Japan8

Like I said... I wouldn't get a Nav on ANY car. Don't want it, don't need it. So it's not included... for number 1. Number 2...honestly... I really don't care if the BMW is $15-20k cheaper. If I can afford to pay $45-50k for a car, then I will be at the point where I can happily pay $60-65k for a car. And if I am paying that kind of money for a car, I will buy what I like. I don't like the e90's enough for pay almost $50k for one. $35k? Yeah... that's a different story. I have a strong mental barrier against paying more than $40k for any car that is not a Porsche, Ferrari (obviously much much more), etc.

As far as the B7 RS4 vs e46 M3 CS ...

Top Gear RS4 review
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc78RszZmtI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPGTG6y0ajM

Top Gear M3 CS vs RS4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4Uzf1dtYmU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3BCUNARokY

"Uh, No doubt about it. It's bibically good. It really is."
"Uh, you're not forgetting, are you? That there is a new M3 coming, with a V8 engine?"
"No, I'm not. But that will have to come with a free moon to be better than this."

Doesn't look like the M3 is such a clear winner...

lesper4

iTrader: (3)

FOR SURE! I think the Audi A4 RS have more power then then new M3 as well (+30 hp?). then again it comes down to rareity. The Rx-8 is not as popular as other cars out there say the Z and the A4 RS is also not that popular compared the the M3.

playdoh43

420hp and 317lb ft of torque in the rs4 vs 415hp and at least that much torque in the M3... 5hp difference... except acceleration wise, the rs4 is qouted at 4.8 seconds to 60 due to it being 3950lb with no options, probably over 4000 with options . the 333hp E46 M3 already does 0-60 in 4.8 ... at at least 10 thousand bucks cheaper, the new M3 is expected to be much faster. its not really that big of a deal because people that buys these cars probably dont care about like .5 seconds as much as sports car fans. I like both cars, but i expect the E92 M3 to out perform the RS4 by a pretty big margin in just about every category.

playdoh43

um... you mean the E46 M3? E92 is still a few month away...
i dont think its a fair comparison vs the last gen M3...

if youre qouting 45-50k for a 335, then the RS4 should be adding 5k onto the RS4 too, so it should be 71-76k, not 60-65k. you are really trying hard to stretch the numbers there.. why are you qouting numbers thats below the starting price lol? its more like 25k+ difference comparatively equipted, even if its just 20k, Its still a lot of money. i personally dont think most people that can afford a 50k car can just say ohh well and go buy a 70k car instead. especially if you say, you dont need all the bells and whistles, then its even easier to just compare 40k vs 66k, thats definetly a 26k difference, not 15-20k as your super stretchy math indicate :p

Japan8

The e46 M3 (which I do love dearly and wish I owned) get it's *** handed to it by the RS4 in a drag (see the videos). AWD launch helps a lot. And having AWD is good for those who live up north... and I may end up as one of them.

playdoh43

thats not the case at all, yes AWD gives it huge traction advantage, but being 4000+lbs is also a huge disadvantage, if you look at the offical numbers, or mag numbers, they both have identical 0-60 and 1/4 mile numbers at 4.8 and 13.3, and again thats the old M3, the new one is comingout soon. comparing the new RS4 vs the old M3 is just not a fair comparison

playdoh43

the E36 M3 is OLD with only 240hp, of course the RS4 would kill it? thats 2 generations ago in the mid to late 1990s...

Japan8

Why? You have to add sports suspension to the BMW and pay almost $500 extra for metalic paint. I don't need or want any options on the Audi. That's fair, because that's what I'd buy.

Quoting what numbers below the starting price? Don't be an ***. $45k + 20k = $65k and the starting is $66k... I think we are grown up enough to call that close enough.

And whatever about other people. I am talking about me and even stated that CLEARLY. I don't buy $50k cars and if/when that day comes, it'll be when I can afford $70k cars. And most importantly... I just don't find the e90 BMW nice enough for the money. Yeah yeah... 0-60. If that was it, I'd just get a Evo or STi. I don't care much for the styling, especially on the inside. I just plain and simply like the Audi better. My personal opinion. You aren't going to change that by saying whatever. I just don't like the e90.


And while I do like the e46... as highly acclaimed as it is... I didn't find it all that amazing when I drove one hard at a BMW event. maybe it was because I drove the 540 first... but it didn't impress me as much as I had expected. The 540 was awesome though.

Japan8

OH for Christ's sake! Get you head out of your ***. You KNOW it's a damn typo... we are talking about the e46 and e90 3 Series BMW and the B7 Audi RS4.

playdoh43

?? being an ***? im respectfully arguing with you? please refrain from name calling. but its up to you.

i dont understand what youre talking about? you are streching it by adding options onto the bmw while not having any option on the rs4.. judging by you being all about not having bells and wistles, yet you must have metalic paint... ok.. i mean you can add whatever options you want to make your numbers work for you. great.

and I wasnt refering directly about you being able to afford 50k car vs 70k car, im speaking in general for most people. Ive mentioned that in my post, so i dont know what the problem is? did i say you can afford 50k car but cant affor 70k car?
for general comparison thats what base msrp is for, so i see it as very fair to compare that.

but for comparisons sake, i dont even want to play the strech the numbers game with you. whatever you say, all i mean is 20k is a lot of money even for people in that price range. I can afford a 50k car right now with my salary if im dumb enough to do that, but i sure cant afford a 70k car, or even 66k car. but hey if you can be in that situation then more power to you. as for most people 20k is not a little bit of money. if 20k is not a lot of money, then why is 30k or 40k a lot of money? hey, why not just go up a little bit and get a 100k car? i was just making a comment about 20k as "go up a little bit"

playdoh43

??? um... I read what I read how am i supposed to know its a typo? i already said E46 M3 and RS4 has similar performance, so to me i assumed you were talking about E36? yet you are again insulting me.

Chris_Bangle

iTrader: (2)

part of your discussion (although I just briefly skimmed through it) illustrates the problem with the North American approach to cars. Too much preoccupation with bloody numbers, not enough with feel/communication heart and soul.

playdoh43

i just think the way you are stretching you numbers and making your comparisons is really unfair. comparion the new RS4 vs the current M3 is not very fair. calling the RS4 a 60-65k car is also not fair, considering it starts at 66k... ok, maybe youre just off by 1k with the 65 figure, but what about the 60k part? thats well below the starting price of the RS4? i think you are really streching the numbers, adding money onto the 335 and subtracting money off the base msrp of the rs4 to make your argument more favorable.

playdoh43

as far as feel goes, imo bmw has audi beat. whether youre comparing regular 3 series vs the A4 or the M series vs the RS. but thats just my personal oppinion. and i believe its also back by most of the media and magazines.

Japan8

No, it's not.

When you are being pedantic, it's what people generally would say.

It is obvious when the entire conversation has been about the e46 M3 and e90 335 (which offer similar performance) vs B7 RS4 that the sudden entry of "e36" is a typo. And something that most people would confirm before making further comments based upon a mistaken assumption.

You are again being pedantic. Does it make you feel more right, smarter or somehow superior?

You even say it yourself..."I can afford a 50k car right now with my salary if im dumb enough to do that..." That is the point. When you aren't having to stretch at all to afford a $50k car. When it's like buying a $20 or $25k car to you... then the jump isn't such an issue. Something akin to diminishing returns. Paying $10 for something that you could get for $5 is bigger deal than paying $1000 for something that could be $995. FOR ME... when I can comfortably afford a $50k car, it wouldn't be such a stretch to buy a $66k-70k car. $100k car is a ridiculously bigger jump... to even try to use it as a hyperbole is meaningless. You can get a small inground pool with screened porch and solar heating built in Central Florida for $25k. A freaking pool for $25k. And you're telling me that $20k extra for a car that you really like vs a car that is only O K is too much money?!

If you want to talk about most people, then all the performance stuff and whatnot is pointless. They'll buy the BMW for the AT and prestige of having the white and blue propeller on their hood... so they'll only pay what they must to get into the club. Nothing more.

Lastly... who was ever streching anything with price? You just want to add the only available option to the Audi just to make your point about the numbers see more obvious when it isn't. The "premium package" doesn't affect performance and is really just junk I'd never want...
Bose Premium Sound System with AudioPilot
Audi Navigation plus
HomeLink
Auto-dimming Exterior Mirrors
Auto-dimming Interior Mirror with Compass
Memory for Driver Side Seat Adjustment and Mirror Positions
Rain and Light Sensor with "Coming Home"
Bluetooth Phone Preparation
Sirius Satellite Radio
Glove Box 6-Disc CD Changer
Heated Rear Seats
Power Rear and Manual Rear Side Sunshades

On the other hand, the sports package for the BMW is needed. And getting charged almost $500 for paint....

Japan8

I'll give you the $60k part. I was off with the inital numbers. However, since I looked it up to be sure, I have consistently referred to it as $66k and the BMW as $45k. And yes I agreed and have admited that there is a gap in pricing between the two.

I like the Audi better, you like the BMW. For me the difference is worth the money and for you it's not. To each his own.

Ike

The RX-8 is still faster since it makes peak horsepower at 8500rpms. The M3 and RS4 aren't as fast because they can't even rev that high, DUH!

playdoh43

you made a typo and I took your word for it, and even explained why I took your word for it. yet you put the fualt on me... we were talking about M3, how am i supposed to know if it can only be limited to the E46? espeically when the E46 M3 and the RS4 has very similar 0-60 and 1/4 mile times, yet you said it gets crushed by the RS4, so by all means I thought you are talking about the E36. you are blaming me even though you made the mistake... great...


if one dont have to stretch it at all to buy a 50k car, then how do you know one cant strech it and buy a 100k car? you seem to deem that a 25k jump seems to be "just a bit more" yet a 30k, 40k jump is not? for you maybe, but there are people where a 100k stretch is not that rediculous. I was not talking about you, i was talking about in general. the income of the targeted audience of a 335 is very different from the income of the targeted buyers of an RS4. you are your own case... im really happy for you that you can easily stretch and buy a 70k car

and for your 2nd part you are using your self again, when i already mentioned that im speaking of in general. just because the sports packadge and metalic paint is a must for you dosnt mean its the case for others... I was talking about in general...
you must have the sports packadge and metalic paint, more power to you?

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

damn it Ike - 9000 rpm redline - how dare you rob us of 500rpm !!!!

playdoh43

actually you have not been consistently refering to the BMW as 45k, and you refered the rs4 as 60-65k car while acknowledging the msrp starts at 66k. so you have not been consistent.

Japan8

Don't try and make yourself out to be the injured party here. You jumped to make a quick reply, and I didn't notice the typo until after it was posted. You could have given me the benefit of the doubt, but it didn't make your arguement look as good.

The RS4 doesn't "crush" the M3 like it would... say... a RX-8 , but it is a bit faster and AWD will give it better launches. Yeah... the extra horsepower helps and yeah it is a bit heavier... but all reviews say it sure as hell doesn't feel like that (overweight), nor does it lack in response... a significant improvement over past models.

You still miss the point. and if by now you can't get it... either I can't explain it so you can, or you just don't get it. The second seems plausible since you entirely miss the fact that I never said I could afford it... that if I was ever to spend that much money on a car ($45k) it would be when at a time when I could afford to spend more ($66k). The common man's notion of afford doesn't mean alot when he holds an insane amount of debt. So it doesn't mean when the common person would try to afford $45k... $45k is a lot to spend on a car, so I wouldn't... not unless I could afford it easily (to repeat myself). Affording it easily means to me that $66k worth of car wouldn't be a huge stretch to afford.

Yep. The RS4 is targeted at a different audience. The M3 audience... which is closer in price. The target audience of the Mazdaspeed3 and Mazdaspeed6 are different... same for the Evo and RX-8... but that doesn't stop people from cross-shopping them. This was about the e92 335, so that is what is mostly being discussed. Good performance, so so looking package, pass on the interior and price... for an "ordinary" 3 Series. $45k for a M3 different story. The S4 is closer in price, but it's no RS4. The Lexus IS350 is nice enough... too bad it's only automatic and drives like a Lexus. I'd rather wait, save and get what I like than settle for something less.

The car only comes in 3 colors standard... red, white and black. Sorry, metallic paint isn't about my taste, that's about everyone. The sports package? We ARE talking about the performance of the two cars, aren't we? So sports package is a must. The Audi premium package is mostly junk... audio upgrade, nav, satellite radio (Hell NO!), heated rear seats (?!) and junk like that. Some of which the BMW doesn't have. Since you can't go ala carte, the only other choice is to dump it all.

Japan8

And those were? Oh yeah... the first couple response to this thread. Oh damn... isn't that what I said? I corrected the number to $45k after I looked it up on BMW's site. The same for the RS4... and neither number was that far from the actual price either.

#1... first response to the thread
#2... who said it IS $50k... it says almost. Fully loaded it's $50k (and most of those options are needed to match the RS4's premium package).
#3... where does it say that the e90/e92 is $50k? It was a general statement about ALL cars.

I repeat...do you enjoy being pedantic?

playdoh43

you said you consistently refered it as 45k all i did was tell you that you have not been consistent, youve listed varying prices. the action of you correcting your prices in the later posts means you have not been consistent. you claimed that youve been consistnently refering it as 45k... not me

playdoh43

dude, I TOOK YOUR WORD FOR IT BECAUSE IT MADE SENSE TO ME, if i thought thats what you meant, what the hell are you talking about with this benefit of the doubt? you are assuming that I KNEW it was a typo when I repeatedly have said that I didnt. get over it

Japan8

Me get over it? You get over it!

I can understand the reason you put forward, but you still have to admit that mentioning the e36 in the middle of the discussion would have been totally left field... especially since it is OBVIOUSLY outclassed as it is a pretty old car. That's why it should have seemed odd to you... "taking it at face value" sounds more like a cop out.

No. I said that after I looked it up and found the correct pricing, I consistently referred to it as $45k.

And now that I've had a second look... fully loaded it IS $50k. Yes, I know... $65k ($66k) for the RS4 is without the only option available, and you're going to say that it's not a fair comparison, etc. I'm just saying that the car can also cost $50k... just like the RS4 can cost $70k. Either number... still $20k difference.

Look. Just admit it. You got all bent out of shape because you love BMW's and really like the e92 335i, and I said I don't like them and prefer the RS4. So you feel the need to defend the car.