**INTERESTING** EcoMotors - not a rotary but at least its valvless
09-14-2010, 04:17 PM
#1
**INTERESTING** EcoMotors - not a rotary but at least its valvless
Hey guys check out what I found the today. http://www.ecomotors.com/videos/intr...%A2-powertrain
They are promising 100+mpg from a 5 seater car and the specs are ridiculous (http://www.ecomotors.com/engine-design) ... its like a hybrid of a 2 stroke and a boxer without a vavletrain and an electronic driven turbocharger
They are promising 100+mpg from a 5 seater car and the specs are ridiculous (http://www.ecomotors.com/engine-design) ... its like a hybrid of a 2 stroke and a boxer without a vavletrain and an electronic driven turbocharger
09-14-2010, 04:53 PM
#2
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TTAC did a couple of articles on this engine a little while back...
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/ins...ciency-engine/
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/ins...th-don-runkle/
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/ins...ciency-engine/
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/ins...th-don-runkle/
09-14-2010, 05:06 PM
#3
Cool article ... will have to read later ... here is a bit that I wrote for a class forum regarding these engines with my personal predictions based on the info provided on the website ... I feel like they definitely need a gasoline model to get accepted in the US
(the class has nothing to do with engines ... it is more of a current even in the Industrial Engineering world .. the title is ORGNZATNL PLANNG&CONTROL ... its about how big corportations work and where Industrial Engineers come in ... I am an Informational and systems engineer ... I reposted it on here to get some feedback regarding my predictions and cause I included some other interesting articles
Skip the top part ... its all about weight affecting efficiency BS ... you should already be aware...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Engine efficiency has been improving by leaps and bounds over the past couple decades. However, our vehicle MPG has barely improved . Why is this?
Weight. As our cars get more clean, user friendly, and safe, they start to weigh more and more. 20 years ago, a 3,000 pound car was just about average. Today, the Mazda Rx8 weighs in at a bit over 3,000 pounds and it is considered a lightweight sports car.
Emission controls include catalytic converters, air pumps, charcoal canisters, exhaust gas recirculation systems, and often many other components. They are crucial for protecting our environment. However, they do use quite a bit of engine power and are quite hefty to lug around. In fact, when enthusiasts start modifying a car to go faster, the first thing to go is emission's equipment because it is the cheapest, easiest way to make the car go faster. In addition, people usually see a 15% - 25% improvement in economy once those parasitic systems are no longer there.
When it comes to safety, comfort, and user friendliness, our cars have become weighed down by air conditioning, televisions, power windows, complex audio systems, gps navigation, a billion air bags, stability systems, automatic transmissions, and lots of other devices.
In fact, automatic transmissions are less efficient, and are prone to wear by design. The same car with an automatic transmission will get worse gas mileage, weigh more, and make less power (at the wheels) then its manual counterpart. However, that is the cost that we pay for comfort.
When cars become heavy due to these additions, manufacturers are forced to look at larger, more powerful and fuel hungry engines to drive these beasts. Naturally, economy takes a back seat.
When I began to look at this company, I was expecting to see a small high revving engine that produced high peak horsepower. When I saw their predictions of over 100mpg for a five seater car, I was very skeptical intrigued to say the least. As a car enthusiast, over the years, I have heard of a couple cars and myths that have achieved this goal.
Here are a few examples:
-A honda motor available from 96-00 internationally capable of 60 mpg in a civic (non hybrid): http://asia.vtec.net/article/d15b/ (bottom of the page 3-stage vtec) http://asia.vtec.net/spfeature/vtecimpl/vtec1.html
-This car uses a d-series Honda Motor (A MUST WATCH video if you don't feel like reading the articles) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-usB...layer_embedded
-A guy effectively achieving almost 70 mpg by doing his own custom modification: http://www.d-series.org/forums/force...g-64-8mpg.html
-A civic with a 3-stage engine equipped for sale, note the power and economy figures (for comparison, a standard civic of that generation offered in the US came with about 110 horsepower and 36 mpg) http://www.hondamarketplace.com/show....php?t=2699294
-A series of articles from popular science on super atomization and super lean burn technologies
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...ns/smokey1.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...ns/smokey2.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...ns/smokey3.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...ns/smokey4.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...ns/smokey5.jpg
However, I was pleasantly surprised that they took this a bit further with their designs. Nonetheless, having read those articles, I am sure that there is more going on behind this engine than what they say publicly.
http://www.ecomotors.com/videos/intr...%A2-powertrain
*** CAUTION *** Here I start to go into engine design discussion with minor basic explanation
The basic operation of this engine is that of a two stroke. Two stroke engines are known for their high power to weight density and agility. However, they are also known for their higher fuel consumption. The company solves this issue by adding a second piston to cut down on the intake/exhaust overlap and an electically driven turbocharger to further degrade this effect. Overlap is horrible for low end of an engine's RPM range, but it is quite favorable for high RPM power.
The power predictions are off the charts as well. http://www.ecomotors.com/engine-design
Of course the power production will most likely be highly dependent on the type of fuel that they are using. Nonetheless, this versatility is also a definite plus. I think that this will be an engine with similar power curve characteristics to diesels we see today. The high maximum torque down low and the relatively low RPM for the maximum power tells me that contrary to what they say on the video; I believe this will be a conventionally (about 4.5 - 6k RPM max) revving engine with high torque outputs along all ranges. This also makes me think that this is a lean-burn engine by design. This is because a lean mixture takes less time to burn and therefore limits max engine rpm, just like diesel takes longer to ignite as well. In addition the stroke is longer for higher compression required for a diesel which causes the fuel burn speed to be insufficient at a much lower rpm to still provide power.
The key to this design is the electric driven turbocharger that offers no lag and electricity generating potential. (I hope that they will be able to eliminate the alternator all together.) In addition it greatly helps fuel economy and I think they may very well be doing the same thing Smokey was trying to do in the Popular Science article up top (Super Atomization). This would explain how they can use a very high compression ratio required for diesels and still run petrol without catastrophic engine detonation under lean burn.
Overall, I am very happy to see a car manufacturer looking at the core problem behind fuel economy -weight and energy density. I think that this is a much more realistic step towards a green future and I am eager to hear more developments. I just hope that this amazing engine will not get swept under the rug like the examples I have provided above and the GM EV program of the nineties (to name a few). In my lifetime and my research, I have seen enough of these promising developments disappear to never to be heard from again. It is interesting that wherever you dig under the surface when it comes to energy and power consumptions, you will find fairy tales such as the ones listed above.
(the class has nothing to do with engines ... it is more of a current even in the Industrial Engineering world .. the title is ORGNZATNL PLANNG&CONTROL ... its about how big corportations work and where Industrial Engineers come in ... I am an Informational and systems engineer ... I reposted it on here to get some feedback regarding my predictions and cause I included some other interesting articles
Skip the top part ... its all about weight affecting efficiency BS ... you should already be aware...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Engine efficiency has been improving by leaps and bounds over the past couple decades. However, our vehicle MPG has barely improved . Why is this?
Weight. As our cars get more clean, user friendly, and safe, they start to weigh more and more. 20 years ago, a 3,000 pound car was just about average. Today, the Mazda Rx8 weighs in at a bit over 3,000 pounds and it is considered a lightweight sports car.
Emission controls include catalytic converters, air pumps, charcoal canisters, exhaust gas recirculation systems, and often many other components. They are crucial for protecting our environment. However, they do use quite a bit of engine power and are quite hefty to lug around. In fact, when enthusiasts start modifying a car to go faster, the first thing to go is emission's equipment because it is the cheapest, easiest way to make the car go faster. In addition, people usually see a 15% - 25% improvement in economy once those parasitic systems are no longer there.
When it comes to safety, comfort, and user friendliness, our cars have become weighed down by air conditioning, televisions, power windows, complex audio systems, gps navigation, a billion air bags, stability systems, automatic transmissions, and lots of other devices.
In fact, automatic transmissions are less efficient, and are prone to wear by design. The same car with an automatic transmission will get worse gas mileage, weigh more, and make less power (at the wheels) then its manual counterpart. However, that is the cost that we pay for comfort.
When cars become heavy due to these additions, manufacturers are forced to look at larger, more powerful and fuel hungry engines to drive these beasts. Naturally, economy takes a back seat.
When I began to look at this company, I was expecting to see a small high revving engine that produced high peak horsepower. When I saw their predictions of over 100mpg for a five seater car, I was very skeptical intrigued to say the least. As a car enthusiast, over the years, I have heard of a couple cars and myths that have achieved this goal.
Here are a few examples:
-A honda motor available from 96-00 internationally capable of 60 mpg in a civic (non hybrid): http://asia.vtec.net/article/d15b/ (bottom of the page 3-stage vtec) http://asia.vtec.net/spfeature/vtecimpl/vtec1.html
-This car uses a d-series Honda Motor (A MUST WATCH video if you don't feel like reading the articles) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-usB...layer_embedded
-A guy effectively achieving almost 70 mpg by doing his own custom modification: http://www.d-series.org/forums/force...g-64-8mpg.html
-A civic with a 3-stage engine equipped for sale, note the power and economy figures (for comparison, a standard civic of that generation offered in the US came with about 110 horsepower and 36 mpg) http://www.hondamarketplace.com/show....php?t=2699294
-A series of articles from popular science on super atomization and super lean burn technologies
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...ns/smokey1.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...ns/smokey2.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...ns/smokey3.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...ns/smokey4.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...ns/smokey5.jpg
However, I was pleasantly surprised that they took this a bit further with their designs. Nonetheless, having read those articles, I am sure that there is more going on behind this engine than what they say publicly.
http://www.ecomotors.com/videos/intr...%A2-powertrain
*** CAUTION *** Here I start to go into engine design discussion with minor basic explanation
The basic operation of this engine is that of a two stroke. Two stroke engines are known for their high power to weight density and agility. However, they are also known for their higher fuel consumption. The company solves this issue by adding a second piston to cut down on the intake/exhaust overlap and an electically driven turbocharger to further degrade this effect. Overlap is horrible for low end of an engine's RPM range, but it is quite favorable for high RPM power.
The power predictions are off the charts as well. http://www.ecomotors.com/engine-design
Of course the power production will most likely be highly dependent on the type of fuel that they are using. Nonetheless, this versatility is also a definite plus. I think that this will be an engine with similar power curve characteristics to diesels we see today. The high maximum torque down low and the relatively low RPM for the maximum power tells me that contrary to what they say on the video; I believe this will be a conventionally (about 4.5 - 6k RPM max) revving engine with high torque outputs along all ranges. This also makes me think that this is a lean-burn engine by design. This is because a lean mixture takes less time to burn and therefore limits max engine rpm, just like diesel takes longer to ignite as well. In addition the stroke is longer for higher compression required for a diesel which causes the fuel burn speed to be insufficient at a much lower rpm to still provide power.
The key to this design is the electric driven turbocharger that offers no lag and electricity generating potential. (I hope that they will be able to eliminate the alternator all together.) In addition it greatly helps fuel economy and I think they may very well be doing the same thing Smokey was trying to do in the Popular Science article up top (Super Atomization). This would explain how they can use a very high compression ratio required for diesels and still run petrol without catastrophic engine detonation under lean burn.
Overall, I am very happy to see a car manufacturer looking at the core problem behind fuel economy -weight and energy density. I think that this is a much more realistic step towards a green future and I am eager to hear more developments. I just hope that this amazing engine will not get swept under the rug like the examples I have provided above and the GM EV program of the nineties (to name a few). In my lifetime and my research, I have seen enough of these promising developments disappear to never to be heard from again. It is interesting that wherever you dig under the surface when it comes to energy and power consumptions, you will find fairy tales such as the ones listed above.
Last edited by stinksause; 09-14-2010 at 07:19 PM.
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