Best Driver's Car
09-11-2011, 11:17 AM
#27
I'm not saying the corvette is a better car than the Ferrari. I'm just saying I want the corvette to win 'the best driver's car' award. The fact that it outperforms cars 3 or 4 times it's price is nothing short of amazing and it's a car that I can actually afford whereas the Ferrari isn't. I love Ferrari's and the F430 is, imo, one of the best looking cars ever made, but the 458 isn't, I think it's kinda ugly, but it's still an amazing machine. And for those of you who say the corvette can't handle and is only good for going fast in a straight line, that is complete bs, the fact that it beats the 458 around the 'ring shows that.
Last edited by Chad D.; 09-11-2011 at 11:23 AM.
09-11-2011, 11:28 AM
#28
I'm not saying the corvette is a better car than the Ferrari. I'm just saying I want the corvette to win 'the best driver's car' award. The fact that it outperforms cars 3 or 4 times it's price is nothing short of amazing and it's a car that I can actually afford whereas the Ferrari isn't. I love Ferrari's and the F430 is, imo, one of the best looking cars ever made, but the 458 isn't, I think it's kinda ugly, but it's still an amazing machine. And for those of you who say the corvette can't handle and is only good for going fast in a straight line, that is complete bs, the fact that it beats the 458 around the 'ring shows that.
just like how Porsche was crying all over when Nissan said their GT-R is faster. Porsche said there is no way, even with their "professional driver," can archive the time Nissan claim. but guess what, Nissan shown them the video of how they did it, Porsche shut their mouth right away.
Does that mean Porsche's driver is not as good as Nissan? properly, but the Nissan's driver might have a better understand of the GT-R than the Porsche's driver, he was part of the design team so I'm sure he knows better.
Personal opinion is another thing, you like Vette better? That's good. just like how we like our 8. lots of people call it the most piece of **** car ever but is it really? most of those people never sit in one, have a Civic with 200 horse and call 232 hp engine "weak", nor they have the skills to make it fast.
for me, I would prefer a GT-R, it's potential is really high, even when it's @ stock it outperforms most of the cars on the road.
I never had a chance to sit inside the 458, I'm sure it's an amazing machine. not my style tho, even if I can Afford it.
Last edited by nycgps; 09-11-2011 at 11:34 AM.
09-11-2011, 12:06 PM
#29
Strength/Confidence
Thread Starter
09-11-2011, 12:40 PM
#30
Your bias is so apparent, it's not even funny. Since it is a matter of fact, please show me your definitive proof that americans are unable to make cars. I expect this to be proven throughout all of history, because your argument is invalid unless you are able to do so.
5 seconds on what track? I looked at some lap times earlier and it was typically a maximum of 2-3 second difference on 2 minute tracks. That's still significant, but not nearly as significant as the $130,000 price differential (assuming the vette is fully loaded).
Your argument is so ridiculous. You want to compare engine displacement while completely ignoring the pricing? The base price of a Z06 is $75,000. Just because the engine size is similar doesn't mean that the $75,000 car should be compared to a car that starts over $300,000. Show me what Ferrari can manage in a $100,000 car. I wouldn't be so confident that it would be as impressive as the Z06. You apparently don't know how to compare cars. You don't compare based on where the car falls in the company's lineup, you compare based on pricing and performance. The RX-8 is arguably Mazda's top model... that doesn't mean it should be expected to compare to Porsche's top model or Ferrari's top model. The fact of the matter is, it is not a stretch of the imagination to compare the Z06 and the 458, despite the $130k price difference. If you don't find that even a little impressive, then your views are too skewed to be relevant.
Btw, take a look at the ZR1... It's only $110,000 and closes the lap time difference on some tracks and even performs better than the 458 on a few. Even if we assume a 1 second lap time difference, that's not a $110,000 difference.
5 seconds on what track? I looked at some lap times earlier and it was typically a maximum of 2-3 second difference on 2 minute tracks. That's still significant, but not nearly as significant as the $130,000 price differential (assuming the vette is fully loaded).
Your argument is so ridiculous. You want to compare engine displacement while completely ignoring the pricing? The base price of a Z06 is $75,000. Just because the engine size is similar doesn't mean that the $75,000 car should be compared to a car that starts over $300,000. Show me what Ferrari can manage in a $100,000 car. I wouldn't be so confident that it would be as impressive as the Z06. You apparently don't know how to compare cars. You don't compare based on where the car falls in the company's lineup, you compare based on pricing and performance. The RX-8 is arguably Mazda's top model... that doesn't mean it should be expected to compare to Porsche's top model or Ferrari's top model. The fact of the matter is, it is not a stretch of the imagination to compare the Z06 and the 458, despite the $130k price difference. If you don't find that even a little impressive, then your views are too skewed to be relevant.
Btw, take a look at the ZR1... It's only $110,000 and closes the lap time difference on some tracks and even performs better than the 458 on a few. Even if we assume a 1 second lap time difference, that's not a $110,000 difference.
The price is the only advantage the vette has, really. Performance is expensive though, the 'vette has the same suspension system of a 1970 fiat 500!
Americans building cars... When you had the 1978 stingray 'vette we were rolling on nice porsches or a 512bb. Mustang? Maserati biturbo, alfa etc.
It's not your fault though, blame the boring highways... we have the alps and country roads everywhere in europe. We took driving differently from the beginning.
09-11-2011, 12:52 PM
#31
meh.
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if i could only have one car for the rest of my life, it would be a 69 stingray 427
this is hilarious, your bias is just as bad, if not worse, than the "americans" who only care about straightline speed.
youre preaching to the wrong crowd. obviously i know power isnt everything. look at my sig. my cars are slow and slower. theyre both designed to for handling. i know this. we all do, thats why we drive an rx8
but at the very least i can appreciate what the muscle cars do, and do well.
beauty is the eye of the beholder. this is a scenario of the pot calling the kettle black though.
we're obviously wrong for being sooo closed minded. while you are the exact same way, on the opposite end of the spectrum
this is hilarious, your bias is just as bad, if not worse, than the "americans" who only care about straightline speed.
youre preaching to the wrong crowd. obviously i know power isnt everything. look at my sig. my cars are slow and slower. theyre both designed to for handling. i know this. we all do, thats why we drive an rx8
but at the very least i can appreciate what the muscle cars do, and do well.
beauty is the eye of the beholder. this is a scenario of the pot calling the kettle black though.
we're obviously wrong for being sooo closed minded. while you are the exact same way, on the opposite end of the spectrum
09-11-2011, 01:02 PM
#32
You're right deadphoenix, i can't appreciate muscle cars. I track my cars and i don't live in the states. Even our highways are twisty!
The '78 vette is one of my favorite cars but still doesn't handle as her contemporary european cars. If we're talking about performance then it's a moot point, feeling is a subjective thing.
The only real driver's car on the planet, right now, is the caterham.
The '78 vette is one of my favorite cars but still doesn't handle as her contemporary european cars. If we're talking about performance then it's a moot point, feeling is a subjective thing.
The only real driver's car on the planet, right now, is the caterham.
09-11-2011, 01:55 PM
#33
meh.
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You're right deadphoenix, i can't appreciate muscle cars. I track my cars and i don't live in the states. Even our highways are twisty!
The '78 vette is one of my favorite cars but still doesn't handle as her contemporary european cars. If we're talking about performance then it's a moot point, feeling is a subjective thing.
The only real driver's car on the planet, right now, is the caterham.
The '78 vette is one of my favorite cars but still doesn't handle as her contemporary european cars. If we're talking about performance then it's a moot point, feeling is a subjective thing.
The only real driver's car on the planet, right now, is the caterham.
09-11-2011, 01:59 PM
#34
That's right, i wanted to sound harsh just to bring our passionate selves out with our emotions
I price is a concern then the vette and the gt-r are perfect contenders in that given price-range. The problem is that performance, per FIA regulations etc, is mostly dictated by displacement. That's why I say that price is "irrelevant", the real challenge is making the most out of an X displacement engine in Y chassis.
The heritage aspect is also interesting as where we drive influenced and influences development. That's why we focus on relatively small powerful engines (NA mostly) in good chassis while you don't have displacement issues and the chassis design is somehow less relevant in a straight line.
The Japanese and their twisty mountains brought up some real nice turbo engines, along with some pure track monsters like the NSX.
I price is a concern then the vette and the gt-r are perfect contenders in that given price-range. The problem is that performance, per FIA regulations etc, is mostly dictated by displacement. That's why I say that price is "irrelevant", the real challenge is making the most out of an X displacement engine in Y chassis.
The heritage aspect is also interesting as where we drive influenced and influences development. That's why we focus on relatively small powerful engines (NA mostly) in good chassis while you don't have displacement issues and the chassis design is somehow less relevant in a straight line.
The Japanese and their twisty mountains brought up some real nice turbo engines, along with some pure track monsters like the NSX.
09-11-2011, 03:52 PM
#35
Americans building cars... When you had the 1978 stingray 'vette we were rolling on nice porsches or a 512bb. Mustang? Maserati biturbo, alfa etc.
It's not your fault though, blame the boring highways... we have the alps and country roads everywhere in europe. We took driving differently from the beginning.
It's not your fault though, blame the boring highways... we have the alps and country roads everywhere in europe. We took driving differently from the beginning.
I'd also say it was kind of a time period element. I think the muscle car spirit was a great at the time and the concept worked. As time went on, I think the gap between power and handling oriented cars closed. We started seeing a lot of cars with great handling that also had some power to back it up. I don't think the power focused cars really moved towards the middle, so their handling capabilities were still restricted. As time goes on, I think the market for a car that only offers power as a strong feature is growing smaller. That's why we've seen cars like the current vette and the 5.0 mustang that are actually competing with cars well beyond their price range in terms of track performance. Sure, you can point out flaws in their designs or why they fall short of the cars they're compared to, but the fact that they're being compared to those cars is the impressive part. For the price, you wouldn't expect them to compare.
09-11-2011, 07:05 PM
#36
Registered
Of course it's subjective. Everybody's definition is different. I thought that's what we came here to discuss.
There definitely will be some overlap (common denominator) qualities of a driver's car, but it's more interesting to focus on differences, such as how you, deadphoenix52, would rather remove all tech to establish purity. I still like my synchros and helical gears. I don't want to double-clutch no matter how "at-one" I want to feel with the car. I also like my logic-based power steering and brakes.
bse50, being a fellow driving enthusiast, I thought you would be more open to the unique qualities that make American sports cars what they are. I like your passion in singing praises for European sports cars, but putting down American sports cars without a deep understanding of them, is disappointing.
I used to be like that. I used to think American sporty cars had nothing to offer me. Then I started to learn about their heritage and how intertwined their history is with the European motorsports in many ways made aware by returning servicemen, giving rise to people like Shelby who used the British AC frame to stuff a massive American V8 and demolish competition in races.
I encourage you to take a Mustang or Corvette for a spin. If you expect them to give the same experience as an Italian screamer, you'll definitely be disappointed, so try to focus on what they are. One stomp on the throttle and the resulting roar was all it took to win me over.
There definitely will be some overlap (common denominator) qualities of a driver's car, but it's more interesting to focus on differences, such as how you, deadphoenix52, would rather remove all tech to establish purity. I still like my synchros and helical gears. I don't want to double-clutch no matter how "at-one" I want to feel with the car. I also like my logic-based power steering and brakes.
bse50, being a fellow driving enthusiast, I thought you would be more open to the unique qualities that make American sports cars what they are. I like your passion in singing praises for European sports cars, but putting down American sports cars without a deep understanding of them, is disappointing.
I used to be like that. I used to think American sporty cars had nothing to offer me. Then I started to learn about their heritage and how intertwined their history is with the European motorsports in many ways made aware by returning servicemen, giving rise to people like Shelby who used the British AC frame to stuff a massive American V8 and demolish competition in races.
I encourage you to take a Mustang or Corvette for a spin. If you expect them to give the same experience as an Italian screamer, you'll definitely be disappointed, so try to focus on what they are. One stomp on the throttle and the resulting roar was all it took to win me over.
Last edited by dynamho; 09-11-2011 at 07:07 PM.
09-12-2011, 01:41 AM
#38
bse50, being a fellow driving enthusiast, I thought you would be more open to the unique qualities that make American sports cars what they are. I like your passion in singing praises for European sports cars, but putting down American sports cars without a deep understanding of them, is disappointing.
I used to be like that. I used to think American sporty cars had nothing to offer me. Then I started to learn about their heritage and how intertwined their history is with the European motorsports in many ways made aware by returning servicemen, giving rise to people like Shelby who used the British AC frame to stuff a massive American V8 and demolish competition in races.
I encourage you to take a Mustang or Corvette for a spin. If you expect them to give the same experience as an Italian screamer, you'll definitely be disappointed, so try to focus on what they are. One stomp on the throttle and the resulting roar was all it took to win me over.
I used to be like that. I used to think American sporty cars had nothing to offer me. Then I started to learn about their heritage and how intertwined their history is with the European motorsports in many ways made aware by returning servicemen, giving rise to people like Shelby who used the British AC frame to stuff a massive American V8 and demolish competition in races.
I encourage you to take a Mustang or Corvette for a spin. If you expect them to give the same experience as an Italian screamer, you'll definitely be disappointed, so try to focus on what they are. One stomp on the throttle and the resulting roar was all it took to win me over.
I drove a c6 z06 and a mustang gt500 actually, that's why I know that I wouldn't spend money on either of the two. The raw power is great fun but I have a turn every 100m everywhere i go
A vintage one? sure! They definitely have a reason to exist.
A note to all, take a spin in a m3 e30 if you have the time. Sex on wheels. I'd probably take it over almost any other car ever produced.
09-12-2011, 10:15 AM
#39
my 2 cents, Mr. Pobst had some problem managing at 100% the 458 italia, it's very difficult to push it to the limit, the Vette is easier IMHO.
for the "fun to drive factor" driving a screaming Ferrari is one of the most comprehensive driving experience that a car nut can have....a Vette (like a Porsche) can't compete (sorry guys)
i agree that the prices are completely different, a 458 is a toy for real rich people....sadly....Vette is a car a lot less expensive and a real "bang for bucks"....
for the "fun to drive factor" driving a screaming Ferrari is one of the most comprehensive driving experience that a car nut can have....a Vette (like a Porsche) can't compete (sorry guys)
i agree that the prices are completely different, a 458 is a toy for real rich people....sadly....Vette is a car a lot less expensive and a real "bang for bucks"....
09-12-2011, 08:06 PM
#40
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Randy Pobst had a lot to say about each of the cars, but I'm not surprised to see the Ferrari came out on top. In race mode with a skilled driver behind the wheel the car was designed from the ground up as a virtuoso's instrument for driving. If money were absolutely no object, who here would really turn it down? The Z06 is a sledgehammer that takes a lot of skill to control, and there is no question the car can turn quick lap times. I've been on track with a lot of them, and they are quick, especially with some modifications. However, for my money out of the cars tested I would have a GT-R without a second look back. It's powerful, beautiful, and responds well to modification. It has the "bang for the buck" factor too.
I'll be honest though... out of the cars tested, I still wouldn't take them over my Evo. Light weight, stupid power, manual gearbox, no traction control or drivers aids... its the drivers car for me.
GT-R is close, but too heavy, too many computers, and paddle shifters. If I stuff my Evo into a wall, I'll probably get a GT-R next though.
I'll be honest though... out of the cars tested, I still wouldn't take them over my Evo. Light weight, stupid power, manual gearbox, no traction control or drivers aids... its the drivers car for me.
GT-R is close, but too heavy, too many computers, and paddle shifters. If I stuff my Evo into a wall, I'll probably get a GT-R next though.
09-12-2011, 11:26 PM
#43
Registered
09-13-2011, 05:08 AM
#44
Super Moderator
Any AUTO is not a Drivers Car...period.
09-13-2011, 05:59 AM
#46
Super Moderator
What is not??..in fact..??
09-13-2011, 06:05 AM
#47
The 458's transmission, I'm not sure about the other paddle shifters listed there.
It's basically a manual with electronic actuators instead of a clutch pedal and a shifter. The technology behind that type of transmission is awesome, i was hesitant too at first but i'm totally in its favor now!
It's basically a manual with electronic actuators instead of a clutch pedal and a shifter. The technology behind that type of transmission is awesome, i was hesitant too at first but i'm totally in its favor now!
09-13-2011, 06:18 AM
#48
Super Moderator
Each to their own....I was referring to any "drivers car"..
Personally I don't care what make of car, driving is part of putting your foot on a clutch pedal and a stick with your hand and changing gears....that is what a drivers car is.
Not flappy paddles on any steering wheel..
Not only more complicated, but expensive to make and sell and moreover repair.
Bah and Humbug!..I will NEVER be convinced.
Personally I don't care what make of car, driving is part of putting your foot on a clutch pedal and a stick with your hand and changing gears....that is what a drivers car is.
Not flappy paddles on any steering wheel..
Not only more complicated, but expensive to make and sell and moreover repair.
Bah and Humbug!..I will NEVER be convinced.
09-13-2011, 06:51 AM
#49
I agree on the price part. The problem is that we're used to mediocre cars like the rx8. A manual shifter is still feasable but top supercars can't be driven to the same level without paddles. Keeping the hands on the steering wheel becomes a must
09-13-2011, 09:14 AM
#50
Registered
Sarcastically: A real driver's car should not have tech. This means, it will have no synchros and no clutch. Driver will need to rev match perfectly using throttle and engage dogteeth. Driver will need a handcrank to start the car. Driver will need to work on pects and lats because power steering numbs the experience. Boosted braking is also not an option. Driver needs to work on squats consequently.