s13lover

I like the C6 much more than the C5. I always thought the C5 looked like a lame version of the FD RX-7. The interior esp. is a big improvment over the cheap plastic and old person looking rolled and pleted seats on the C5.

PoorCollegeKid

This post actually made me laugh. "...only use it in a straight line..." I don't know what Corvette you're referring to, but for the C6 to handle like a $45000-$50000 German sports car would be a downgrade, at best. The base C6, the one without the Z51 handling package, pulled .95g's on the skidpad. The Z51 C6 is supposed to at least equal the C5 Z06 handling benchmark (1.0g+) and the C6 Z06 is supposed to be an incredible handling car. I guess these numbers don't mean much if you're looking at F1 cars, but the Vette will out handle just about anything short of an Italian or German exotic costing 4 or 5 times the price (notable exception: the Lotus Elise, although this car does not have the straightline speed of the Vette). The only car under $100k that can even touch the C6 in overall performance is the Viper, and the Viper costs about twice as much for only a small increase in performance, especially when one considers that the Z06 will most probably be a Viper killer for a little more than half the price of the Dodge. The best part about the C6 is that, despite its large engine, equally large amounts of power, and curb weight of ~3200lbs, it gets about the same mileage as an S2000 (C6: 19/28 [from Motortrend] S2000: 20/25 [from fueleconomy.gov]). The Vette is the best bang-for-your-buck performance car made, and has been for the last few years.

The Neon ACR, Ford Focus SVT, Pontiac Fiero, and the 1LE F-bodies are all American cars that handle very nicely. The 1LE F-bodies, for example, pull ~.90g's on the skidpad, which is very good considering the car weighs in at over 3400lbs and has a solid rear axle. Moral of the post: Blanket statements just don't work. If you're going to say something like "Japanese cars are underpowered" or "German cars are heavy and overly complex" or "American cars can't handle well" it's all well and good that you want to show us the extent of your ignorance, but to say these things about a Skyline (although most Japanese cars are slightly under powered stock due to the 280ps "limit", but this can be easily and cheaply remedied), a GT3, or a Corvette, respectively, is just asinine.

Ike

Very true, save for one thing. The US Elise should be about on par with the C6 in the 1/4 mile. Depending on who you listen to it looks like the Federal Elise will be anywhere from low to high 12s. After the 1/4 the vette will probably start to pull a little more but most sane people will never know that :p

PoorCollegeKid

The Federal Elise will probably run high 12s/low 13s if the 2ZZ's power isn't understated in the Elise. Seeing as how the aftermarket for this engine is weak, at best, it probably won't see any lower than 12 flat without serious modification (turbo kit, etc.). The Vette, on the other hand, has already run a 12.5 1/4 mile time and still has quite a bit of modding potential. If past models are any indication, the aftermarket will push the LS2 to its limits rather quickly. By quickly, I mean 2-3 years, as opposed for the 4 years that the Celica has been out plus however long it takes for the Celica parts to be modified/redesigned to fit in the Elise's engine bay. Stock for stock, though, they will be very close until the speed starts to build and then the Corvette will probably end up pulling like there's no tomorrow, as you said. Both cars should be incredible track beasts and I'd like to own at least one of them some day :p

wakeech

...i see that the moral of your post is that you don't know much about handling.

the Corvette, i will not argue, is a very serious and capable sports car. for you to include these other american "sports cars" is a joke. all you've listed is their skid pad numbers, which tell you absolutely nothing at all. there are a number of metrics which might be indicative of handling, but none of the ones i can think of are dynamic measurements.

anyways, this thread is about the Vette, and i still think that the new one has taken a decidedly Japanese turn in styling for the front, doesn't have a bad silhouette, could definitely use a tighter rear packaging (i'm sure sacrificing looks and structure to fit 2 golf bags or something in the trunk), and loose a couple hundred pounds. other than that, no complaints.

visitor

i don't understand what the obsession is with the steering wheel? it seems fine. is there something wrong with using a steering wheel from the cavalier? i don't see how it can be improved, it already gives an unobstructed view of the instrument panel, probably more so than other wheels during a turn. if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

the interior's rubbing off on me, as is the entire car. it definitely flow's better, i really hated the GM modular design where you can see that things were clearly defined and it'd be war if something spilled over to something else, such as the radio unit was clealry marked from the two air vents. god forbid if it suggested continuity between the two items. the viper, though nothing to gauk over, did have better continuity in the overall layout than the C5. your eyes weren't fixed around the air vent; things just naturally moved from one area to the next. same goes for the new Pontiac GTO. it's simple and the whole dashboard looks as one and not separate units fighting for your attention which is why i also like the Z's interior.

PoorCollegeKid

You're right, I don't know all that much about handling or suspension geometry, but what I do know is that the Vette and many American cars can do more than just lay power down in a straight line. That was the entire purpose of my post to XeRo, to show him that some stereotypes are not true and try to enlighten him on why. The sharing of knowledge is why forums like this exist, and I was only trying to contribute.

Many things come in to play when you're talking about handling, including lateral grip, polar moments of inertia, weight distribution, the car's mass, body roll, etc. I used skidpad numbers for a couple of reasons. For one, they're readily available and are pretty consistant from source to source, whereas slalom numbers and track numbers (which many, myself included, consider to be the true test of a car's handling ability) contain a bit more variation, especially when one considers that the weather, humidity, temperature, etc. can all have an affect on these times. Skidpad numbers also give a rough estimate of a car's handling abilities. If a car does well on the skidpad, 99% of the time it will also do well in the other handling tests if the driver knows how to extract the maximum potential from that car. Some cars are just trickier to drive at the limit than others, so a more subjective test may be even more misleading than using simple skidpad numbers.

I listed other American cars that could handle well just so that XeRo couldn't argue back that the Vette and the Viper were just flukes. The Neon ACR performs exceptionally well in auto-x events, as it is superbly well suited for cone dodging. The Focus SVT is an inexpensive car that handles superbly, just like its cousins the Mazda Protege 5 and Mazdaspeed Protege. I included that car because, seeing as how this is a Mazda board, members here may own a Mazda other than the RX8 and can appreciate the driving dynamics of a smaller, relatively low powered, FWD hatchback with a superb suspension set up. The Pontiac Fiero is a light, midengined RWD car that is rather lacking stock (think Miata with only slightly better than average handling) but can be made both fast and nimble and has a history of being a good performer at drag, track, and auto-x events (again, like a Miata). The 1LE F-bodies are examples of popular, well known American muscle cars close to the RX8s price range that can do more than just go fast in a straight line. Rather than focus on having awesome handling and have good straight line speed like the RX8, the engineers took the opposite approach and gave 1LE F-bodies have great straightline speed and good handling. It's an example of how even American muscle cars most known for their capabilities in a straight line can still handle well, and was intended to stave off a counter argument that American cars cannot both go fast and handle well without costing more than the average Joe can afford. I was taught that a good debator always thinks a step ahead of his opponent and comes up with counters to his opposing arguments before they are made.

I didn't just choose these cars at random. These cars are all ones that most enthusiasts of auto-x and track racing have heard of and respect. Seeing as how auto-x and track racing seem to be the RX8s fortes, I thought that many, if not most, of the people here would have knowledge of their capabilities, if only because they are direct competitors or at least are active in the same competitions as the '8. If I brought the RX8 into a discussion here, I wouldn't have to comment on its excellent handling, or if I brought a 350Z in to a discussion I wouldn't have to elaborate on its superb straightline capabilities and good handling, or that a Miata was a great handling lightweight roadster that is somewhat lacking in the power department... I think you see my point. I apologize if you were confused by my choice of cars because you had no prior knowledge of them, and I'll try to be more elaborate in my future posts. I was just trying to avoid making a long post longer by using well known cars to avoid another unnecessarily long post (like this one) on the same subject that has already been covered in enough depth to get my point across.

With that said, back on topic. I see more of a German supercar/Viper look to the front of the C6 than Japanese, though I can definitely see where you're coming from. The C5 has a decently sized trunk, and so I think that they wanted to keep this feature at the expense of styling, as you did. Aerodynamics may also have something to do with it, as the Corvette does not have a rear spoiler so the engineers would have to do something to prevent lift at high speeds and keep the car feeling solid. The somewhat odd look may also just reduce the turbulence of the air flowing off the car, which is also desireable in a performance car. The new BMWs have strangely shaped trunk lids for this purpose, so maybe they just stole the idea from the Bavarians? Losing a few hundred pounds would be nice for straightline speed and may help handling, but only if lost from the front or the middle of the car. I would think that a 51/49 weight distribution would help handling more than losing a few hundred pounds toward the rear and increasing this to 55/45. With the new weight distribution, understeer would be more prevalent and would have to be dialed out (if possible) and the car just wouldn't feel quite as balanced as it currently does, which is not what the engineers wanted at all. I agree with visitor on the steering wheel, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. It looks like it will work fine during either a competitive race or just driving down the street on your way to work.

wakeech

*sigh* i said the corvette was good.

as far as those cars there, they are not standouts, most notably your muscle car choice. they handle well for the whales that they are, but they're still whales. competitive in thier own classes, i'm sure.

in autocross, it's not the car. you can take anything and make it fast, because the driver matters, the tyres matter, vehicle weight matters, and beyond that it's little stuff. i know you know this, as miatas smoke vipers and stuff all the time.

all i'm sayin' is that there are good ways of doing things, and then there's all the other ways. in most of the exampless you listed, there are lots of things i'd take contention with about how well handling they really are, but it's moot. i'm tired. there are simply better ways. sorry, i'm a snob.

PoorCollegeKid

Nothing's ever perfect, there are always compromises that must be made, as you well know. Sorry if I came off as irritated or as a fan-boy, I'm just kind of long winded when it comes to making a point. Hope that last post didn't waste too much of anyone's life away...

PoorCollegeKid

Bah, hit the "quote" button instead of "edit".

pelucidor

I initially thought the C6 looked just 'OK', maybe a little better than the C5. Then I saw Motor Trends preview where every pic of the red C6 had a C5 in the bakground for comparison. WOW! The C6 is much better looking than I thought. Even the interior is nice except the crappy odd steering wheel.

camaro194

I think it looks great...definitly something to try to spark some interest in chevy. Their main problem is that they dont advertise...I wonder why they dropped the F-body, how often did you see a commercial for one of them? NEVER! But I see 50 commercials for every single Mitsubishi car made!! But yeah, the new C6 did get a decent makeover.

Lufa

I saw one in person on Friday near Musashino on Greystone in Austin... I didnt think they were available yet? It did not have dealer plates either and the inspection sticker was from Decemeber, was there a pre-order program for people willing to spend some cash?

Ahhh to be a bald dumpy 50 something hell bent on a mid-life crisis so I could consider buying one .

Hehe my wife couldnt tell the difference between the C6 and the C5 that was parked a couple hundred yards away... I tried pointing out the obvious, oh well.

s13lover

I think your wife was right because the car doesn't go on sale until summer. Maybe your saw a C5 with a body kit?

Lufa

hmmm...Guess I'll have to get a pic.... hell of a body kit, is all I have to say.

Would make more sense unless there was some C6 promotion going around town this weekend.

zerobanger

Atleast they didn't copy Mazda this time. They really ripped the FD pretty bad with the C5. This is a nice improvement over the C5. I hope the C6 is not as much of a fat ***.

Sin

C6 is a nice improvement over the 5.

MikeW

Yeah, because the C5 sucked.
You couldn't drive the car fast at night because of the air brake headlights.
The side windows would not stay secure.
The C5 had a non functional front grill (those two slits flanking the licence plate) and had brake cooling slots in front of the wheels (not offset so as to shoot its cooling air directly at hub/rotor/caliper)
Why the hell was the Z06 not the hatchback? (weight savings, come on) The regular corvette had a higher top speed.
The mileage numbers reported to the EPA are bunk, in order to achieve those one has to lug the hell out of the engine and even Mobil 1 5w-30 can help you there. Also CAGS, computer assisted gear selection (aka Skip shift) first to fourth (yeah that's fun) Although the best way around this was to start out in second.
The undercar aerodynamics of the C5 were not good for the mission it was supposed to do. Transmissions/differentials overheating, rear lift, garrish rear brake cooling ducts on the Z06, even with 18" wheels and 12"(13?) brake rotors
The mid mounted transmission(s) ate up valuable room for a big gas tank. Go for the gold, REAR mounted transmission and at least match the Nissan 350Z size of 20 gallons

babylou

Are you trying to say that the lights created soooo much drag that the car was no longer fast? Sheesh. I bet the top speed still exceeds 150 mph with the air brakes up.

You don't know jack about aero. Damn near every car that does not have a big *** rear wing has rear lift and front lift.

Yah that's what needs to be done. Increase the polar moment of inertia, increase overall weight and reduce rear crash safety so we can have a larger gas tank. This coming from a guy that is worrying about brake cooling ducts on a street car.

s13lover

If I owned a vette I think that I would take the weight distribution advantage of a rear transaxle over a larger fuel tank.

Katchoo

I can't stand it anymore! ARGH!

The last real Corvette rolled off the production line in 1967! So there!

*runs out the back door before anyone can react to that statement*

Katchoo

neener, neener, neener! You can't catch me! Pffft!

*crash! Bam! KabloOwie!*

Ouchie...

Ok...who put that trash can there?

MikeW

It doesn't have a rear transaxle. it is a midmounted transmission. The reason was there was still a well for a spare tire (mini one only) in the floor pan.

The corvette convertible hit 161 with the top down in a Car and Driver comparo.
The 'air brake' headlights are extremely disruptive to air flow, so no top speed runs at night (when there is usually less traffic)

GM could have put a little lip spoiler on the rear, and didn't have to block the side exits for under hood heat exhaustion (they are not completly blocked, just obstructed) So radiator air comes from the bottom breathing front and then flows out under the car.
The G35 come standard with 0 lift front aero, although in something like a vette, 0 lift rear would be better (or maybe downforce)
Considering that the C4 corvette had a rear mounted gas tank, moment of inertia and alleged crash safety reduction and weight increases don't hold much water.

rotary-convert

personally i love it!
the interior finally washed away the ac delcoish stereo/dash
its got japanese eyes with american curves
reminds me of my girlfriend

david