snizzle

I agree. I think the Challenger Concept is TOO retro but that is subjective as well.

bascho

A concept is supposed to be over the top radical. The production versions of these concepts will be a little less edgy and more 'mass production'. A concept of anything is going to have no rules and no boundaries. Got a 425hp engine.....put it in there......got some 22" x 10" wheels.....git 'em on there.....got some fancy instrument cluster and gauges from a crashed spaceship....wire it up. The fact is, the things that really make these concepts attract the 'car enthusiast' is the wow factor and price isn't a factor. I hate to sound like a broken record....but look at the Mustang concept vs the production car. The Concept was a drop-dead gorgeous automobile with 400 hp and 20" rims and great lines and a fantastic interior.......then came the reality of mass producing this car. Sure the production car is nice....but no comparison to the concept with was 'wow'.

And not to be a party pooper.....but GM announcing a $8,600,000,000 loss for 2005 isn't to convincing of their ability to take a risk right now.

bascho

Hell.....look at the GT90 concept Ford released prior to the Ford GT. The GT90 was an amazing concept that took inspiration from the GT40 but applied it to a futuristic concept. I really would have loved to see that car in production.....but it just wasn't feasible.

snizzle

Of course it is but the Challenger is closer to production than the Camaro.

I'd say this is precisely the reason they should take a big risk. Sticking to boring designs is more of a risk at the moment to them. They need to take a stand and start the movement. Something has got to bail them out.

Japan8

^^ can't disagree with that logic...

bascho

I don't think their new designs are that boring. The new Impala is waaay better than the last version. The Colbalt and HHR is pretty cool, the C6 Vette is the best Vette ever IMO, the Buick line-up is amazing for the first time in a long time. Pontiac has some exciting products and Caddie has been reborn as a serious luxury performance company. If you want to talk about boring, start listing the exciting Toyota and Honda offerings this year.

Taking risks is fine, but it takes money to do so......and they just invested everything they had into finishing the GMT900 platform a year earlier than predicted. If they can fix some major problems facing them in the next two years, then it is probable that GM could have the Camaro ready for 2009.

Design1stCode2nd

GM is getting to the party late but they do have a few nice vehicles out or coming out. The Solstice/Sky look very nice. The camaro concept is very attractive and lastly the sleeper of the auto show for me was the Buick Enclave It looks great and the interior was beautiful. Also about 90% of it is production. This will be my wife's next car if I have any say.

tiggerlee

Just saw an interesting report on 60 minutes. They interviewed several big wigs at GM about the survival and resurgence of GM's product lines. When it came to the Camaro the GM VP was quoted as saying "If we didn't considering building this car we'd be brain dead,stay tuned" referring to the Camaro. They also gave a sneak peek of the new Cadillac design as well. It seems that GM is trying to focus more on design now to try and save the company from chapter 11.

rx8wannahave

So true, they would have to be brain dead not to bring back the Camaro.

I can't wait for it to come out...I hope for people like me, that they make the back seats more RX8 like and less standard. I have my rotary passion fix, with my 8...now I need my V8 fix and a Chevy V8 Camaro would be perfect.

bascho

There is no doubt that GM wants to build the Camaro. They also want to remain the biggest auto company in the world......they also want gas to stay at $2.12 per gallon so they can sell SUV's. They also want to avoid a Delphi strike.

My point is.....as long as they are a functioning company they will 'plan' to bring the Camaro to market. The big question is whether they will be in bankruptcy at that time. If gas climbs to a yearly average of $3.80-$4.00.....you can kiss the Camaro good bye.....as well as everyother V8 powered automobile. Remember how the foreign auto companies breached the US market in the first place??? US auto companies have to be a lot smarter about future offerings to remain competitive with foreign-owned products. Although I LOVE American V8 engines and pony/muscle cars......I really can't see a long-term future for them.

rx8wannahave

I don't know...if it's getting 30mpg highway with a 400HP V8, there just might be room for them. Is this true...we shall see, but now talk of the hydrogen charged gas engine making 20-30% better fuel economy with a part that can be basically bolted on (even to older cars)...there just might be room for our beloved V8.

With that said...we can't see past our noses on all sorts of things, let alone what will happen in the automotive industry.

AbusiveWombat

Just because the car is powered by a V8 does not mean that it will have poor fuel economy. The old 2001 Camaro got better fuel economy than my current 2.0L turbocharged 4 cylinder AND the camaro made more power.

here's a few numbers from Edmunds:
.............................HP.............EPA (city/highway)
2005 300C...........340 hp........17/25
2001 Camaro.......320 hp........19/28
2005 C6...............400 hp........18/28
2006 GTO.............400 hp........17/25

2006 S2000..........240 hp........20/26
2005 RX8..............238 hp........18/24

One thing you can count on from a GM V8 is awesome fuel economy for the power. My bet is that a 2009 V8 Camaro falls between the C6 and GTO. If you add some new techology like Displacement on Demand to the LS2 you may very well see numbers that are equal or better than the 5.7L V8's figures.

TheColonel

That's why they make V8's that get 30+mpg. Hell, my father's Z28 was only rated for 27mpg highway and it often averages 31-32mpg.

bascho

Do you guys really think 20 mpg in the city is good fuel economy at $4.00 per gallon?? You need to start thinking 3 years into the future when the Camaro is scheduled to be released. Right now gas is $0.40 more per gallon then the same time last year. Keeping that same rate of inflation, gas will be $1.20 more in 2009 than it is today. I just filled up today for $2.79 per gallon. Following the previously mention rate of inflation, that would mean that in 2009, I will be paying $3.99 for the same gallon of gas. That's assuming the rate of gas price inflation remains constant......what if it increases year over year?? $4.15.....$4.25 per gallon in a car that only gets 20 mpg in the city!!!!

Believe me, I love powerful V8 engines......but I have a feeling that I will only have one in my weekend toy. I will have to have an economical car for my daily commute.

snizzle

I agree. I think there is room for the V8. Displacement on Demand is a basic idea that just works.

bascho

Cylinder deactivation is a great idea to help the fuel economy of the big V8's......but cylinder deactivation is exactly how it sounds. If your 6,000lb SUV is running on 4 cylinders, do you really think you'll be able to pass anyone?? No, that's when the system shuts off and your back to all 8 cylinders. Any city driving will be on all 8 cylinders. The fuel economy is only going to increase with very conservative driving. I don't know about you, but when I had my Mustangs, my driving was anything but conservative.......if you want conservative buy a Camry. Like I have mentioned many times on this board, I don't agree with the 19/24 shown for the LS2. My coworker has a 2005 GTO and has mostly highway driving in his commute and averages 18mpg.

rx8wannahave

^fair enough, again...I can't prove otherwise until I get my hands on a LS2 (lol).

I just hope it's not the death of the V8...at least before I get my taste first!

bascho

I hope not as well. But the auto companies need to get off this hp war and into a fuel economy war. I think 400hp is enough for a street-legal automobile.....now give us 350hp and 35mpg city.

rx8wannahave

^AMEN! Stop making cars so dang fat...3000 pounds with 300HP is just fine and remember when you lose 100 pounds you gain 1mpg (so I hear).

I'm all for better fuel economy and it's well past the time we care more about this also.

TheColonel

As a former economics major, assuming any price increase or decrease will continue, especially at a steady rate, is like saying that it's only rained once in the past month and therefore it will only rain 12 times over the next year. There are way too many variables and there are plenty of highly plausable possibilities that could lead to $1/gal gasoline over the next decade. You simply don't hear about them for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that the news loves to scare the public. It's great for ratings and readership.

snizzle

Gimme more HP, NOW!

rx8wannahave

^yes...very true

bascho

That only applies to the RX8. Do you think the Vette needs 505hp to be a fast car? Does a Grand Cherokee need 420hp.....it's a ****** SUV!!! I am all about hp....but there are limits. I think 400hp is plenty for vehicles that cannot legally drive over 45mph on city streets and 70mph on highways.

rx8wannahave

I heard this once and I love it...

"The only right amount of HP is too much HP"

LOL

But, I think if the US auto companies new how to build cars like the RX8 (the great way they save weight) we wouldn't need so much. The Vette is the best job the US can do with saving weight...I think at least.

I like the 3000 pound 300HP formula myself.

bascho

I understand that any assumption is a mistake.....but your example is waay off gas price reality.....seriously.....rain??

I would like to hear some of your "variables and there are plenty of highly plausable possibilities that could lead to $1/gal gasoline over the next decade. "

I have never once read anything by anyone saying the the price of gas could one day be back down to $1 per gallon.....or even close. Most of the articles I read are about how gas has been sheltered from inflation found in almost every other commodity. That means gas price inflation is only bringing the price of gas to where it should be.....unfortunately that is going to really drive up the prices on all consumer goods.