NOTE: This is a repost of what Craig and I had to say in the RX-8 Competition forum about a track day we had a few weeks ago. I just thought people who missed it there (since it was buried in another post) might find it at least slightly interesting. This is not meant to suggest we've achieved objective proof on anything, merely that on one track day with two different cars here's what we observed......

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(My comments):

While we're bench racing Zs vs. RX-8s, I can claim some relevant experience. This is of course not scientific proof of anything, merely a few observations.

Craig has an '06 350Z Enthusiast. It was on OEM tires (RE040s), has Koni shocks, a Whiteline adjustable rear swaybar, our prototype front BBK (Wilwood-based) with Carbotech XP10s all around, and a 3" JIC Exhaust and y-pipe.

I have an '04 RX-8 GT. It's on 245/40 Avon M500s, has Tokico D-specs with Tein H-techs, Whiteline adjustable sways front and rear, Carbotech XP8s all around, AEM intake, and MS Sport Exhaust.

We were up at Mid-America Motorplex a few weeks ago, which is a 2.2 mile track just south of Omaha, NE in Iowa. It is VERY flat, with 14 turns and very good pavement. It was below freezing the first half of the day, and just above freezing the second half of the day with a gentle 30-35mph wind. Really lovely, let me tell you. But by late morning the sun was putting some heat into the track, and within 2 laps of a given session you could run pretty much normally. Prior to that, be ready to do lots of sliding on cold tires . That thing you hear about 'summer' tires not being so grippy below 40 degrees or so? Yeah, that's right.

Anyway, this was essentially my first track day in an RX-8. I had it on track at Hallett for a few short sessions last year, but that day was cut short for reasons I'm 100% sure no one wants details on. At any rate, I've been tracking Subarus of sorts for the previous 5 years, and one could say the RX-8 is a bit different than a WRX or STI. Or a lot different. Point being, I was pretty slow because I'm not used to driving a proper RWD sports car, much less a car with a lot more chassis than power (Subarus are the opposite in that respect). Craig used to have an RX-8, and had probably 500-600 track miles in his on a few different tracks. And he has at least that many on the Z, probably more. I would consider us comparable drivers, but Craig has a lot more seat time in sports cars than I do (A Subaru, while fast around a track, isn't exactly a sports car), and is probably a bit more adept overall at getting the most out of a car that isn't a Subaru.

Before this gets too long, which may be too late now, the point is that later in the day we swapped cars. The approximate best times look like this:

Phil in RX-8 - 1:55
Craig in RX-8 - 1:52
(Yes, Craig waxed me in my own car )

Phil in 350Z - 1:52
Craig in 350Z - 1:49
(Yes, Craig also waxed me in his car)

So as you can see, given the cars that day, on that track, the 350Z was certainly a bit quicker. Given more seat time in the RX-8, Craig might have found another second and made it closer, but upon riding with him in the RX-8 even later in the day it didn't feel like there was a lot left on the table. There's always some left of course, as we aren't pro racers or anything, but given the constraints we were working in that was how it came out.

Times notwithstanding, the RX-8 is a MUCH better track car than the Z. Obviously won't get around a track as fast, but is much more rewarding to drive. The Z has crappy brake feel even with the BBK, and despite his being a 2006 with 10k miles on it it already has loads of knockback (front wheel bearings are probably getting loose). Not exactly confidence inspiring. But you should have felt it with the OEM brakes; scary! The motor is quite nice of course, and the steering feels decent, but you're just not connected with the car quite like you are in the RX-8. Just a lot more rubber bushings between you and the road it feels like. And in extreme maneuvers you feel entire sub-assemblies shifting around under there with groans and clunks. It's not a bad car, and is a fast car, but it's not an RX-8. And that's not just my opinion either; Craig will very likely be trading the Z off for an RX-8 within the next 6 months .

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(Craig's Follow-up comments in the same thread):

OK, I'm going to chime in now. I'm Craig, the one who Phil mentioned.

At Mid America Motorplex (MAM), the Z and 8 were only about 3 seconds apart. I'm pretty sure I had another 1 second in me in the 8 with another session or two, so we'll call them 2-3 seconds a lap apart. I'm pretty confident I was extracting as much as I could (emphasis on "I", as a faster driver no doubt could have done better) from the Z for the day.

On the other tracks we visit, the Z is more seconds per lap faster - MAM is friendlier to the RX-8 than other tracks, as there are no uphill climbs out of slow corners like those at Hallett or Heartland Park, our other frequent haunts. MAM is literally flat, no elevation changes, and cars spend a lot of time cornering or transitioning. It's a track that rewards cars that are balanced and that can rotate effectively.

That is a key strength of the RX-8 - it can rotate on command. The Z requires a lot of patience to hustle it around a track effectively. You spend a lot of time waiting for the ship to turn, focusing on maximizing the amount of time you spend accelerating since that car is all about the time spent on the throttle. But, the cornering is never really all that enjoyable since you're mostly understeering. And, as Phil mentioned, the brakes kind of suck from the factory, and with the DPE BBK on it they are much improved but the knockback is ever-present and one has to keep an eye on that, which can take a little bit of the fun out of it.

By contrast, the RX-8 is all about brakes and cornering. What's the most fun part of driving on track? Braking and cornering!!! Anyone can put their foot down and accelerate down the straight. But, the RX-8 relishes and devours corners, as opposed to merely tolerating them as in the Z. I would say that I can get through a fair number of corners nearly as fast in the Z as in Phil's RX-8, but I can't get on the gas as early and it's not nearly as fun. You don't get to throw the Z into a corner like you do the 8. You have to gently and patiently bend it into a corner in an effort not to overwhelm the front tires. With the RX-8, you can throw it at a corner and enjoy the balancing act all the way through it.

Add to that brakes that are always effective (with proper pads and fluid) and a pedal that's always where you left it (unlike the pedal in a Z, WRX, STI, etc.), dual oil coolers to keep oil temps in check, a reasonably effective radiator, built-in brake cooling, and (here's the kicker) loads of alignment adjustability from the factory unlike the Z, WRX/STI, etc., and the RX-8 makes for a car that is really built for track duty.

The Z will be the first to overheat in my experience, will be the hardest to keep brakes under it, will overheat its tires quickest, has a less effective diff, has terrible brake feel, has loads of rubber bushings between you and the road to cut down on driving feel, and generally just doesn't feel all that inspiring to drive on track. In a Z, you coax it around the track for the quickest lap. In an RX-8, when you drive it as fast as you can, you feel like you have really wrung the neck of the car for the best it can do.

The RX-8 is just a pure driver's car, rewarding, communicative, and responsive. The Z, STI, etc., may be faster, but they aren't more enjoyable on track in my opinion (and I've driven a Z, Phil's well-modified WRX, and Phil's moderately modified STI on track enough to know). There's very good reason that my next car will likely be the same as my previous car, another RX-8. It's just a whole lot more fun to drive on track (for me, anyway) than a Z. I don't care about being slower than I am in the Z, but I do care about grinning like an idiot when I come off track, and that's what the RX-8 offers. After driving Phil's RX-8 (which is very well setup, I should add) at MAM, I was ready to go trade the Z in for the first RX-8 I found when I got back home. Sure, I put a few seconds a lap on him in the Z, but I didn't come off track in the Z with the same kind of high that I did from driving the RX-8. That's the same way I felt each time I came off track in my own RX-8. I miss that feeling.

Ultimately it boils down to this, in my opinion: are you more about the end or the means? If lap times and track domination are your thing, the RX-8 isn't your car. If you're more about extracting the most enjoyment from each lap, with the least amount of fuss and bother and work and modification to your street car, I would bet there are few cars out there that are better than the RX-8.

 

Great write up guys . I think at times us 8 drivers get a little bit of a complex about the fact that our cars aren't the fastest sports car out there . Most of us know the handling is great but still there is that little niggle about power - your write up puts that into perspective beutifully .

 

Great write-up, and really pretty much summarizes what Mazda owners have known for a long time - it's not all about numbers.

 

so no chance of you guys getting FI and getting the best of both worlds?

 

niceeeeeeeeee

 

Phil and Craig, excellent review of two fine sports cars. I think you should post this on my350z.com under the thread of the C&D latest comparison of the 350z, Mustang, TT, and Rx-8. The 350z owners over there feel like they have been cheated since the Rx-8 placed 1st, even though it had slower 0-60, 1/4 mile, and track times than the 350z.

Craig your review could shed some light to why the C&D editors still picked the 8 over the 350z.

 

Heh heh, we tried FI once on Craig's with a Greddy kit in the early days. You'll note the Greddy kit isn't for sale on our site . Just not even close to usable on track; overheated in a hurry and never worked very well.

But those were the early days, and things are better now as I understand it. Even so, we've got our own ideas about FI that may or may not ever come to fruition. We currently don't have the time, money, or energy to pursue our own project, but that could change in the future. Just don't hold your breath; I'm still learning how to go fast in the thing with 159ft-lbs. The last thing I need is more power at the moment. Give me a season and that tune may change. . .

And BOOSTD 7 got it just right, I think. It's most certainly not all about the numbers. Reminds me of my youth when the big deal was a Corvette ZR-1 vs. the all-new Acura NSX. Yeah, the ZR-1 would stomp the NSX by the numbers, but that didn't make it the better car.

 

We have a vested interest in NOT posting that on my350Z.com; We're a forum vendor over there too . Not nearly as active as over here, as it should be evident where our automotive desires lie, but regardless the Z is a great car and one I don't want to alienate the owners of .

Really though, everyone has an opinion and ours aren't going to change many feelings over there. To a lot of folks, speed is priority one and if they have a 350Z instead of an RX-8 they chose wisely. If someone tried to argue that a Z provided superior feedback and was a better track car out of the box than an RX-8, they would be wrong. But my telling them that is only going to start a futile fight that will likely accomplish very little.

People get emotional about this stuff, and I have to admit that even I do at times; when I read the C&D article, I couldn't help but feel a bit of pride as an owner. But many people take that stuff do far, and when someone 'disses' their car the spikes come out and it's time to fight. Rational analysis based on actual relevant comparisons (like what we put in this post) are out the window, and it can get ugly. So we'll just keep our comments over here, and even with that be sure the proper disclaimers are in place.

One other thing that we didn't really delve into; the RX-8 is just absurdly more practical than the Z. If you've never really looked at a Z, you may not know that under the hatch you have enough capacity for one fair sized fish and not much else. And of course there are only 2 seats. Yet dimensionally it's quite similar to the RX-8, and is 200-500lbs heavier depending on what model you have. It's the result of Mazda designing and building a sports car chassis from the ground up, vs. Nissan designing a sports car/luxury sedan/SUV chassis to do it all. In which it does very well in all applications, but there is compromise. And I think that very point is why the RX-8 is the superior sports car in our eyes. That it can hold four people and has a real trunk is just icing on the cake.

 

Nice write up.

Thanks DPE, I always enjoy reading your threads.

 

Good writeup, but one thing really stands out to me. I haven't driven a 350Z a lot, but I've driven it enough and have read enough about it to be a little puzzled by the claim that in the 350Z "you're mostly understeering". No offense, but are you sure you guys didn't screw up the handling of the 350Z more than help it with the suspension mods?

 

once again,

nice write phil..

hummm, work vs fun??

well nice write..

beers

 

this is all that matters. it is what makes me keep going back for more, and it makes it all worth it. Anyone of our local track junkies will say the same thing.

one of our guys is actually a Z owner, and after some late night autocross at a recent event in my car, he just kept saying, "this car just turns. it just goes where you tell it, and it just turns".

MAM sounds a lot like our Roebling Road, flat, interconnecting corners, with not a lot of long straights.

Excellent write ups, from both of you.

 

Ike - No offense taken! We've certainly screwed up a chassis or two before, so that's a legitimate concern. But that is not the case with this Z. We've tried three different tire size combinations, a variety of alignments (what little you can adjust), springs to go with the Konis, a front swaybar with a rear bar and a rear bar only, adjusting the bars, and probably some other things as well that I forget. And on a different Z we've done Tein Basics that actually did a decent job of balancing the car out.

Understand it's not that the car is wholly unbalanced. It WILL rotate under trail braking, and will come around under power in lower-speed corners. It's not piggish FWD understeer we're talking about. But the chassis, for whatever reason, just doesn't seem to want to turn like the RX-8 does. And when you get to 11/10ths, it ultimately goes into an understeering state that takes some patience to get out of. This is true no matter what we've tried, though of course we haven't tried it all. With adjustable a-arms up front for adequate negative camber, one might make a big step. But even with that the feel and responsiveness just isn't there relatively speaking.

And that's the thing, this is all relative. If we both had Zs, we both would have had a wonderful time and the track and never known better. It's like many things; if you can't make a direct comparison then and there, it's hard to perceive that one thing is notably better than another. But when you CAN make that comparison, you can see/feel/hear differences that wouldn't be as evident when taken on their own. The Z is a great sports car, no question about it. And holy cow is that VQ motor something else up in 4th gear; it just annihilates the RX-8 at those speeds. And that's its own kind of fun . But as a combination street/track car, for Craig and I anyway, the RX-8 is a whole bunch more fun.

As for the 'fun vs. work' comment Craig implied (if that's what you meant, swoope?), that's a relative thing as well. Compared to the RX-8, the Z feels more like you're herding it around the track, or 'working' to make it do what you want it to do. The RX-8 just does what you want it to do. It goes where it's pointed. You can chuck it into a corner too hot and have a little easily controllable sideways fun working your way out of it. In other words, fun! I'm sure there are cars that are even better, but in the $30k and under range, I'm unsure what that would be.

All that said, I've spent the last 5 years in Subarus, herding them around the track. One of my WRXs was fairly entertaining with about $5k in mods, and the STI would swallow up lesser cars on track with all that power and traction. And I dare say I was having fun for just about every minute of it . But last summer I made the mistake of driving Tom's RX-8 on track (MAM, once again). Yeah, it was slow compared to the STI, but it was a revelation. The car actually turned, the brakes were right there EVERY time, and quite simply the car just worked. Next thing you know, I had an RX-8. . .

 

That would be why I traded my WRX for an Evo rather than an STI. I loved my WRX, at the time it just didn't get any better for the money, and I was sure I would be getting an STI. The STI is a great car and a great track car but it just doesn't have the feel that the Evo does and the steering pales in comparison. I will admit though that the '06 STI, even though they were just small tweaks, feels much better than the '04 model I had driven previously.

Power and laptimes aside, on the track I'd say the RX-8 is to the 350Z what the Evo is to the STI. Both very capable, but the Evo is more of a connected feeling drivers car, while the STI is quite good as well it's just more of a understeery brute when you start directly comparing them. If it were not for the Evo I'd have a hard time saying anything bad about the STI handling wise. The same probably goes for the Z, if I never compared it to the RX-8 I'd probably think much more highly of the Zs driving feel.

 

Great write up! I thoroughly enjoyed reading that. I was almost an STI or Z owner (those were the others I was considering) and was being coaxed by my best friend to buy a Z. (General Manager for a Nissan dealership who drives one as his demo and has for years) Oh and he also has an 05 Altima SE-R which is a beast for FWD.

Anyway... I have been trying to tell him it's not about going fast in a straight line for me and that I would out corner him in his Z any day...

Z are nice and very muscular looking with good aggressive styling and loads of torque and hp. I respect that... but for me to hit a clover leaf at 70+ and throw it into 3rd fast enough to break the rears loose and slide into the corner while slowly gassing it...and be confident in the car while doing it...thats HEAVEN.

 

Doesn't need to be said again but excellent review. I bought the RX-8 because I knew I'd never be the fastest guy at the track but I'd be having a really good time with a purpose built, ground up, sports car. A four door, hardtop Miata if you will.

Somebody always has something better - Lotus, Ferarri, Z-06, etc., and I don't race on the street.

 

cant haul lumber in a Z. you can in a 8.
Great write up guys--!!
Certain things that can be done(and stay na) that can bring those times a little closer--or even beat them --i know!
One thing not mentioned also was with the 8 there is not nearly as much lift throttle oversteer as with a recip engine. this one little thing can make a big difference in the fun factor and the actually driving with traffic beside you. Its not all about driving the line. its about driving the part of the track you are on or need to go to!
I have owned about 35 different cars in my short life and this car, the rx8, is the most driveable. Like a go cart with suspension.
olddragger
Z's dont shoot flames out the back either!
not flaming the Z. It is a great car and I like them. It is just a different car.

 

Wow, that was a great read! Thanks.

Like most owners I tried both cars before I pulled the trigger. While I would like to boast that the 8 is quicker it does not really matter as I will only be at the track a few days a year. What is important to me is that the car be fun.

Thanks again.

 

Great write-up Phil, that's a very honest and infomative post!

 

Best comparison write up on the forum so far. Thanks for the read guys.

 

Ah, this pains me to read...

Last year I sold my 8 for an STI... I love my STI, but i miss the feeling of driving my car, apposed to the car driving me. AWD is king, but it really takes the fun out of things. I miss my 8, and I think i'll buy another in a few years, for a track car, they're just TOO much fun!

 

I remember reading this thread just as I was debating between an RX-8 and other cars (like the 350z).

A year and a bit later, I know Phil and Craig were 100% right in their impressions of the RX-8's handling. I made the right choice.

It's a shame that Phil had to close his shop. It is rare (but not unheard of... *cough BHR* *cough MM*) to have vendors who share the passion of such a low volume car.