PhineasFellOff

The HP upgrade to the 2005 G35 sedan and coupe (277 HP and 295 HP, respectively) that Skyline Maniac outlines in the other thread in the General Automotive forum is extremely intriguing insofar as what it means to Mazda.

I'm not sure how correct my logic is but here goes.

1. The G35/350z combo is a major competitor of the RX8.

2. What a competitor does first can affect what a carmaker does.

3. The G35/350z came out one year before the RX8, putting Nissan in a position to make changes first while Mazda watches closely.

4. With the HP increases by Nissan, Mazda has to respond in some way, either by (a) upgrading HP in the RX8, (b) introducing another car to compete more directly with the upgraded competition, or (c) denying any comparability at all.

5. (c) Denying competition would be disastrous. I don't see this happening.

6. (a) Will Mazda increase HP in the 13b? The better question is: Can they? In NA form, I have some doubts but I really have no clue here. Supercharging or turbocharging? Well, wouldn't only a small percentage of, say, 2006 RX8's have FI while ALL G35/350z's would have increased HP? That would not be a prudent response by Mazda. Increasing displacement? Well, this generally happens across 4 to 6 year life cycles, not within a current cycle. Doing this for the next life cycle will be too late.

7. (b) How about introduce the RX7 with greater displacement and more HP than the RX8? This would take some of the onus/pressure off the RX8 and provide Mazda with a unique one-two punch similar to but different than what Nissan enjoys with the G35/350z.

I don't care what the rumors are about the RX7 not coming out. Some of it is probably misinformation purposely put out by the carmaker itself. I'd prefer to look at the moves by the competition and what those moves necessitate for Mazda. Nissan's moves make necessary some kind of response by Mazda. The question is what will those moves be?

What are your thoughts, you guys?

terbeaux

Can you say triple rotor?

Don't forget Toyota has one in the works due to be out soon. Let the games begin!

m477

Well, I'm sure that Mazda has planned upgraded versions from the start, but of course they aren't going go release them all right away. I bet we'll see a revised version and/or Mazdaspeed turbo version around 2006-2007.

Also, I'm sure that Nissan's revisions to the G35 is at least part in response to the attention the RX-8 has been getting - great reviews, international engine of the year, winning comparos, etc.

However, I don't think that a minor revision by Nissan really necessitates any response from Mazda. Keep in mind that the RX-8 is selling strongly and is still ~$4k less than a similarly-equipped G35c. After all, Subaru didn't need to make any changes to their $25k 220hp WRX when Mazda released the $27k 238 RX-8 because people kept buying them.

downshift

It's cool that Nissan is making strides to rope in more people who believe the best bargain is the car with the highest horsepower to dollar ratio.

murix

I would have bought my car over the G35 even if I knew it only had 225hp and the G35 already had 295hp. This is really the wrong car if you all you care about is hp. I know when I hit the track and I am passing those 300hp+ cars I made the right choice.

Skyline Maniac

eh... also - reliable, excellent service, semi-luxury, Brembo, excellent chasis, comfortable, very good handling, fast, smooth, high resale value, low insurance premium, reasonable gas milage, proven engine and has torque like you wouldn't believe. The down side is you can't find one with huge discount, especially those 6MT Coupes....

PhineasFellOff

There is a psychological threshold somewhere with HP and perceived competition between cars and value.

Mazda better dance on the right side of that threshold. M477 brought up a good point. The HP upgrades have probably been ready to go for some time now. BUT a problem exists because of the current HP misrepresentation/debacle. For example, if the first tier of HP increase that should come out around 2006 only gets us back to 250 HP, that would not be too "forward," would it?

Again, FI would not be for all RX8's, whereas the HP increases for G35's and 350z's would be for all. There must be a general, across-the-board increase in HP in two-year intervals or something like that.

Murix's position is interesting, too. His position is basically that of noncompetition that I outlined in the opening post. Mazda can play that position, sure, but I think it would be extremely imprudent. Mazda may not have a choice but to do this, I think, if the engineering challenges prove too difficult. I think Mazda MUST find the engineering solutions, because I think that is the only way to ensure the rotary's survival. The marketing, such as spreading the rotary into several cars, is good but can go only so far without further engineering advancements.

PhineasFellOff

People in a thread in the Discussion forum are fairly certain that 280 HP can be squeezed out of the renesis in NA form. If this is true, then it will be all Mazda needs for the next 4 years, which makes me more likely to believe that an RX7 won't come out in 2006 or 2007 or at all because it won't need to come out. All Mazda needs to do is to get 4 to 6 years down the road, when a new-cycle RX8 might sport increased displacement (instead of an RX7). Hell, in 2007 or 2008, if a two-door RX8 comes out with the bigger engine, that to me would pretty much be a new RX7.

pelucidor

If high HP was all that mattered then the old 260HP Acura TL Type-S or new 270HP TL or 260HP G35 should have destroyed the 225HP BMW 330i in sales. But they didn't...

PhineasFellOff

I see your point, pelucidor. But perception is at play here, and perception is different for different situations. The current 3-series not only came from a tradition but came from a previous 3-series that was the best ever, effectively allowing BMW to sell more BMW's overall than Mercedes for the very first time in history. The current car carries that mark of excellence in the eyes of the general population, not just die-hard autophiles. You can't say the same for the TL.

However, the RX and the Z both have at least 3 generations. They virtually evolved together. They can not be separated. The current cars' packagings have become a bit different, yes, but the perception is still there that they ARE to be compared. Differences can be compared also, not just similarities. And they are compared by virtually everyone.

Perhaps you're right on the HP comparison. I just don't want to see that marketing path cause the demise of the rotary.

scorp76

Is it cool, or sad?

murix

In terms of power compared to competitors, every RX-7 made has been underpowered including the 3rd gen. The 1G was 101 and only upped to 135 in 84. The Z made 200hp. The 2G was 147 in the beginning and never made it past 200. The Z was making 300. The 3G was 255 when its competitors were pushing 320. What makes this any different. HP has never been the selling point of a rotary. Again, if hp is your thing, this is the wrong car. I do not really think Mazda is too concerned. Did you see them too concerned with the Miata when all the new more powerful competitors appeared? Not too much. Mazda has never been a company to compete on hp alone.

Skyline Maniac

Mazda's motto "Weight is the enemy"

It would be better for Mazda to cut another 100-150lb off the RX-8 rather than giving it more horse power. Let's try to bring the curb weight under 3000lb loaded and we'll have a zoom zoom car.

RX8-TX

You gotta a very good point going on there: drop the back seats, suicide doors and listo! at least 300lbs lost with Atkins!

PhineasFellOff

I knew someone would bring this up eventually. I should have just addressed it up front. The 3rd generation RX7's performance numbers were a little bit better than all of the competition (300zx twin turbo, Mitsubishi 3000 twin turbo) except the Supra twin turbo. Those numbers allay the fact the RX7 was down on HP. We can't say the same for the RX8. SOMETHING needs to be brought closer to or higher than the G35/350z, whether its performance (notably straightline) or HP.

Shiri

The RX8 is more of a competitor with the G35c, not really the Z. Z is in another league altogether, boosted or unboosted.

I think Mazda should do something about the MPG issue, for a 1.3 litre engine it is shockingly terrible. FI is only going to put it within the leagues of Astons and Dodges (in MPG not performance obviously).

Feras

iTrader: (1)

umm from most reports on the track testing of the RX-8 vs 350Z, the RX8 is only a couple tenths behind the 350Z. Yeah its not as fast straight line...so?

Shiri

Are you serious?

Which track is that?

Not the Best motoring one is it?

RX8-TX

I think he is talking about Lotus' proving grounds in the UK, were they shoot Top Gear. Read some here:

http://www.topgear.com/content/misc/TV/lap_times/

HeelnToe

Well hey, we all bought the 8 knowing it's not the best HP/dollar bargain out there. Mazda's marketing must be doing something right.

I think the 8's selling point is it's uniqueness, not it's power. Rotary engine, suicide doors, 4 real seats, insane redline, etc. Naturally, if the power difference (vs. the competition) becomes *too* large, buyers will begin to grumble.

But for the most part, 8 shoppers are probably more attracted to it's unique attributes and nimble design rather than shopping HP figures and 1/4 mile times. At least I was

PhineasFellOff

What I'm saying is that performance numbers can mitigate (psychologically) lower HP, as was the case with the 3rd generation RX7. The RX8 is down on BOTH, so it has a hill to climb with perception in this regard, which is never the preferred situation in business.

The RX8's situation, with disgruntled owners and would-be-owners, tells us something about what's going on behind the scenes with Mazda: engineering challenges. It's clear to me that if Mazda was readily able to squeeze more out of the renesis, it would have chosen to get the performance numbers closer or equal to the G35/350z. To do this, Mazda would not have to match Nissan's HP figures, since the RX8 is lighter (reference point is the 3rd generation RX7).

Again, for the reasons stated in a previous post, it doesn't matter how different the packages of the two cars are. The two cars practically grew up together, and that perception will remain firmly entrenched in the minds of carbuyers. The fact that the packaging is different gives Mazda (and some owners) some breathing space in its campaign to insist that the two cars are not direct competitors. But Mazda is playng on the risky side of too many aspects of psychology (including MPG); that much is clear. And NO carmaker would have volunteerily put itself in this across-the-board situation were it not for some engineering difficulties.

As people in my business understand clearly, if you got the goods and the substance, you effectively remove yourself from the psychological uphill battle.

PhineasFellOff

To make my point, let's switch the viewing lens. Forget about the Mazda and focus on Nissan. If you're a Nissan strategist a few years ago, what are you thinking? You're thinking about SEAMLESS connections from the Altima to the Maxima to the G35 to the 350z. Nissan has done a masterful job with this marketing vision, even if their products are severely under-engineered.

If you zoom in closer on the G35-350z connection, you can see how Nissan intended all along for the two cars to battle any and all competitors TOGETHER (same with the Altima-Maxima connection). If you're considering buying the RX8 or BMW 3-series, you can't help but to also look at both the G35 and 350z. At least one of the two Nissans (and possibly both) will imbue your milieu/consideration.

Nissan's product "spacing" is really amazing and something I've never seen before in the auto industry, not even with Toyota. As an RX fan, I FEEL like the RX8 is out there all alone battling two formidable giants. I feel that the RX8 is carrying too great a weight/burden on its shoulders. An RX8 coupe or RX7 would create a similar two-car attack to better face Nissan. Unless the RX8 and rotary are only side-shows for Mazda's real focus: the 3, miata, and 6.

zerobanger

Can you say "Not Possible".

Think about it ..the thing that makes it a renesis...Makes it IMPOSSIBLE to have a 3 rotor engine.

And if by some great means physics can be denied and they did a 3 rotor it would get 8 MPG.

If you want to increase the displacement the way to go is make a 1.4, 1.5 or 1.6 liter renesis. This should be able to be done by increasing the rotor width, which SHOULD be possible by changing the housings, etc.

Senseny

Zero, nice to see some of your posts again. I don't know if I just haven't read what you've written lately or if you have been away.
I am hoping that if Mazda does bring back the 7, they do something in the mold of the Lotus Elise. ****, the current Renesis has higher HP than the tweaked Toyota engine in the Elise--and the Elise's performance numbers are very similar to a stock FD. I am not sure about torque, but it can't be dramatically different. I guess one of the problems would be that the 7 would then cut into the Miata's sales, but personally I don't care. Once again, the key is weight reduction.

zerobanger

Thanks Sensey...

Actually C & D's new issue has the lotus elise pulling 0-60 in 4.3 seconds, 70-0 in 160 feet, 1/4 mile in 13.2 @ 104, lateral G's in 1.06 (the highest ever recorded). Standing 5-60 in 5.8 The torque in the elise is 133.

The FD was probably even more impressive in 1992 than the Elise is today, but there is not much of a comparison in performance. The elise will win every single contest, EXCEPT top speed. The Elise tops at 140. Mod potential is another story.

Now consider a 2450 lbs Miata sized car with a 238 HP renesis engine and good gearing... you should have similar #'s as the lotus interms of acceleration and if Mazda could make the Rx-7 in 1992 have a .98 skid pad (the same as a 2004 Z06), I would think they could build a Lotus Killer and quite frankly, The FD was the closest thing to a street legal race car..until the Elise arrived...

I say its Time for us to regain our glory.