Flooding
10-20-2003, 11:49 AM
#26
_________________
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cambridge - UK
Posts: 1,384
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by ChrisW
Looks like it is still a problem with the Renesis then
.
Looks like it is still a problem with the Renesis then
.
10-20-2003, 01:58 PM
#27
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Somerset, England
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
my previous Rx 7 TurboII had 11000 miles on it and was running perfectly when i sold it. I would still expect it to be running today. All my Rxs had done in excess of 100,000 Miles on original engines WITHOUT any maintenance issues.... and remember, theres NO Valves, Cam Belts etc to worry about.
Golden rule, as with any vehicle, let it warm up before exploring the upper rev bands. In my case i keep revs between 2-3000 until gauge has been in normal postion for at least a few minutes. Incidently, this i apply to any vehicle i drive. Alfas are/where especially sensitive to warm ups!.
Golden rule, as with any vehicle, let it warm up before exploring the upper rev bands. In my case i keep revs between 2-3000 until gauge has been in normal postion for at least a few minutes. Incidently, this i apply to any vehicle i drive. Alfas are/where especially sensitive to warm ups!.
10-21-2003, 02:13 AM
#28
Greek Power
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Greece
Posts: 439
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flooding was/is a main problem with the FBs, the S4 FCs, and -very rarely- the S5 FCs (latest version of FC). I have heard of VERY few FDs that have been flooded. This is a problem with the ECU and the injectors "dripping" fuel after starting up the engine and shutting it off while still cold and in the warm-up phase of the ECU program and the thermowax position. (if you dont understand what I've just said, I can explain in more details )
This is NOT a problem only for RX7s or rotaries. This can happen to ANY car, if there isnt a failsafe built-in in the ECU or the mechanism for the warm-up cycle. So, the fact that it happens with RX8s doesnt mean all that much.......
Anyway, the way to unflood a rotary is pretty easy: once you know you've flooded the engine, you can try the "gas-pedal-to-the-metal" while cranking (which works only 20-30% of the time), or you can go for the "real" fix. Pop hood, remove EFI fuse, take off lower spark plugs and plus (if you have the proper ratchet, and I do mean PROPER ), and crank engine for 10 seconds. That should get rid of the fuel in the engine. If the plugs are fouled, clean them/burn them with a lighter, and place everything back. Crank up the engine, and it should start. However, if the plugs are totally fouled (i.e short-circuited) you have no other choice but to call for road assistance.
The above has happened to me once, due to a stuck AFM. Flooded the engine REALLY good :o Plugs were just little pieces of metal and ceramic. Tried unflooding, tried cleaning the plugs, nothing. For a moment I thought that I may have actually popped the engine. However doing the manual/ghetto compression test, I saw that the engine did still have good compression. So, 4 spark plugs later, engine was purring like a cat......
)This is NOT a problem only for RX7s or rotaries. This can happen to ANY car, if there isnt a failsafe built-in in the ECU or the mechanism for the warm-up cycle. So, the fact that it happens with RX8s doesnt mean all that much.......
Anyway, the way to unflood a rotary is pretty easy: once you know you've flooded the engine, you can try the "gas-pedal-to-the-metal" while cranking (which works only 20-30% of the time), or you can go for the "real" fix. Pop hood, remove EFI fuse, take off lower spark plugs and plus (if you have the proper ratchet, and I do mean PROPER
), and crank engine for 10 seconds. That should get rid of the fuel in the engine. If the plugs are fouled, clean them/burn them with a lighter, and place everything back. Crank up the engine, and it should start. However, if the plugs are totally fouled (i.e short-circuited) you have no other choice but to call for road assistance.The above has happened to me once, due to a stuck AFM. Flooded the engine REALLY good :o Plugs were just little pieces of metal and ceramic. Tried unflooding, tried cleaning the plugs, nothing. For a moment I thought that I may have actually popped the engine. However doing the manual/ghetto compression test, I saw that the engine did still have good compression. So, 4 spark plugs later, engine was purring like a cat......
10-21-2003, 06:05 AM
#29
Registered User
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Herts - UK
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by The Ace
This is NOT a problem only for RX7s or rotaries. This can happen to ANY car, if there isnt a failsafe built-in in the ECU or the mechanism for the warm-up cycle. So, the fact that it happens with RX8s doesnt mean all that much.......
This is NOT a problem only for RX7s or rotaries. This can happen to ANY car, if there isnt a failsafe built-in in the ECU or the mechanism for the warm-up cycle. So, the fact that it happens with RX8s doesnt mean all that much.......
The number of reports we have of people in the US flooding their RX-8s, and the fact there is a specific section about this in the user manual (the "short trip driving procedure") seems to indicate that this is a much bigger issue than with most other cars.
10-21-2003, 06:48 AM
#31
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Bsingstoke
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't know, it seems the more I read about this engine the less I like. I mean, in this day and age, having to remove fuses or pull plugs to unflood it. That's almost pre-historic.
Apparently these engine still have a long way to go before they're as useable as the piston engine. All they've really got going for them at the moment is size and number of moving parts. Good though those things are, in all honesty I think the average driver would put those well down his/her list of desirable features.
C.
Apparently these engine still have a long way to go before they're as useable as the piston engine. All they've really got going for them at the moment is size and number of moving parts. Good though those things are, in all honesty I think the average driver would put those well down his/her list of desirable features.
C.
10-21-2003, 06:56 AM
#32
Originally posted by ep3
I don't know, it seems the more I read about this engine the less I like. I mean, in this day and age, having to remove fuses or pull plugs to unflood it. That's almost pre-historic.
Apparently these engine still have a long way to go before they're as useable as the piston engine. All they've really got going for them at the moment is size and number of moving parts. Good though those things are, in all honesty I think the average driver would put those well down his/her list of desirable features.
C.
I don't know, it seems the more I read about this engine the less I like. I mean, in this day and age, having to remove fuses or pull plugs to unflood it. That's almost pre-historic.
Apparently these engine still have a long way to go before they're as useable as the piston engine. All they've really got going for them at the moment is size and number of moving parts. Good though those things are, in all honesty I think the average driver would put those well down his/her list of desirable features.
C.
As to being "pre-historic" yeah, thats close. Piston engine was invented a long time ago (100+ years) and since day 1 has had a lot of R&D done on it, every day thres proabbly 1000's of engineers working on small advancments on piston engines all over the planet.
The rotary has had a minute fraction of this development work. Mazda has had anywhere from 80 to 2 people working on wankels. They have benifited from modern production and materials/technology but are way behind pistons in terms of development. I'd say late 70's early 80's equivelant.
And despite that there still very competative and won international engine of the year award. Mechanicaly, theoreticaly (and by some perameters reality) there superior to pistons. I like smart engineering solutions, and the wankel engine design is an amazing change over pistons, its "how it should be" IMO. Getting it to work in practice isnt always easy.
10-21-2003, 07:41 AM
#33
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Bsingstoke
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rob,
Wouldn't agree with you on "high power" being a trait of rotaries over pistons necessarily. You can't really compare the power of rotors versus pistons based on enigne size because the displacements are used very differently. If you compared power (or energy really) per litre of fuel used (which is independent of displacement) then I'm sure you'd probably find pistons winning again (discuss).
I agree with the rest of your argument (sort of). However, what I do object to is that the average man in the street could easily be won over by (forgive me) "rotary hype" without being presented with real facts. To me it seems as though Mazda are using a relatively gullible public to act as a test bed for their technology. Sort of "...let see if we can get them to buy a rotary, then we'll actually develop it properly...", or, maybe it was a case of "...we've invested so much money in this engine there's no way we're gonna ditch it no matter how gopod/bad it is..."
Maybe that's over cynical, but you get my point...if you're gonna do it do it right or don't do it at all.
C.
Wouldn't agree with you on "high power" being a trait of rotaries over pistons necessarily. You can't really compare the power of rotors versus pistons based on enigne size because the displacements are used very differently. If you compared power (or energy really) per litre of fuel used (which is independent of displacement) then I'm sure you'd probably find pistons winning again (discuss).
I agree with the rest of your argument (sort of). However, what I do object to is that the average man in the street could easily be won over by (forgive me) "rotary hype" without being presented with real facts. To me it seems as though Mazda are using a relatively gullible public to act as a test bed for their technology. Sort of "...let see if we can get them to buy a rotary, then we'll actually develop it properly...", or, maybe it was a case of "...we've invested so much money in this engine there's no way we're gonna ditch it no matter how gopod/bad it is..."
Maybe that's over cynical, but you get my point...if you're gonna do it do it right or don't do it at all.
C.
10-21-2003, 07:54 AM
#34
They are doing it right. What are they supposed to do, never sell a rotary because its always behind pistons from a research point of view?
You cant develop without funds, you think piston engines arent a testbeds for tech? this engine has been tested in mazdas research labs as much as any piston engine, but thats never going to replace 1000000's of man hours of research.
As to high power, I'm talking power to engine size. nothing competes there (NA anyhow).
You cant develop without funds, you think piston engines arent a testbeds for tech? this engine has been tested in mazdas research labs as much as any piston engine, but thats never going to replace 1000000's of man hours of research.
As to high power, I'm talking power to engine size. nothing competes there (NA anyhow).
10-21-2003, 10:05 AM
#35
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Bsingstoke
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rob,
OK power to engine volume (for standard production casrs), rotors win over pistons.
But if you're gonna compete with pistons then you either have to offer something radically different in terms of the everyday driving experince (it's not, it's just a flat torque high rpm engine with a slightly diferent engine note and smaller flywheel effect, same as an alloy vtec), or, you've got to beat the piston at it's own game (which it hasn't in almost every way but size and number of parts).
C.
OK power to engine volume (for standard production casrs), rotors win over pistons.
But if you're gonna compete with pistons then you either have to offer something radically different in terms of the everyday driving experince (it's not, it's just a flat torque high rpm engine with a slightly diferent engine note and smaller flywheel effect, same as an alloy vtec), or, you've got to beat the piston at it's own game (which it hasn't in almost every way but size and number of parts).
C.
10-21-2003, 11:52 AM
#36
Registered User
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Herts - UK
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by ep3
But if you're gonna compete with pistons then you either have to offer something radically different in terms of the everyday driving experince (it's not, it's just a flat torque high rpm engine with a slightly diferent engine note and smaller flywheel effect, same as an alloy vtec)
But if you're gonna compete with pistons then you either have to offer something radically different in terms of the everyday driving experince (it's not, it's just a flat torque high rpm engine with a slightly diferent engine note and smaller flywheel effect, same as an alloy vtec)
10-21-2003, 02:01 PM
#37
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The comparison with the piston engines is all very interesting. Still, sorry for writing about the original thread here....!
A cousin of mine is a researcher in the field of vehicle emissions. From what I undersatnd, under the forthcoming emissions regulations (Euro 4), an engine must reach its quoted/allowed emissions figures within less than a minute (20 secs I think). Please correct me if I am worng
The engine, cataliser, etc, are all designed to do their clean-up act under high temperatures, and so need to be warmed up PDQ after the engine starts. This is achieved by flooding the engine, essentially causing burning flames to spread around the inside of engine and the exhaust system.
A cousin of mine is a researcher in the field of vehicle emissions. From what I undersatnd, under the forthcoming emissions regulations (Euro 4), an engine must reach its quoted/allowed emissions figures within less than a minute (20 secs I think). Please correct me if I am worng
The engine, cataliser, etc, are all designed to do their clean-up act under high temperatures, and so need to be warmed up PDQ after the engine starts. This is achieved by flooding the engine, essentially causing burning flames to spread around the inside of engine and the exhaust system.
10-21-2003, 03:16 PM
#38
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Somerset, England
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ep3... sonds like u have not driven a rotary. There IS NO WAY i would compare our Vtech to our FD Rotary, or even the FC Rx7 TII. The Vtech feels rough, clunky and kinda agricultural.
10-22-2003, 02:16 AM
#39
Greek Power
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Greece
Posts: 439
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Comparing the rotary to a VTEC engine is not so crazy. They both have similar power output graphs (only for HP, rotary has much more smoother torque curve), and they both shine at high revs, where ALL other engines have stopped working
However, the way these engines achieve this performance is totally different, and of course they are also completely different engines to begin with.....However, I dont think a VTEC is "agricultural", if anything its a very nice sounding engine. Of course, the rotary is in every case much more smooth and with a very unique sound......
As for the emissions stuff, thats what the pre-cat is there for. We may finally see the pre-cat being in actual use, because up until now it was only an obstruction......
However, the way these engines achieve this performance is totally different, and of course they are also completely different engines to begin with.....However, I dont think a VTEC is "agricultural", if anything its a very nice sounding engine. Of course, the rotary is in every case much more smooth and with a very unique sound......
As for the emissions stuff, thats what the pre-cat is there for. We may finally see the pre-cat being in actual use, because up until now it was only an obstruction......
11-05-2003, 03:52 AM
#40
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: SURREY
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good news story regards my blown RX-7!
Upon inspection both of the rotors/housings were shot resulting in turbos to also be ruined. (Rare for both rotors to go apparentley).
The warranty company have come up trumps, my dealership had instruction yesterday to go ahead with a reconditioned engine, new turbos and a new wiring harness (they will also fit a new clutch while it's out at my expense).
Relieved and happy!
Upon inspection both of the rotors/housings were shot resulting in turbos to also be ruined. (Rare for both rotors to go apparentley).
The warranty company have come up trumps, my dealership had instruction yesterday to go ahead with a reconditioned engine, new turbos and a new wiring harness (they will also fit a new clutch while it's out at my expense).
Relieved and happy!
11-09-2003, 10:03 PM
#41
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 315
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Cyclone V8 has a higher power-to-size ratio than a tuned Renesis.
http://www.cyclonepowerltd.co.uk
http://www.cyclonepowerltd.co.uk
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Danield97
Series I Trouble Shooting
10
10-10-2015 05:58 PM
