Skyline Maniac

Rats! Just when we all thought Mazda has made a come back and got above industry average.



This is just one report, but that's still pretty damn disturbing consider the Mazda 6 is the only new car out. This better not reflect the quality of the RX-8 or a lot of people will flip.

Lexus is doing an amazing job, Infiniti and Acura following closely. Caddiac is making a come back, and Mercedes finally got back to above average. Looking near the buttom of the list though, you can't help but shake your head. Specialty vehicles simply don't work. Some of these brands builts ONE CAR and ONE CAR only, and still managed to make their only product a POS.

RotorGeek

Yeah look at where the MINI is. WOW I never would have guessed. Hopely the RX-8 puts Mazda a little higher on this list next year

Vancouver

Hopefully it is older models like the Millennia and the 626 which drag Mazda down. The RX-8 is a much more modern car and hopefully will boost Mazda's numbers up substantially.

StealthTL

iTrader: (1)

The Mazda6 is built in Mexico, with a Brazilian adaptation of a Ford block with Mazda cams and pistons, I believe.
(please correct me if my facts are, in fact, fiction)
Whereas the '8' is made in Ujima, Japan.
There are measurable differences in the quality of similar vehicles from Japan vs branch plants - Suzuki, Toyota, Honda models from Nippon routinely score better #s than the 'foreign' made versions.
S.

Skyline Maniac

I'd love to agree with you, but the 626 has consistently be the most reliable Mazda in recent history. Millenia has been getting above averge reliability reviews, even though I disagree completely.

gord boyd

I think Plant and it's integrated Suppliers can be a good predictor.
Can anyone comment on the RX-8 Plant's ratings?

Huge improvements by Koreans, signal the possibility
of change is very manageable and RX-8 is their "flagship"
product.

I remain very confident. Skyline Maniac seems to stir the pot
too often.

Jerome81

Okay, gotta do some clearing up in here

First, this JD Power survey is based on the first 3 months of ownership. It is the average number of CUSTOMER COMPLAINTS per 100 cars in the first 90 days of ownership.

In reality, this survey doesn't tell you all that much. For instance, consumer expectation comes into play here. Lets say someone goes out to buy an everyday Ford Taurus or Chevy Cavalier. People who buy these types of cars would generally tend to be less discerning customers than say, Toyota Camry owners, or BMW owners, etc. This means that the Ford/Chevy owners would be less likely to take their cars in for minor rattles, quality problems, than the other owners would, and thus "quality problems" that ACTUALLY exist on the Ford/Chevy would go unreported, while the Toyota/BMW problems would be reported. This would tend to give Ford/Chevy an inflated rating, while Toyota/BMW would be closer to actual numbers.

In addition, I'm not sure if any complaint a customer has that is replaced/repaired is considered a quality problem, or if there are certain categories that must be repaired/replaced to be a "quality problem."

Lastly, this survey tells you NOTHING about long-term reliability and quality. Remember, quality is how well parts are put together (or something along those lines) while reliability is how long those parts last. They are not the same thing. A car that has fewer quality problems in the first 90 days may have many more quality/reliability issues at 100,000 miles than a car that receives a poorer initial quality ranking.

I'm not saying this necessarily in defense of Mazda, or of any other car company, I'm just trying to put this all in perspective. While no measurement can be exact on quality/reliability issues, Consumer Reports provides the most accurate ratings on long term reliability and quality than JD Power can.

In my eye, I'm 1000 times more concerned about quality and reliability after my warranty runs out than some small problem I had in the first 90 days of ownership. If you talk to people you know, read Consumer Reports' rankings, and take your personal experiences into account, you'll realize that many makes that might be towards the bottom of the JD Power inital quality list are towards the top of the long-term reliability list and those towards the top of the JD survey are towards the bottom in long-term reliability.

These rankings are always good to look at, but I don't base my car purchasing decisions on them at all.

I hope my lecture helps at least a few of you

BillK

I got one of these surveys for a new car I own and basically, the main problem is what is considered a complaint.

For example, I own a vehicle near the top of the quality list and I have some major complaints (rattles) but I know the dealer can't do anything to solve them, so they don't count as complaints because I haven't bothered to take it in for a service visit.

However, if I had an RX-8 with the same rattles, I certainly would have taken the car in simply because I know if a Mazda has a rattle it can usually be found and fixed, not remain something I have to live with (and fume about.)

Of course Lexus really is that good, but in my experience driving one is like driving a Toyota - well built and solid with no defects but also no joy and no soul (or BMW may be the "Ultimate Driving Machine," but a Lexus is the "Ultimate Driving Appliance"...)

babylou

I don't buy the reduced complaints when the car is of certain manufacture than another. I guess there really is no point to argue though since there will never be a decisive answer. I do agree that IQS is not the be all end all survey. However, there is significant correlation between JD Power's IQS and JD Power's long term durability survey and CR's long term reliability survey.

A couple of observations I made are:

It would be interesting to "weight" the IQS with average sales price. Wouldn't you hope that a $50k BMW has higher IQ than a $25k Toyota.

50% of the top six name plates were American. Just think about it. If the American engineer and assembly line workers weren't the absolute epitome of crap how high could these name plates rank? Kind of debunks that trite and ignorant thought. Doesn't it.

If one removes the top name plate and the bottom name plate there is less than a 2:1 difference in IQ between vehicles. Not such a wide range.

When these surveys were first began a few decades ago the reported problems were on the order of 300% higher. All cars are improving each year. Quite amazing.

The IQS registers all complaints, whether they are appropriate or not. For instance the Hummer H2 does not post on the window sticker an EPA fuel mileage rating. The H2 had an enormous amount of complaints from owners that the vehicle gets poor fuel mileage. Duh! It weighs three tons and is shaped like an air brake. I got this bit of infor from Automotive News.

red_base 95

Actually, the North American Mazda 6 is built in Flatrock Michigan, using the Ford Duratec Block with Mazda developed variable valve timing. Versions for other global markets are produced in Japan. I don't think that Mazda has a production facility in Mexico.

This is a bit distressing for Mazda overall. I would like to see a drill down of that data for specific Mazda models to see where the biggest problems are concentrated. Consider that Ford is also below average, and that Mazda's Pickup and the Tribute come straight off the Ford line. Is that a contributing factor? We would need to look at the breakdown for Ford specific models as well. Is there a way for the general public to get the model specific info?

For long term reliability, take a look at the auto section at MSn.com used car section. They have some info regarding issues with used cars. the 626 is rated as very reliable from 97-99, no info for 00 and newer; protege was the same from 96-99; Miata was also rated very well from 93-99, Millenia scored well also from 95-99.

Take that info with a grain of salt, but it seems that in general, Mazda makes good, reliable cars. I'm sure there are other sources for data as well, look up TSB's for Mazda models at alldata.com I think we need some more research on this before jumping to a conclusion. Viewing the chart is great, but without understanding the data used to derive that chart, it's simply empircal info. Root cause analysis is a good thing.

Vancouver

Power Results Show No Gain


Toyota holds the top spot, Detroit gains on them, but overall the quality of new cars hasn’t gone up, says J.D. Power.

by Jim Burt 5/5/2003


DETROIT — Japanese and German auto manufacturers still dominate a leading measure of quality by J.D. Power and Associates, and most of the industry remains below average in things gone wrong during the first 90 days of ownership.

Toyota topped Power's Initial Quality Survey, released Tuesday, for the fourth straight year. Its leading ranking was due to the high quality ranking of its Lexus luxury cars at 76 complaints per 100 cars.

But Toyota was also one of the biggest year-over-year decliners, dropping 7 percent. Honda surprisingly showed the other big corporate decline, dropping 11 percent corporate wide from last year. J.D. Power's Brian Walters said the declines at both companies appeared to come from new model activity and adding new production lines. "We have seen this before...when a line is added, quality slips for all quality at those plants," said Walters noting that Sienna production was added to Toyota's Indiana plant where it already makes Tundras and Sequoias.

Toyota brand vehicles ranked ninth at 121 problems per 100 vehicles behind GM brands Cadillac and Buick, Ford's Mercury brand, as well as Porsche and BMW. Three Toyota vehicles, including the Tundra pickup, Sienna minivan and Tacoma pickup, fell out of leadership positions in their respective categories.

Out of 36 auto brands ranked, just 15 ranked above average. And after improving an average of 6.7 percent per year for four years, the industry as a whole showed no improvement in 2002 with an average of 133 problems per 100 vehicles.

Initial quality and quantity

Power's research shows that consumers rank quality, especially as it is reflected in vehicle dependability, near the top of their buying considerations. "Initial quality is different than vehicle dependability measured over three to five years, but it tends to be a good indicator of dependability," says Walters. But even automakers that make big improvements in quality can be dogged by a bad reputation for years. GM says that while its Malibu has bested better selling and more highly regarded vehicles like Honda Accord and Toyota Camry for two straight years, consumer perception of Chevy's overall quality is only half of its actual quality score. Two contributing factors: When an automaker has too much factory capacity devoted to a model and is forced into heavy discounting to sell them, perception of quality stagnates. And cars that are sold to rental fleets in large numbers, like Malibu and Ford Taurus, also get a reputation for blandness and ubiquity that can hurt sales to consumers no matter how high the quality score.

On the other hand, individual models and brands with serious quality problems often sell very well because of styling and consumer perception that they are higher quality than they are. Perception of quality among Volkswagen vehicles is twice actual scores.

Walters said quality gains across the industry are being stalled by the abundance of new products being launched by automakers. But Walters was quick to add that first year glitches were relatively small. Cars that were redesigned fell an average of just 5 problems per 100 cars, and those problems tend to straighten out in the model's second year. Some redesigned vehicles scored better than their predecessors. Mitsubishi averaged an improvement of 26 problems per 100 cars last year. New vehicles from Chrysler, Hyundai and Toyota also scored better than preceding

models.

The big winners

The big improvers in 2002 were Suzuki, up 31 percent over last year's score based on a better launch of the Aerio; Mercury up 22 percent; Kia up 21 percent and Jaguar up 14 percent. GM as a whole dropped 3 percent in IQS, but still managed to stay ahead of Nissan, which improved 11 percent to 135 problems per 100 vehicles corporate wide.

J.D. Power and Associates publishes the top three cars in each vehicle segment, but doesn't publish the individual model scores. Toyota led all automakers by topping six categories including: Toyota Prius, Corolla and Echo, which took three of the four top spots among compact cars; Lexus ES300 for best entry luxury car; Lexus GS300/430 for best mid-luxury car; Highlander for best mid-size SUV. Ford grabbed top scores in five categories including: Mercury Sable for best premium mid-size car; F-Series for best full-size pickup truck; Crown Victoria for best full-size car. Ford also gets credit for the Mazda Miata leading sporty cars and the Mazda B-Series as best compact pickup because of its controlling stake in Mazda. GM topped three categories including Chevy Malibu as best mid-size car, Chevy Suburban as best full-size SUV and Oldsmobile Silhouette as best minivan.

Boozehound

Ouch. Have you ever driven a GS430? Loads of power, great brakes, and quiet as a tomb. I'd rather be in a Lexus, than sitting on the side of the road in a benz or a bimmer. I suppose that if you're all about fixing your car and doing the shadetree thing, then a Lexus probably is "soul-less," but wouldn't you be happier with a 7 series and some wicked electrical gremlins or perhaps an M that periodically needs a new engine?

eccles

The thing that amused me was that the largest number of complaints about the Hummer H2 were gas mileage and wind noise.

Hello? You bought a 6400lb monstrosity with all the aerodynamics of a brick shithouse - what did you expect, ferchrissakes?!?

Apparently Hummer is not required to publish the gas mileage because the H2 is so heavy that it exceeds the limits for "light trucks" - that alone should tell you something. (The unofficial estimate is 11mpg, btw)

Jerome81

Well, that just puts even less faith in this ranking when things like poor gas mileage and headlights that shine too high are considered "quality problems". Thats not a quality problem, there's nothing wrong with the car at all, yet they get marked as such.

Thats like complaining a LS430 is too quiet and marking that down as a quality problem

Spining Ncnratr

Like that Silhouette best Minivan but GM is axing Olds.
Hilarious Olds is probably GM's top from a techno point of view but getting rid of this and concentrating on Saturn.

nk_Rx8

Let's face it, Mazda is not exactly a high end car. And therefore, buyers are probably less "discerning" than Honda, Toyota, Lexus, BMW, etc buyers. So with your logic, Mazda should be rated a lot better than they are. Which tells you that there are more initial quality problems than some of those other brands. These results along with the Mazda reputation of cruddy dealer service have always been a concern of mine when looking at the RX8. I have friends that own Mazdas and they have always complained about the dealer service. So I am concerned about Mazda service and now their quality/reliability.

Jerome81

I don't think Mazda is much less respected than Nissan Subaru, etc.

As far as quality reliability, believe what you will, people always do, but I just don't think these rankings are even close to representing the real thing. I'm sorry, but Chevys ranked all that much higher than Mazdas? Even with the Tribute/B Series I don't believe it.