Notices
Series I Engine Tuning Forum EMS (Flash Tuning, Interceptor, Piggy Back, Stand Alone)

Good Air/Fuel Targets for Safe NA Horsepower

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Rate Thread
 
Old 03-01-2008 | 10:41 AM
  #1  
lolachampcar's Avatar
Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 344
Likes: 2
Good Air/Fuel Targets for Safe NA Horsepower

Tools are coming available for all to generate their own tuned files. I would like to see work on getting the most power from a NA tune.

I am very comfortable with air/fuel ratios for our race engines (pistons, best power around 13.2 air/fuel gasoline or .9 lambda) but am curious what those who know would have to say about a good NA A/F.

What are cat and engine safe Air/Fuel targets for getting the best power from a NA RX-8?
Old 03-01-2008 | 04:50 PM
  #2  
lolachampcar's Avatar
Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 344
Likes: 2
Does anyone out there have a Racing Beat flash so we can log data and see what Jim M. thinks are good air/fuel values?
Old 03-01-2008 | 09:10 PM
  #3  
olddragger's Avatar
Registered
iTrader: (3)
 
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,828
Likes: 38
From: macon, georgia
You have mine !
Olddragger
Old 03-01-2008 | 09:35 PM
  #4  
Brettus's Avatar
Boosted Kiwi
iTrader: (2)
 
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 20,609
Likes: 1,536
From: Y-cat-o NZ
I have dicked around with anything between 12.5 & 13.5 and got no additional gains anywhere in that range . Take from that what you like .....
Old 03-01-2008 | 09:54 PM
  #5  
MazdaManiac's Avatar
Banned
iTrader: (3)
 
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,386
Likes: 26
From: Under my car
It depends on the Ve of the motor at any particular load point.
Old 03-01-2008 | 10:14 PM
  #6  
lolachampcar's Avatar
Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 344
Likes: 2
Originally Posted by MazdaManiac
It depends on the Ve of the motor at any particular load point.
So, let's get some Ve versus A/F values as a starting point. Jeff, can you start that discussion?
Old 03-01-2008 | 10:16 PM
  #7  
kersh4w's Avatar
Hit & Run Magnet
iTrader: (3)
 
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,690
Likes: 3
From: DC Area
i have a funny feeling he already has.

he might have been talking about turbo applications though.

have you read through all his stickies? he's posted more than i care to know.
Old 03-01-2008 | 10:22 PM
  #8  
lolachampcar's Avatar
Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 344
Likes: 2
I've not done a lot of home work through the threads. I was hoping to use this A/F thread as input to an open source NA tune thread so I was looking for fresh input from people that would also respond to questions.

I'll go looking.
Old 03-01-2008 | 10:30 PM
  #9  
MazdaManiac's Avatar
Banned
iTrader: (3)
 
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,386
Likes: 26
From: Under my car
Yeah, I've pretty much covered all of the bases already.
Old 03-02-2008 | 01:07 AM
  #10  
swoope's Avatar
Zoom-Freakin'-Zoom
iTrader: (5)
 
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 14,602
Likes: 36
From: orlando, fl
mazda star series tunes for .93 lambda. but they have no cat..

timing is the big part, and fuel. NA / less octane tends to make more power.

beers
Old 03-02-2008 | 07:44 AM
  #11  
lolachampcar's Avatar
Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 344
Likes: 2
What about what Jim M says on the Racing Beat site that timing has no effect on power with a NA RX-8? I've not tried any timing work on the dyno (with NA that is) so I have no clue as to if this is true or not. I do think Jim spent a good bit of time on the dyno methodically checking these things.

Has anyone played with timing on NA looking for power?
Old 03-02-2008 | 07:52 AM
  #12  
lolachampcar's Avatar
Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 344
Likes: 2
Originally Posted by swoope
mazda star series tunes for .93 lambda. but they have no cat..

timing is the big part, and fuel. NA / less octane tends to make more power.

beers
I have done a lot of historic racing and it never fails to surprise me just how much people love to use 110 octane plus fuel. I was into bikes before cars and my engine builder of twenty years taught me a lot about quench and combustion chambers (and porting and,,,,). He had learned these lessons by trial and error and had some of the fastest NA 1 mile rolling start bikes in South Florida so I tended to listen to him.

Anyway, higher octane is more resistant to detonation. It also burns much slower. My builder claimed that pump gas produced the most power as it burned so quickly provided you controlled detonation. You could get more power with oxygenated fuels and other fancy stuff but fuel for fuel, less octane seemed to work better. We tried it on my race engines and had one of the quickest 2L sports racers out there. It must have been motor because I am no rock star driver!

The high burn rate of lower octane fuel sounds like it helps rotary engines as well. That surprises me a bit because, unlike motorcycles with very fast piston speeds, the rotor is turning at 1/3rd the shaft speed so the "piston" is not moving so fast. There must be something else going on there.
Old 03-02-2008 | 07:57 AM
  #13  
lolachampcar's Avatar
Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 344
Likes: 2
One more thought.

I licensed my fuel control to a company building rotary engines. I also did some consulting work to EPA certify a single rotor engine (that's another neat subject but probably best left to a different thread). As part of the effort, I bought a combustion analysis system that had us put a pressure tap in the combustion chamber. It let us look at peak combustion pressure versus shaft angle. The company was having some apex seal issues (which now seem to have been fixed) so the data was not too impressive. However, I still have about $6500 worth of combustion analysis hardware/software just sitting in my shop. Perhaps we could instrument an engine up and do some major nerd work. Just a thought.....
Old 03-02-2008 | 02:16 PM
  #14  
TeamRX8's Avatar
Registered
iTrader: (25)
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 26,869
Likes: 2,083
Originally Posted by lolachampcar
Does anyone out there have a Racing Beat flash so we can log data and see what Jim M. thinks are good air/fuel values?
WTF???

Don't come crying here about people stealing your work and then post something like this. Apparently ethical boundaries only apply to everyone else.

MS
Old 03-02-2008 | 02:44 PM
  #15  
jones75254's Avatar
Registered User
iTrader: (2)
 
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,396
Likes: 0
From: Ohio
Ethical? So down the road when people are using AP based maps (or whatever other flash tool maps) on their cars and they want to compare maps and values with other members, that would be unethical? RB's flash is out there. The actual changes they made to the tables to formulate the flash is still theirs. If we want to look at the data the flash produces i dont see anything unethical about that.
Old 03-02-2008 | 02:46 PM
  #16  
TeamRX8's Avatar
Registered
iTrader: (25)
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 26,869
Likes: 2,083
furthermore, why do you keep starting these threads outside the EMS Forum???

could it maybe be ...
Attached Thumbnails Good Air/Fuel Targets for Safe NA Horsepower-attentionhoforce.jpg  

Last edited by TeamRX8; 03-02-2008 at 02:50 PM.
Old 03-02-2008 | 03:25 PM
  #17  
Kane's Avatar
Illudium Q-36 Space Moderator
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,364
Likes: 43
From: PCB
An interesting article from Ben Strader - EFI University
Air/Fuel Ratio Management For Racers, A Three Part Series

When it comes to racing, there is never any shortage of hard work and chores to be done before the next event. Often, race teams are required to travel long distances during the week, prep the car, show up on the weekend ready to run, and then do it all over again the next week. This doesn’t leave much time for experimentation and trying out new concepts. That means most of the time, when racers find something that works okay they tend not to change it, even though there might be a better way. They simply can’t afford to risk missing an event or losing a race. Often times a discussion arises about the best Air to Fuel ratio to use for various tracks and atmospheric conditions. I want to try and address a few of these questions in this series. Here is a list of some common questions asked by racers and tuners:

1) What Air to Fuel Ratio gives the best power?
2) Does the Air to Fuel Ratio that produces the best power change as the altitude my car operates at changes?
3) Does the Air to Fuel Ratio that produces the best power change as the intake air temperature my car operates at changes?

To find answers to these questions I have spent years on the dynamometer testing various engine combinations, talking with other knowledgeable tuners, reading various publications on the subject, and even wrote a book about tuning Electronic Fuel Injected engines, but I found the most convincing answers to these questions in a document written in 1922 by Stanwood Sparrow of the “Bureau of Standards” for the “National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics” (NACA), called NACA Report #189 “Relation of Fuel-Air Ratios to Engine Performance”. In this report, a government agency set out to answer these and many other questions about the effect of Air Fuel Ratios on engine performance over a wide range of parameters, and the evidence proves out many of the answers I am about to present to you for the above questions in this three part series.

PART I

What Air to Fuel Ratio gives the best power? Many folks have tried to shed light on this subject based on single-case observations made in sloppily controlled test environments which show results of all sorts, and yet other, seemingly more knowledgeable sources, (such as the companies trying to sell Air-Fuel ratio meters) are constantly trying to convince us that while they cannot (for reasons of liability) tell us what the magic number is, we cannot possibly hope to achieve maximum engine performance without the help of one of their whiz-bang doo-hickeys!

Well, according to NACA report 189, a wide variety of engines were tested across a large range of Air/Fuel ratios and what they found was basically the following:

“In adjusting the carburetor to obtain maximum power, The following method was employed. First, the mixture was altered until approximately maximum power (for the chosen set of conditions) was obtained. As will be shown later, values of power within 1 percent of maximum are obtained over a wide range of fuel-air ratios. Hence, little difficulty was experienced in finding an Air/Fuel ratio to give approximately maximum power.”

The report goes on to state later that, “From the results to date it is concluded that ordinarily maximum power (at least in so far as aviation engines are concerned) is obtained with gasoline-air ratios of between 0.07 and 0.08 pounds of fuel per pound of air (12.5 to 14.5 pounds of air per pound of fuel).”

What all this means is that basically, if simply making lots of power is your only goal, nearly any Air/Fuel ratio can get you pretty close to the mark.

This corresponds quite closely to what my years’ of engine testing have show as well, and in fact, this is what we have been teaching at EFI University for almost four years, but what I find surprising is the number of supposedly “expert” tuners out there who are still arguing against this point, and pretending that what they do is a special brand of “Magic”.

My experience has been that typically the best engine tuners in the business are the first ones to say: “Ask me anything you like, I have nothing to hide.”

Recently, I spoke with Shane Tecklenburg of FAST Motorsports in Huntington Beach, California, who is widely regarded to be one of the finest engine tuners in the USA, and he had this to say: “Nothing I do is black magic. Everything is based on simple laws of physics that anyone can learn with a little effort, so there is no reason for me not to answer a racer’s question about engine tuning, even if he is a competitor.” I have also spoken to a number of other well known tuners who have had quite the opposite attitude and tried to make it seem as if they knew some special trick or held the golden nugget of knowledge that, if shared with others would seriously jeopardize their standing. Most of the time, when I find a tuner with this attitude, it means they don’t actually know the answers and fear they might reveal this ugly fact if they say too much.

The simple fact is, ten years ago, before the age of $300 wide bands for everyone, nobody even knew what their Air Fuel Ratios were. The rule of thumb was to change the jets one size for every one-thousand feet of elevation, and that was just the way it was. We looked down the tailpipes and at our spark plugs for various color patterns, and even that wasn’t an exact science.

Most racers would have been horrified if they actually saw what the A/F ratios were doing in their engines during a run, but because the engine still performed well, no one cared. What has changed the industry so dramatically in recent years is the advent of the low-cost wide-band Air/Fuel ratio meters. Suddenly, everyone could afford access to this tool to gain priceless insight into their engine’s performance, and then “numbers game” began.

It is not uncommon to go to the racetrack these days and find any number of racers with their laptops plugged into their cars trying to get that last tenth of an A/F point in line. I’ve heard guys say “yesterday she was running a 12.8 A/F ratio, and today it seems to be running about 12.7 and that’s just too rich!” I wonder if either their dyno, or their E.T.’s would support that. If what the NACA report says is true, then I suppose it begs the question, “What is to be gained by agonizing over minute changes in A/F ratios”? Isn’t there some other chassis or tire component that would be better served by spending this time tweaking them instead? What good is ultimate power if it can’t reach the ground?

I’m not suggesting that we abandon this great new technology and throw away our wide-bands just yet. I simply want to help folks get back to the reality of what it is we are trying to accomplish: Getting the maximum performance from the engine… not getting bogged down in the data. Let’s all take a step back, close our eyes, take a deep breath and remember, the only numbers that really matter are not the ones on the wide-band, but the ones that say the letters “E.T.” next to them! Good luck out there folks!

Coming up in Part II: Does the Air to Fuel Ratio that produces the best power change as the altitude that my car operates at changes? Tune in next time to find out!


Written By: Ben Strader
Old 03-02-2008 | 03:30 PM
  #18  
r0tor's Avatar
Registered
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 3,754
Likes: 1
From: PA
it would seem to me that if someone wanted to be serious about offering a flashing tool for the rx-8, they would do this type of research on the dyno themselves...
Old 03-02-2008 | 05:58 PM
  #19  
lolachampcar's Avatar
Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 344
Likes: 2
Originally Posted by TeamRX8
WTF???

Don't come crying here about people stealing your work and then post something like this. Apparently ethical boundaries only apply to everyone else.

MS
My buddy the bag boy with yet another helpful comment.

Logging data to see what someone else has done does not belong in the same sentence as downloading their file and using it on another car.
Old 03-02-2008 | 06:01 PM
  #20  
lolachampcar's Avatar
Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 344
Likes: 2
Originally Posted by r0tor
it would seem to me that if someone wanted to be serious about offering a flashing tool for the rx-8, they would do this type of research on the dyno themselves...
I think you are confusing tools with tuners. I like to play with this stuff and like to learn from people that know (like Ben). It is also helpful to bounce ideas off others that have similar interests.

If you want someone to give you their answers then you belong with a tuner. I prefer to learn, hopefully in the company of those with similar interests.
Old 03-02-2008 | 06:27 PM
  #21  
Spin9k's Avatar
Momentum Keeps Me Going
 
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 5,036
Likes: 4
From: Colorado
Originally Posted by Kane
An interesting article from Ben Strader - EFI University
That folksie talk is all feel good warm sounding, but - I've experienced it with my own car - with our engine NA, noticeable butt dyno gains can be had. How, well, by actually "agonizing over minute changes in A/F ratios", among other embelishments.

Sure in 1922 they had the basics down, the essential basics I would say, things that are profound to understanding combustion. Still the delta between that and producing rotary power still has some room on the table for discussion, it is plainly evident. Maybe not much, maybe only 10-20%, but quantifiable gains under the curve not just peak are the result and provide satisfaction relative to the untuned state.

Canzoomer started the work, started on the tuning path to NA gain, if it were not possible, way too many dillusional people are even now toiling away for no reason to allow tuning NA.

Last edited by Spin9k; 03-03-2008 at 10:43 AM.
Old 03-03-2008 | 03:13 AM
  #22  
Brettus's Avatar
Boosted Kiwi
iTrader: (2)
 
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 20,609
Likes: 1,536
From: Y-cat-o NZ
Originally Posted by Kane
An interesting article from Ben Strader - EFI University
After a lot of unproductive testing I came to the same conclusion ......
Old 03-03-2008 | 07:55 AM
  #23  
lolachampcar's Avatar
Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 344
Likes: 2
With respect to mixture, here are my very limited observations-

Mixture changes from .73 to .82 lambda make a very big difference on supercharged RX-8s. I have seen it first hand on the dyno time after time. This is a reproducible observation.

Mixture changes from .74 to .89 on a Yamaha Raptor "woke it up" and made a very noticeable difference in rider experience. I did this time and again with my OEM replacement fuel control. I did not dyno this element (we did dyno the pipe replacement) but rider after rider confirmed the change.

NaarLeven's car did pick up horsepower with NOTHING but a mixture change.

Jim M at Racing Beat seems to think leaning an overly rich RX-8 produces power for him as well.

As I said above, I can toss in some dyno time for testing and we can document the results here step by step.... Let's go find out for ourselves.
Old 03-03-2008 | 09:31 AM
  #24  
Brettus's Avatar
Boosted Kiwi
iTrader: (2)
 
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 20,609
Likes: 1,536
From: Y-cat-o NZ
we know that there are gains to be had leaning out the mixture from the OEM setting of around 11:1 to around 13:1 -that is well documented on this site . About 10hp is gained by doing this alone.
What the post from Kane says is that fine tuning your 13:1 does not yeild anything extra . As long you are within a certain range it matters very little .
The following users liked this post:
exportsodas (05-30-2023)
Old 03-03-2008 | 09:47 AM
  #25  
Kane's Avatar
Illudium Q-36 Space Moderator
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,364
Likes: 43
From: PCB
Yep, Brettus interpreted correctly.

12:1 vs 14:1 is a big deal; 12:1 vs 12.3:1; not so much...
The following users liked this post:
exportsodas (05-30-2023)


You have already rated this thread Rating: Thread Rating: 0 votes,  average.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:20 AM.