
Given the split timing concept, Mazda had to use a VERY high-resolution PCM to accomplish proper ignition timing events as well as a coil-near-plug set up.
Oh, I see, so it sounds like maybe the SakeBomb coils are incompatible for the rotary engine (or at least the RX-8)? Since the PCM was designed for a particular coil set-up.
Having said that, is this description about the SakeBomb product thus irrelevant?
"Rotary and two-stroke motors behave very similarly with twice the ignition events per revolution compared to a standard 4 stroke motor (which more coils are designed for)."
Oh, I see, so it sounds like maybe the SakeBomb coils are incompatible for the rotary engine (or at least the RX-8)? Since the PCM was designed for a particular coil set-up.
Having said that, is this description about the SakeBomb product thus irrelevant?
"Rotary and two-stroke motors behave very similarly with twice the ignition events per revolution compared to a standard 4 stroke motor (which more coils are designed for)."
You are overthinking this......either coil will work. They both have plus and minuses
The IGN1a coils in the Sakebomb kit were designed to work with closer to stock dwell
The D585 coils in the BHR kit like more dwell for maximum output...
both make way more than STOCK coil output at STOCK dwell.......
And here we go again talking about **** that doesn't matter to distract from reality. The only thing that matters is...
1) D-585 are **** for high boost turbo (or at minimum the BHR implementation of it)
2) AEM Coils/Marine coils are the best reasonably priced CDI spark capable coil available and the Sakebomb implementation of it was properly done, not cheaply done to save a few dollars
Originally Posted by dannobre
You are overthinking this......either coil will work. They both have plus and minuses
The IGN1a coils in the Sakebomb kit were designed to work with closer to stock dwell
The D585 coils in the BHR kit like more dwell for maximum output...
both make way more than STOCK coil output at STOCK dwell.......
This is not true for the BHR coils. Cars run worse on BHR coils then HEALTHY stock coils on stock dwell. This has been proven. The AEM coil is just a better coil, you don't have to overheat the coil to get some kind of spark output out of it that doesn't last because it overheats. Needing 5ms of dwell time on an engine that revs to 9k is ridiculous.
BHR stock ECU vs tuned BHR, why is their breakup on a 100% bone stock car with 50k km on the engine... I typically see 178-184 rwhp on stock coils tuned with a stock tune usually getting around 176-180 rwhp, I have seen no real power gains from BHR coils unless the stock coils were toast. But i do consistently see a healthy setup performing worse then stock on BHR coils until its tuned. A lot of people wouldn't bother testing healthy OEM coils vs BHR coils because once you have upgraded aftermarket, why would you use stock right? Except those aftermarket coils are junk unless you up the dwell. Aftermarket stock replacement would probably work better (never tested this but I wouldn't be surprised).
[...] But i do consistently see a healthy setup performing worse then stock on BHR coils until its tuned.[...]
Interesting, so, if I'm understanding you correctly tuning brings the BHR ignition back to stock power output or at least that has been what you've seen?
Interesting, so, if I'm understanding you correctly tuning brings the BHR ignition back to stock power output or at least that has been what you've seen?
(Thanks for the reply)
Tuning the ECU (increasing the dwell) would have a higher spark output then OEM coils but its less until it is tuned.
Hmmm this is kind of concerning me. I fitted the BHR kit earlier this year. Stock engine on stock tune. I didn't notice any power loss.. but now I'm thinking perhaps I should buy a set of OEM coils to try out? Do the ignition wires supplied by BHR fit with OEM coils?
Hmmm this is kind of concerning me. I fitted the BHR kit earlier this year. Stock engine on stock tune. I didn't notice any power loss.. but now I'm thinking perhaps I should buy a set of OEM coils to try out? Do the ignition wires supplied by BHR fit with OEM coils?
Well, I really wouldn't be concerned per say. Just get the ECU tuned which has other benefits then just the dwell like increased OMP rates for engine longevity. Mazdaedit works on ALL ecu's. Your engine will be happier.
Yup... Mep is the tool you need. It is more functional than the AP anyway.
I did a few search and reading on the AP vs. Mazdaedit comparison. A lot of people say that the AP is more functional compared to the basic Mazdaedit. I've never used it before, so is that true?
It's editing the same maps... How is it more functional lol.
thewird
Haha, yeah you're right! Lol!
Originally Posted by ShellDude
Mep has access to more of the maps and is updated 3-4 times a year as new maps are found and labelled.
Cobb hasn't touched the AP since they shitcanned the 8 5+ years ago.
There is no debate. I have no idea what would possess someone to think the AP is more functional than MEP.
Yeah, I knew that the MEP is still consistently updating, which I knew that it will still be relevant. I think I read somewhere that the software was more practical? In any case, I know it doesn't matte, because MEP is undoubtedly the more relevant one. Thanks!
Yeah, I knew that the MEP is still consistently updating, which I knew that it will still be relevant. I think I read somewhere that the software was more practical? In any case, I know it doesn't matte, because MEP is undoubtedly the more relevant one. Thanks!
Just do your homework and educate yourself. Then you will be educated enough to determine was is "proof" and what is horse ****. You will save yourself a lot of agony down the road by trying to learn as much as you can from various sources..
I know this is thewird's ignition rant thread.... sorry for digressing but on top of everything else mentioned, MEP works with ANY RX8, all model years, all market variants, series 1 and series 2.
Oh, I see, so it sounds like maybe the SakeBomb coils are incompatible for the rotary engine (or at least the RX-8)? Since the PCM was designed for a particular coil set-up.
Having said that, is this description about the SakeBomb product thus irrelevant?
"Rotary and two-stroke motors behave very similarly with twice the ignition events per revolution compared to a standard 4 stroke motor (which more coils are designed for)."
No, the inverse; the 1GN coils are not exclusively nor particularly suited to the needs of rotary engines. I understand the curiosity the Mercury coils are generating and I looked into them a long time ago, myself, but I do not see where they were of such a difference that I should upheave my entire ignition system to embrace a coil that I do not think offers unique benefits to rotary owners. The theory that the Mercury coils are better suited might be validated were it not for the fact that the D-585 coils are used in wasted spark applications.
^ And this is exactly why RX-8 knowledge doesn't evolve sigh... Lets just keep using the same garbage that others feed us.
What the hell does that prove in any way when there is proof over and over again that the coils can't take high demand on OUR engines. You know the ones were using it on? Stop reading and start testing to make conclusions based on results, not theory. Theory wastes peoples time and money.
And I guess the dozens of us others running the D585's for years without ignition issues isn't proof of anything, lol. But let me guess our various setups are not "high demand". But we have set of the Sake bomb coils here that have yet to be installed so we shall see since the car they are going on has had a set of BHR coils on it for years.
09-25-2015, 12:04 PM
