Torque
08-07-2003, 03:15 AM
#26
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As one of the few with rotary engine experience we are going to trust you on this as well as your arguement for torque not being a problem although to me it seems either torque or MPG will be a the downside.
rael.
rael.
08-07-2003, 03:22 AM
#27
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MPG - Yep , they are thirsty.
That is the only downside of rotary combustion.
Still , the Yank figures are promising -
My old RX7 used to struggle to get 20mpg , and looking at americans , it looks like the RX8 will do 25-28 on the sort of journeys I do these days (all M1).
rael - you will learn to love it , I am pretty sure.
You seem to have had some interesting motors , and this is another one to experience. If it does not work out , you can always move back of forced-induction and big torque.
That is the only downside of rotary combustion.
Still , the Yank figures are promising -
My old RX7 used to struggle to get 20mpg , and looking at americans , it looks like the RX8 will do 25-28 on the sort of journeys I do these days (all M1).
rael - you will learn to love it , I am pretty sure.
You seem to have had some interesting motors , and this is another one to experience. If it does not work out , you can always move back of forced-induction and big torque.
08-07-2003, 03:23 AM
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Does'nt relaxed, lazy, accessible torque mean better MPG ? I think so, but I'm not really buying the 8 for its MPG, I'm buying it so I can have fun and still have modocome of practicality.
AnilS.
AnilS.
08-07-2003, 03:49 AM
#29
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Originally posted by sixspeed
I'm still not sure of the point though. Don't people look at their rev-counters then? Surely the fact that the "redline" isn't until 9000rpm mean that people will push on until or near that point?
If someone is going to hit 6000rpm in a "normal" car, then they're surely the sort of person that does look at what rev's they're doing, so surely they'd just seem the dial still has more to go and keep going.
Maybe it's my mentality, or the way I drive, but I don't see how if a rev limit is there, clear to see, that people who would use all the rev range of a "normal" car will not do the same in the RX8?
-andy-
I'm still not sure of the point though. Don't people look at their rev-counters then? Surely the fact that the "redline" isn't until 9000rpm mean that people will push on until or near that point?
If someone is going to hit 6000rpm in a "normal" car, then they're surely the sort of person that does look at what rev's they're doing, so surely they'd just seem the dial still has more to go and keep going.
Maybe it's my mentality, or the way I drive, but I don't see how if a rev limit is there, clear to see, that people who would use all the rev range of a "normal" car will not do the same in the RX8?
-andy-
Anyway, what you are NOT getting, and dont understand, is that most people couldnt care less where the fuel cut-off is, or where is the redline, and they probably wont ever hear the redline buzzer. Most of the people who will be interested in the RX8 (mostly in US), will expect the car to pull strongly in the same RPMs that they are used to (americans are used to 1500-3000, germans to 2000-4000 RPMs). These people (which are, I repeat, the majority) wouldnt even consider pushing the engine near its redline. And thats why they will never "discover" the power of the rotary.
Like all of you, when I wanted to drive fast, the redline buzzer was my friend ! :D Even in the TII, which has enough torque/HP down low (not *so* low though
), I regularly shifted at 7500 or more. But lets face it: we are the minority.And I'm still impressed at all those people posting and saying that they were getting 20 and 25 mpg out of an FD. Damn!!! At what speeds were you driving guys ? I couldnt get more than 15mpg out of my TII even if I literally put eggs under the gas pedal (I would just end up with a nice omelette between the pedals :D)
08-07-2003, 05:06 AM
#30
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Ok, I see what you are saying. But these same people will have the same problem in a lot of modern japanese vehicles, with their VTEC engines, and power-peaks high in the rev-range... But people are still buying them. I see plenty of S2000s, Civic Type Rs etc around.
If people don't want to rev the car, then I guess it's not for them. Just like the S2000 wouldn't be for them (I guess they'd choose the Boxster or SLK), or the Civic Type R (get a Golf or Clio 172) etc...
This isn't the only car in the world that suffers from "lack of torque".
Personally, if a few people are put off, then thats fine. I don't want to head out of the drive and pass an RX-8 at every corner. Then it'll just be another TT... :D
-andy-
If people don't want to rev the car, then I guess it's not for them. Just like the S2000 wouldn't be for them (I guess they'd choose the Boxster or SLK), or the Civic Type R (get a Golf or Clio 172) etc...
This isn't the only car in the world that suffers from "lack of torque".
Personally, if a few people are put off, then thats fine. I don't want to head out of the drive and pass an RX-8 at every corner. Then it'll just be another TT... :D
-andy-
08-07-2003, 05:39 AM
#31
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Originally posted by sixspeed
Ok, I see what you are saying. But these same people will have the same problem in a lot of modern japanese vehicles, with their VTEC engines, and power-peaks high in the rev-range... But people are still buying them. I see plenty of S2000s, Civic Type Rs etc around.
If people don't want to rev the car, then I guess it's not for them. Just like the S2000 wouldn't be for them (I guess they'd choose the Boxster or SLK), or the Civic Type R (get a Golf or Clio 172) etc...
This isn't the only car in the world that suffers from "lack of torque".
Personally, if a few people are put off, then thats fine. I don't want to head out of the drive and pass an RX-8 at every corner. Then it'll just be another TT... :D
-andy-
Ok, I see what you are saying. But these same people will have the same problem in a lot of modern japanese vehicles, with their VTEC engines, and power-peaks high in the rev-range... But people are still buying them. I see plenty of S2000s, Civic Type Rs etc around.
If people don't want to rev the car, then I guess it's not for them. Just like the S2000 wouldn't be for them (I guess they'd choose the Boxster or SLK), or the Civic Type R (get a Golf or Clio 172) etc...
This isn't the only car in the world that suffers from "lack of torque".
Personally, if a few people are put off, then thats fine. I don't want to head out of the drive and pass an RX-8 at every corner. Then it'll just be another TT... :D
-andy-
Anyway, since the car is already on the market, we can only wait and see if this "low torque" thing has any effects on the numbers......maybe after people have started to get familiar with the wankel, the sales will increase, which will mean good things for Mazda, and probably bring the new RX7 one step closer to actually being produced :D
08-07-2003, 06:34 AM
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Sadly , bit like 'Lancia' and 'Rust' , whenever people ask me about the rotary engine , they usually say "Oh , dont they have real problems with tips of the rotors or something?"
That is the primary thought in most peoples head despite the problem being cured about 25 years ago ! ! !
True...
That is the primary thought in most peoples head despite the problem being cured about 25 years ago ! ! !
True...
08-07-2003, 06:54 AM
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I think the car will have a wide apeal once it is out there, and a number of people will by the car without even knowing/understanding it has a rotary engine.
To some people as long as they like the look and price, it has a 3 year warranty so what does it matter what is under the bonnet?
To some people as long as they like the look and price, it has a 3 year warranty so what does it matter what is under the bonnet?
08-07-2003, 07:34 AM
#34
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Originally posted by morganrogers
Sadly , bit like 'Lancia' and 'Rust' , whenever people ask me about the rotary engine , they usually say "Oh , dont they have real problems with tips of the rotors or something?"
That is the primary thought in most peoples head despite the problem being cured about 25 years ago ! ! !
True...
Sadly , bit like 'Lancia' and 'Rust' , whenever people ask me about the rotary engine , they usually say "Oh , dont they have real problems with tips of the rotors or something?"
That is the primary thought in most peoples head despite the problem being cured about 25 years ago ! ! !
True...
This of course means "rebuild". On a piston engine, this usually means just a new head gasket, a new head, or -worst case scenario- a new piston. HUGE difference there........know what I mean ?
08-08-2003, 04:12 PM
#35
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Re: Torque,
As an owner of a 350Z a "Torque Monster" and an RX-8 a "Torqueless Wonder" I have to say that these reviews are seriously overstating the differences. They feel like they have nearly the same power when driving around town. If you are a racecar driver, or you compete then you have a different set of needs. But I just drive my car (albeit a little faster and harder than average)
Today, for the third time, I chirped the wheels popping into second on the 8. That's more than good enough for me.
As an owner of a 350Z a "Torque Monster" and an RX-8 a "Torqueless Wonder" I have to say that these reviews are seriously overstating the differences. They feel like they have nearly the same power when driving around town. If you are a racecar driver, or you compete then you have a different set of needs. But I just drive my car (albeit a little faster and harder than average)
Today, for the third time, I chirped the wheels popping into second on the 8. That's more than good enough for me.
08-08-2003, 04:13 PM
#36
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Originally posted by Cylo
Re: Torque,
As an owner of a 350Z a "Torque Monster" and an RX-8 a "Torqueless Wonder" I have to say that these reviews are seriously overstating the differences. They feel like they have nearly the same power when driving around town. If you are a racecar driver, or you compete then you have a different set of needs. But I just drive my car (albeit a little faster and harder than average)
Today, for the third time, I chirped the wheels popping into second on the 8. That's more than good enough for me.
Re: Torque,
As an owner of a 350Z a "Torque Monster" and an RX-8 a "Torqueless Wonder" I have to say that these reviews are seriously overstating the differences. They feel like they have nearly the same power when driving around town. If you are a racecar driver, or you compete then you have a different set of needs. But I just drive my car (albeit a little faster and harder than average)
Today, for the third time, I chirped the wheels popping into second on the 8. That's more than good enough for me.
08-11-2003, 02:23 AM
#39
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Cylo - You may be in the perfect position as owners of both to settle this 'torque' issue. Could please add to your earlier comment to clarify to us who fear the torque issue that there really is not problem (or otherwise).
Also, does the car need to be at high revs to get the best out of it or is it acceptable in normal mode.
rael
Also, does the car need to be at high revs to get the best out of it or is it acceptable in normal mode.
rael
08-13-2003, 12:37 PM
#40
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Well, the driving feel on the 350ZX is really really touchy on launches when cruising around town, we always seem to over accelerate/underclutch it when launching. You can't just let it pull you. This can be attributed to the extremely steep 1st gear.
The RX-8 takes off really smooth and easy. The RX-8 is really easy to drive. You can at some slow speeds let the rpms lag and it'll pull the car not to slow and not too fast for traffic.
When accelerating in the Z you have to try harder to be in the right gear at the right time, but when you are it takes off really good.
The RX-8 really takes off in any gear @ over 4K rpm. That leaves you with a lot of room to drive still. Pick and choose year gear for the right acceleration and you are rewarded.
The Z sounds mean and ruff, and the 8 sounds dainty and swirley. But they both feel the same getting on the highway and flooring it.
The RX-8 takes off really smooth and easy. The RX-8 is really easy to drive. You can at some slow speeds let the rpms lag and it'll pull the car not to slow and not too fast for traffic.
When accelerating in the Z you have to try harder to be in the right gear at the right time, but when you are it takes off really good.
The RX-8 really takes off in any gear @ over 4K rpm. That leaves you with a lot of room to drive still. Pick and choose year gear for the right acceleration and you are rewarded.
The Z sounds mean and ruff, and the 8 sounds dainty and swirley. But they both feel the same getting on the highway and flooring it.
08-13-2003, 07:49 PM
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Wow thats intersting.......
I thought that the 8 had the z on handeling and the z had the 8 majorly in straight line power.....
Actually i still think this...... but your experience is making me think a little more now.
Ahh yes and another question since you have the Z as well! I have heard about the Zs always complain about their fourth gear. Why?
What is the deal with gear 4?!
Is this is it a very long gear?
Do you fall out of your powerband?
I visit the Z boards pretty regularly and try to learn about different types of cars. So id love any type of info you might have on this.
Thanks!
I thought that the 8 had the z on handeling and the z had the 8 majorly in straight line power.....
Actually i still think this...... but your experience is making me think a little more now.
Ahh yes and another question since you have the Z as well! I have heard about the Zs always complain about their fourth gear. Why?
What is the deal with gear 4?!
Is this is it a very long gear?
Do you fall out of your powerband?
I visit the Z boards pretty regularly and try to learn about different types of cars. So id love any type of info you might have on this.
Thanks!
08-17-2003, 08:18 AM
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For those of you who haven't had a sports car before (like me); I wouldn't worry about the torque issue. I have a 6-yr old Mazda Xedos which has 144BHP and 172Nm of torque. I've recently been trying to get used to driving it once again at high enough revs and using the gearbox hard to get the most out of it so that I'm ready for the RX-8.
It's amazing how getting yourself in the right gear, and using plenty of revs, can have you rocketing past people in no time. Imagine that with 23% more torque (and significantly more than that most of the time because of the flat torque curve) and 60% more power
I for one am not going to worry too much about the figures.
It's amazing how getting yourself in the right gear, and using plenty of revs, can have you rocketing past people in no time. Imagine that with 23% more torque (and significantly more than that most of the time because of the flat torque curve) and 60% more power
I for one am not going to worry too much about the figures.
08-17-2003, 05:12 PM
#43
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My FTO has less torque than the RX8 (about 147 pound foot, versus approx 159) and it revs to 8000 rpm before the redline. (mitsubishi mivec - a bit like VTEC).
I find it no problem to drive, but a bit lacking in torque below 3000 rpm. However, the torque curve of the FTO is not as smooth as the rotary one, so I don't anticipate this minor problem on the RX8. If I find the FTO easy, and have gotten used to the high revs, then the RX8 should be a breeze. It's what we get used to. And yes, I love the high revving, it's so much more fun than cars limited to 6-7000 rpm.
STU
I find it no problem to drive, but a bit lacking in torque below 3000 rpm. However, the torque curve of the FTO is not as smooth as the rotary one, so I don't anticipate this minor problem on the RX8. If I find the FTO easy, and have gotten used to the high revs, then the RX8 should be a breeze. It's what we get used to. And yes, I love the high revving, it's so much more fun than cars limited to 6-7000 rpm.
STU
08-18-2003, 10:19 AM
#44
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Enough of this Torque issue, if people want torque buy a Audi RS6 (413 lb/ft).
If you want a car to really "drive" stick with the RX-8 (and save £36,000 in the process)
IMHO anyway
Chris
If you want a car to really "drive" stick with the RX-8 (and save £36,000 in the process)
IMHO anyway
Chris
08-18-2003, 11:19 AM
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Im hoping torque will not be a problem. My current car has over 60% more torque than the RX8 so Im expecting it to feel "slower", but Im perfectly happy to use the revs to get the peak power
Im more concerned to be honest, about the lack of power threads in the main forums. If we have the same alleged lack of bhp this could be more serious.
Judging by the current mag reviews though they all seem to love the car (Autocar Excepted), so Im hoping its not an issue.
Im more concerned to be honest, about the lack of power threads in the main forums. If we have the same alleged lack of bhp this could be more serious.
Judging by the current mag reviews though they all seem to love the car (Autocar Excepted), so Im hoping its not an issue.
08-18-2003, 02:15 PM
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I can understand issues / discussions concerning the torque (think I've learnt a bith there!!) but CANNOT understand the issue of using the whole rev range???!!!!
I was a happy RX7 owner until the kids came along & I "volunteered" to sell the car for something more "functional".
But before I bought the 7 new nothing about the rotary engine. That all changed about 60 seconds into my inaugural test drive when the engine just kept going until this thing bleeped at me!!!!
"Fantastic I'll have it"
I can't believe that people would be stupid enough to drive it "like I drove my last car". If this was still the case we'd all be doubling the clutch, flapping our arms out of the window before turning and wondering where the man with the red flag had gone!!!!
I was a happy RX7 owner until the kids came along & I "volunteered" to sell the car for something more "functional".
But before I bought the 7 new nothing about the rotary engine. That all changed about 60 seconds into my inaugural test drive when the engine just kept going until this thing bleeped at me!!!!
"Fantastic I'll have it"
I can't believe that people would be stupid enough to drive it "like I drove my last car". If this was still the case we'd all be doubling the clutch, flapping our arms out of the window before turning and wondering where the man with the red flag had gone!!!!
08-19-2003, 02:46 AM
#47
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Originally posted by rich606
I can understand issues / discussions concerning the torque (think I've learnt a bith there!!) but CANNOT understand the issue of using the whole rev range???!!!!
I was a happy RX7 owner until the kids came along & I "volunteered" to sell the car for something more "functional".
But before I bought the 7 new nothing about the rotary engine. That all changed about 60 seconds into my inaugural test drive when the engine just kept going until this thing bleeped at me!!!!
"Fantastic I'll have it"
I can't believe that people would be stupid enough to drive it "like I drove my last car". If this was still the case we'd all be doubling the clutch, flapping our arms out of the window before turning and wondering where the man with the red flag had gone!!!!
I can understand issues / discussions concerning the torque (think I've learnt a bith there!!) but CANNOT understand the issue of using the whole rev range???!!!!
I was a happy RX7 owner until the kids came along & I "volunteered" to sell the car for something more "functional".
But before I bought the 7 new nothing about the rotary engine. That all changed about 60 seconds into my inaugural test drive when the engine just kept going until this thing bleeped at me!!!!
"Fantastic I'll have it"
I can't believe that people would be stupid enough to drive it "like I drove my last car". If this was still the case we'd all be doubling the clutch, flapping our arms out of the window before turning and wondering where the man with the red flag had gone!!!!
And its not that rotaries are THAT common.......
08-19-2003, 12:36 PM
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Yeah but they only think that due to the cars that they drive.
If they went out in a rotary surely they would notice the big dially thing that goes all the way up to 9000???
If they went out in a rotary surely they would notice the big dially thing that goes all the way up to 9000???
08-20-2003, 02:54 AM
#49
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Originally posted by rich606
Yeah but they only think that due to the cars that they drive.
If they went out in a rotary surely they would notice the big dially thing that goes all the way up to 9000???
Yeah but they only think that due to the cars that they drive.
If they went out in a rotary surely they would notice the big dially thing that goes all the way up to 9000???
I can understand how this might be difficult for some of you to visualize, but it does happen (I have seen it numerous times with VTECs and rotaries, so I know
), so try to spread the knowledge......
04-18-2004, 01:40 AM
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Does anyone know why the M/T has 40 more horse power than the automatic. Is it because of a computer chip or is it actually a beefed up engien? And BTW once you add a turbo to the automatic you should see an excellent increase in power (obviously) but it wil be way more respectable..