runningnorthRX-8

Another American retro car...hate it...its anti-RX-8...shoot it!

TheColonel

Well this is getting heated...

Isn't it a 3.5L in the new G6's? I could be wrong and I'm not going to go look it up.

Firstly, if they build it, there MAY be a $30k+ top of line SS w/ 400hp. As a matter of fact, I'd be willing to bet that it would be around $33k, considering that the car is built on the GTO platform, uses the same engine, and is basically, the same type of car. (2+2 V8 Coupe).

There's nothing wrong with that. GM is a very experienced manufacturer and they have plenty of people who understand marketing. They know they're chasing the Mustang. They also know you can get a 300hp GT for $25k and a 200hp base model for under $20k. I'm sure they'll offer different trim levels that will feature engines and prices comparable to those. Being such, there's nothing wrong with offering another, higher level of trim that is on par with a GTO, in terms of price and power.

Also, the last generation Cobra was, without a doubt, aimed at the Corvette, not the Z28, SS or Trans Am's. Similarly, the GT500 will be as well. While in terms of overall performance the Vette and the GT500 are very different, the sad truth is that most American car buyers are more interested in HP numbers and 0-60 times than overall ability.

I think they way we're looking at the cars is inconsistent with how cars are marketed in the US. What needs to be remembered is that while many of us as RX-8 fans look at a Pontiac GTO and an RX-8 as completely different cars, one being a heavier muscular V8 that relies on raw power and the other being a lightweight sports car designed to carve turns, not burnout at stoplights, for the VAST majority they're in the SAME class. They're both a $30k+ 2+2 Sport Coupe and that's how buyers look at them. The way in which a car performs is often not as important as how much it costs when considering what it competes with.

My thoughts here are incomplete but I'm leaving. I'll come back and finish.

Japan8

Look. Just because a functional prototype with an LS2 is putting out 400hp doesn't mean squat at production time. Not when you have a price target you have to meet. Concept vehicles don't have to pass emissions. They get to have big, heavy, flashy wheels. They don't have to worry about crash standards. They don't have to worry about material cost for their exotic interiors... or even a really practical interior design.

You wanna compare concept cars? Ok... how about the Mustang concept vs the Camaro concept? That's fair. When and if GM decides to make this car and puts a production prototype on display... that's when you can start to make real comparisons to the Mustang. Until then you aren't doing anything more than an 18 year old boy alone with a porno video... it ain't the real thing as much as you may try to brag about it.

Ford was the first with retro... the retro MUSCLE CAR... or maybe pony car is a better term for these cars. Retro sedans and wagons are higher volume than sports cars/muscle cars/pony cars... it takes a long less ***** for an automaker to decide to make one of them.

GT500. It isn't and has never been targeted at the Vette. Originally when the new Mustang was coming out, Ford had intended to make an IRS model targeted at the M3. They say (and the results backup) that they dropped IRS because the redesigned live axel has performed very well in racing... why mess with success? And it adds weight and costs. A model beyond the GT500 was considered... a SUPER Mustang... but dropped. Who'd pay $50-60k for a Mustang? Ford (wisely) figured there's no money in it. So who are the GT500 competitors? The closest thing is the GTO. Not really much else. Some may cross-shop the G35c or 330ci, but they are really different animals... appealing to different people. As Bascho pointed out... the GT500 will be priced sub-$40k... waaaay below a Vette... which is a true sports car and offers an amazing package for the price. Just as the GT500 will. Ford will also be updating the interior in the GT500... just leather seats would be stupid... you can already get that in the GT. See a recent article on the convertible model... http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=3086

What's with the retro hate? I don't see anyone complaining about the Viper? It certain finds its roots in the Shelby Cobra... which really makes it a rip off since that was a Ford (at least motor).

Japan8

And you have a major gap in logic here.

GM is an experienced manufacturer so you claim (and I agree) they will offer similar price/models to the Mustang. A "limited" edition SS selling for $30k+ would be something similar to the GTO... 2+2 coupe and same basic platform as well. Agreed. So why would Ford be targeting the Vette? Why would anyone with a brain in their head compare them? By your logic someone would compare a BMW M5 with a Vette. From a pure performance standpoint, yeah it'll happen, but not on a purchasing level. So... GM is smart enough to build/price their cars competitively against the Mustang, but Ford is stupid enough to try to market the Mustang against the Vette?! Are you serious? If anything Ford was/is trying to market the top-end Mustangs against the M3 (as mentioned in my previous post). And even then... there is simply the same issue Toyota had... thus the birth of Lexus (name prestige).

The Vette is not only much more expensive than the 2003 Cobra, offers a different kind/level of performance, but it is also a 2 seater. You don't see Vettes at the drag strip with drag radials, new heads and pistions, nitrous and a S/C. But you do see a whole lot of Mustangs (yes, including Cobras), Camaros, TransAms and for older cars... Novas and Grand Nationals.

TheColonel

I'll say it's probably because Japan8-sanwa Tokyoni imasu (yeah my Japanese is terrible, lol), because over here in the states I've seen plenty of Corvettes set up for drag. Perhaps the market is different over there and perhaps how these two companies market thier products is also different from in the states.

I'll disagree with you for several reasons:

#1 Would anyone with a brain in thier head compare them? Well, I must know quite a few people who don't have a brain because they certainly cross shopped the two cars before they made a purchase. The comparison is made because the Corvette and the Cobra were within a few thousand US dollars of each other, after discounts and such. It's a common comparison in the eastern US market.

#2 The M3, here in the US, is far more expensive than the Mustang. One could not touch an M3 for under US$50k (ussually several thousand more), where as the Cobra was below $40k and the Vette could be hard for around $40k if you found a dealer willing to work on the price, and even if not, the base price was around $43k.

#3 I know someone who worked for Ford and delt with product development and marketing and he specifically told me that the Cobra was in part targeted at consumers interested in buying a Corvette. You can chose to disagree and not believe me, but I'm going to trust my source.

Also, as I said, I didn't fully explain myself before, and still haven't... why? because I've been drinking and can't remember what else I had to say before, lol.

Japan8

Actually, I'm refering to the drag strip in Bradenton, Florida.

There is virtually no drag racing in Japan. I say virtually because there just might be some... but I have neither seen nor heard of it.

1. They are dumb. Performance, insurance, SPACE are waaaay different no matter what they, you or Ford may say. I'm from the east coast and no one I know or even " a friend of a friend" would make that kind of a comparison/cross-shop.

2. You think the M3 is expensive in the US? You should see it in Japan. Not to mention the price of a Mustang GT or Cobra... ouch. Anyway... a Honda Accord coupe costs in the ballpark of a Mustang GT. Cross-shop? Competition? Of F&%king course not! Does that mean some idiot won't do it? Sure... why do we have things called the "Darwin Award"? Just because some idiot does it, doesn't make it right.

3. UH... "...the Cobra was in part targeted..." There you go. In part doesn't mean that was their plan. It has been an obvious cheap option for people shopping for $40-50k high performance cars. As you mentioned there are people who will make that comparison, so Ford went for "two-birds with one stone"... that still doesn't make it it's main competition...

bascho

I work in product development at Ford....who's your source? I think they are mistaken about the intentions of a car. First of all, why would anyone cross shop a 2-seater and a 4-seater.....I know I didn't. Just because two vehicles are in the same price range does not make them competitors. The Lincoln LS is $45K....would a customer cross-shop a Vette and a Lincoln LS? If you want to talk about a company building a vehicle to compete with the Vette....then talk about Dodge. The Vipers full intent was unseating the Vette as greatest American 2-seater sports car. And guess what, the C6 ZO6 is GM's answer to the VIPER, not the GT500.

I don't know how to illustrate any clearer to you that the Mustang is not marketed to compete with the Vette for customers.....and no one at GM or Ford will disagree with that. Are they both V8 powered? Yes. Are they in the same price range? Not really. Sure a Cobra can sell for $40k....but that is a bottom of the line, absolutely no optioned Vette. Is the M3 a competitor for the C5 ZO6? They are pretty close in price. Again, I doubt anyone is cross-shopping a Vette and an M3. More likely the M3 customer looked at a Mercedes AMG product or a Audi R product.

The Mustang is in the same price range as my RX8.....but it was not on my shopping list because I needed 4 doors. My cross-shop list included the Volvo S60 and a used M3.

snizzle

I cross shopped an RX8 and 350Z. I don't necessarily need the two extra seats but would prefer them. You guys would be surprised at what cars people cross shop.

Oh and bascho, product development at Ford huh? I was wondering why you appeared to be a Ford zealot, j/k!!

bascho

I can see cross shopping the 350Z and the RX8....they are pretty similar other than the # of doors. I am not saying the they're not people out there that cross-shop very different vehicles because their only constraint is price.....but that is not the majority of people. The majority is who the marketing departments cater to....always have. For me price was one factor of several factors and not really even the most important.

Yeah, I work in PD for Ford....it's a great job. I love working on future vehicles, but the downside is not being able to really talk about them. I can tell you that for the first time in a long time, Ford is really listening to the wants and needs of the buyers. We are taking things learned from catering to the Truck Markets and applying them across the line. The public is going to see a lot of new products which will suprise them when they see the Ford oval on the grill. It's very exciting.

rx8wannahave

Very true

Well, according to carsdirect.com you can buy a Vette for $45,000...not the Z06 mind you. Per your link it will start at $40,000 (they guessitmate) and I can't say that it wont be a hell of a performance deal. They made it look very mean...which I like, so good for Ford but I prefer a Vette still since I like it's looks better but of course if I was rich I wouldn't buy it since I need those rear seats.

Hmmm...what would I buy if I was making alot more money, hmmmm...what good 2+2's are out there that cost less then $50,000???

AH HA! How can I trust your opinion's now? LOL...I'm just messing with you....just remember I'm not bashing Ford, I think their new Sadan's are much improved and the new Mustang is way better than the previous one. I almost gave up on the RX8 and got one but the dealership didn't want to give me S-Plan pricing so I left.

So true, here is my list: (no, not all of these were serious considerations but they were considered regardless)

Along why I decided against it.

350Z (I didn't like the butt, it's price forced me to go used, and I needed rear seats)

Mustang GT (rear seat space/head room was very bad, interior was just OK, dealership refused to use S-Plan)

GTO (just OK handling, price forced me to go used, looks are just OK)

SRT-4 (FWD, looks, quality...I can't stress the FWD issue enough)

WRX/STI (box on wheels looks, for the STI price)

EVO (Mitsu suspect quality, price, looks just OK)

RX8 (The winner and I've been VERY happy with it)

Scion tC (the give up car, FWD, quick but closer to slow than quick)

Volkswagen R32 (price, and looks just OK)

There were more cars, but I think you get the gist of it. People do cross shop ALOT of cars based on money and their needs. While, I agree that these cars where not made to compete with each other necessarily, people compared them regardless.

If price wasn't an issue with me, I might have gotten something else but that's a big "might" because I REALLY liked the RX8 and now I've grown to love it.

The mag reviews were right, it's a hell of a car!

rx8wannahave

Great! There are only 2 American car companies left...adapt before it's too late. By the way, the new concept Forc SUV/wagon/everything else that looks similar to the new CX-7 looks pretty dang good!

So, when are you all going to give your sadans more power? 201 HP is really, how do you put this nicley...gutless? While I know...I know, for most people that's enough. Just remember 235HP plus is the standard just like at the Honda and Hyundia popular sadans.

playdoh43

question:
does ford employees only push Ford/Mazda/Jag etc thats owned by ford? or do they drive like everything... camry, accords etc.??

bascho

Next year...meaning the 2007 version, the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr will have the optional Duratec 35 instead of the Duratech 30. The Duratec 35 will have 250hp. The 201hp was the intial release of the 2005 Five Hundred/Montego/Freestyle with the Duratec 30. In 2006 the output of the Duratec 30 bumped to 221hp (still gutless in my mind for that heavy of a car). But 250hp Duratec 35 in the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr will be very competitive.

bascho

Well, in our parking lot you will find everything.....which I think is a discrace. Here we are losing market share and our own employees are assisting in that decline. You are definitely frowned upon for driving the competitors products....but that is about all. There are a ton of Mazda products in the parking lot....and I think that has driven Ford PD to working more closely with Mazda for vehicle development.

I would say the majority of the vehicles owned by employees are Ford Motor Company products....just not necessarily Ford branded. Jags, Volvos, Mazdas and Land Rovers are all acepted as if they were a Ford branded vehicle in the eyes of the employees.

rx8wannahave

Nice, that should be pretty nice (while FWD is still icky to me). Will the Mazda 6 get this too? Wow...if they put that in the 6 and made it RWD....sweet!!!

Sorry, I know it might not make business sense...but us car enthusiast have to dream at least. There is something to be said for the RWD layout and what it offers the owners of such cars. Just look at how popular DC is with their RWD sadans now a days.

I understand that point of view, but come on you can't force these people to buy a product they don't like. I would have loved to give Ford or GM, even Dodge my business but they all let me down by not having any RWD 2+2 sports cars and while Ford had the Mustang I explained the problem I had with it and the dealer.

So, of course I your Ford people should buy Ford but sometimes your left with no choice it seems.

That's great to hear, as you know they do great work. Maybe Ford can teach them that enough HP is never enough, too much is just right...lol.

About this, does Ford "own" Mazda or have a controlling stake in them? I ask because when I said to a Mazda USA rep "I know Ford owns Mazda"...the guy got really annoyed and with a (no offense but it was true) gayish attitude he said, "Ford does NOT own Mazda".

So...I'm confused about that, and by the way now that I know you work for Ford I'm forcing you to be my buddy...lol. Now we know who to encourage and give some feedback to.

Note: Here is my main complaint with the Ford Mustang, you never know you might find it useful.

Overall quality is good but the door panels on the one I test drove had a gap in it where it is attached to the metal part of the door. That was VERY disapointing and cheap looking.

Why put back seats if they won't be useful? All it does is add weight and take up space. The rear headroom was (and I"m 5"11) really bad, my head was up against the rear glass which in an accident can't be good.

Style wise, I like but don't love retro but your selling enough that who cares about changing that. I know I might not be the target buyer (might, beucase I'm a young married guy who has sports car blood who is in the lower middle class income level "I guess) but that's why I didn't buy the Mustang. Just an FYI...I won't bother you anymore with my opinion...lol.

I hope the best for your company and only wish I could be so lucky to be in the automotive world like you are. Heck...how do you get to be the guys who build the cars, that in itself would be a great job in my eyes.

bascho

AWD is going to be optional starting in 2007. So, they will have 250hp and AWD. That may be my next car.

I agree...but for Ford employees, it shouldn't be hard to find something you want between Ford, Mercury, Lincoln, Jaguar, Land Rover, Aston Martin, Volvo and Mazda. You shouldn't have to buy 'outside the family' as its referred to.


All the Japanese Automakers have a mentality of quality, efficiency and perfection....so American Automakers can learn a lot from Synergies with our Asian counterparts......European as well. Those Sweed's know how to build safety into their platforms.


Well, that is a tricky question. Since Mazda is a publicly owned company, all shareholders own a part of Mazda. Ford owns 33% of Mazda stock which makes Ford the majority shareholder. Since Ford owns such a large portion of the stock, they have controlling interests in the decisions made at Mazda.


Do you remember the model year of the one you test drove. 2005 was really a test bed for a new platform. As a whole the car was a success, but the first year of any totally new car is going to be problematic. I would give the car another chance and check out a 2006.....the fit n' finish should be better. Headroom wise it will be the same....but not much can be done about that.....except getting a convertible

I am in the same boat as you.....I really wanted the new Mustang when it first came out. I also had problems with discounts (when the '05 was released, even Ford employees were not getting A-plan). The insurance scared me off as well. But in retrospect......I would still get my RX8 over the Mustang.

BaronVonBigmeat

I have heard people say that the Camaro died because it was too expensive compared to the Mustang GT, but I could have sworn that it was actually a tiny bit cheaper. Plus it had a stout 6-speed instead of the Mustang's weak 5-speed, more power, blah blah. So why did it fail?

I'm pretty sure it was because of the V6 versions, which will be the meat-and-potatoes of any ponycar. You have to have a model that will appeal to the fat chick and secretary demographic, and the Mustang probably did that better. The styling of the last-gen Mustang was more "cute", the driving position was better for ordinary drivers, more interior room (IIRC), percieved quality/better interior (that's not saying a lot though), shorter overhangs, probably some other things I forgot. If GM releases a new Camaro, look for the V6 version at least to have much less macho than this concept car. If they go with an IRS, it will be as much for ride comfort as for handling.

Oh and bascho, who decided to make the new stang's trunk stick out so much further than the concept? See if you can get them fired. That's the real "turd in the punch bowl" compared to the concept car IMO. It makes it look much bigger and ungainly whereas the concept looked like a lean junkyard dog that could rip your face off.

bascho

Not sure who made that call.....but I agree with you...they fucked up the production version in several areas. I still use the concept for my screen saver to remind me of the difference between concept and production. That's why I am not getting too excited about this concept Camaro. Does the concept Camaro look sexy? Hell yeah. Is the concept powerfull? It's enough power for me. Do I think that is what the production car (if ever made) will look like? About as much as the production Mustang resembles the concept.

rx8wannahave

I agree 10000000%, that's my biggest grip with the Mustang styling. If the butt was shorter it would look way better.

Bascho...I 2nd it, who ever made that call needs a swift kick in the nuts...lol.

I too worry GM will mess up the final version of the Camaro, but hey...the Solstice looks almost perfectly like the concept. SO...maybe Lutz wont let them water it down much considering he did the same for the Viper when he was at Dodge, I think Lutz will keep it as true to the concept as possible.

But...we shall see.

rx8wannahave

I left this out...I think...????

Yeah, most of that time that should work.

Pretty good summation…so is there an agreed (industry wise) summation of what American car companies are good at?

Ah, understood…

Yeah, it was a 2005…the first batch the dealership got.


Same here, I just love my RX8 and I don’t look back. Honestly, overall to me it’s the better car. Mazda just built the almost perfect sports car for me…it’s just a pleasure to own.

Do you think Ford would ever go crazy and build their own rotary, using Mazda’s rotary??

Japan8

How do you (how did you) get a job in product development? What exactly do you do? Is it a more on the technical level or more on the sales/marketing level kind of job?

Damn... that's the kind of job I've dreamed of since elementary school...

rx8wannahave

^I 2nd that Japan8, other than playing football...that was my dream job. What a lucky guy (not to take away from his hard work of course).

You know what...I'm not even greedy, I'd love to do nothing but build cars all day...gosh, talk about taking pride in your job.

Bascho...you got to get me a job...lol

Japan8

The Mazda6? The Fusion? Both? Is Ford going to FINALLY put a MT in the V6 AWD model?

What if what you were shopping for was a G35c or 330ci? What is there in the Ford family to buy?

BTW... Lincoln styling sucks *****. The LS platform is good... as we can see particularly in the Mustang. But the styling bites and no stick in the V8 model?! Come on Ford! I'd just go buy a Caddie CTS-V with a STICK and be happy.

Uh... let's just say I almost entirely disagree. Efficiency? The Japanese? Are YOU serious?! Bwahahahaha. The Japanese are as efficient as the US (or most any other) government... in corporate, banking and government. What you percieve as such things is merely the outward appearance of a very illogical, inefficient, inflexible system... "the image of harmony"... to quote an interesting reading. http://www.thejapanfaq.com/FAQ-Primer.html Actually after reading this... you'll start to understand where I'm coming from.


Take a look at these two briefs:
"Management Rights" and "Major Shareholders in Banks"
http://www.nni.nikkei.co.jp/FR/TNKS/...sary/m_01.html

That should about clear it up. Ford owns enough more than 1/3 of Mazda's shares which gives them veto rights at shareholder meetings by law. They are also the largest single shareholder. Thus Ford has control of Mazda's management decisions. In today's world... that means owns. Besides... the Japanese are VERY funny about foreign ownership and even funny about corporate takeovers by other Japanese companies. It would be... more trouble than it's worth to go to 100% of outsanding shares or even 51%. Japanese banking and corporations is... a headache to say the least.

I agree with you and the others. The rear-end IS too long, the "driving lights" suck, and what's with the fake billet/chrome dash stuff?? I hate chrome/billet/etc. I'd rather have all the silver shiny parts done in piano black or in the worst case carbon fiber. The front... why the hell did the front lights/grill loose the angled look from the concept car? We see it return in the GT500 though. God somone dropped the ball here. The production car could have been much closer to the concept car little to no changes in cost, etc. Come one Ford!!!!

Japan8

Ditto. Seriously. The only reason I passed up on mechanical engineering in college was because I had to admit that after advanced algebra and calculus in high school... I hate math and I'm not a math genius. Science... no prob. And I have been in love with cars since I was 2 or 3 years old. I work in IT (degrees in Politics and Japan studies ... speak, read and write Japanese fluently ) but would give it up at the drop of a hat for a job developing new cars or something similar in the auto industry. *sigh* One can dream can't they...

FlyingLeggs

A few things to address:
Those ragging the Camaro, past or potential future makes: I dare you not race any that have an 8 cyl. and are in decent condition. I was not a Camaro fan myself until my brother got a 94 Z28 a few years ago in excellent condition. Point being, don't pick a fight with a bully... the Z28 or SS will win.
I know so from many sibling vs. sibling, ego bashing races. (But he does love the way the RX8 handles, looks, and stops on a dime)
A second issue. I don't think that the Camaro is supposed to come back. I heard it is just rumors. It would be a great marketing ploy though.