nycgps

iTrader: (1)

rofl, does that mean instead of going to the gym, we just gotta drive "such" car everyday and It will have the same effect if not better ?

bse50

We must cancel our orders for the next batch of client f150 Italia!
They have an electronic differential, electro-hydraulic clutch, power steering and extensive electronics

Roidz

I agree Ash. I would rather row the gears myself and work a clutch. I would give up a little performance and be able to shift myself rather than use paddle shifters. If you're going for a racetrack record I could see using the paddle shifters as it will usually give you an advantage, but for everyday driving or a weekend car I'd rather shift myself.

deadphoenix52

/thread

Roidz

But kudos to the Ferrari. Obviously a very nice car and from the sounds of it one of the best cars the driver had ever driven. Too bad I'll never drive one.

Roidz

Ahhh ****. Can't get much better than that for a 'driver's car.' Lots of driver involvement there with the whole powered by the driver's feet thing.

dynamho

Yes, that's the one. That's what I'm talking about.
Petition Motor Trend to reconsider.

deadphoenix52

i never said a drivers car should have any tech lol. certainly some is necessary. im speaking electronics. gear synchros are mechanical devices. as is a clutch etc etc. and i know that was all a joke but im making a point. its when electronics begin to take over driver control, such as ABS and traction control. its at the point when electronics can correct driver error that i believe they are unneccesary. it should soley be the resposibility of the driver to keep the car pointed in the right direction.

but with the power output of many of todays cars, theyre undriveable without it. certainly the technology is incredible, and without a doubt the fastest way around a track. but its not for me

dynamho

deadphoenix, I wasn't making fun of the photo. I knew you were having fun with it and I wanted to join in on the fun.

BTW, what you said here is key:
I think this is what differentiates GT-R from the Ferrari. GT-R can turn average drivers into super drivers. As for the Ferrari, there's a reason why rich people crash them all the time.

A driver's car should do exactly as you will it to do as instantly as possible. There should be no INTERPRETATION of your will.

blackenedwings

USDM Evo's do not have AYC. Also, AYC is not traction control, all it does is determine power split to right/left sides of the car. It's a differential that instead of having a set mechanical rate of split uses a computer setting to adjust the split. USDM Evo's don't have it, instead using a mechanical (and incorrectly set up) diff instead. A common modification on raced USDM Evo's is swapping the order of the diff plates to induce more oversteer allowing the car to rotate. Evo's do not have any drivers aids or traction control, but they do have an active center diff (ACD) that controls power split to front/rear. The ratio can also be changed by the driver for different driving surfaces (tarmac/gravel/snow) to increase front/rear bias.

For the question about car payments, its sort of true... if I could have the Ferrari 458 for free, I wouldn't turn it down. I would probably sell it and build a monster Evo/pay off my house. When I bought my Evo I seriously looked at getting a GT-R or Z06, they are both nice cars, but I love high revving turbo motors and the GT-R was a lot of investment and I would feel bad about gutting it and putting in a roll cage.

bse50

You're right! Error-correcting electronics shouldn't be allowed, lol.
However there's a bunch of electronic stuff that really enhances the grip level without making up for the driver's mistakes.
Think about electronic differentials and magnetorheological dampers: they both enhance the lap time without substituting the driver's skills. It's pretty much the other way around: the driver has to have the guts to take advantage of such components.
ABS is controversial, it is fundamental in emergency situations but detrimental on a dry track. Add some water and your lap times will be better with it no matter who you are. Most of us can keep a car straight when braking but what happens when you have different water levels on each side? dryer\wetter lines? In that case it really helps.

As I said supercars should be supercars, not fast cars with ages old technology (see the 'vette that still had pushrod engines not long ago, leafsprings etc)... that stuff doesn't make your experience "better", it just makes you slower. That's also why they are cheaper. Less development and budget chassis design.
If what you're after is the "feeling" get a caterham, a westfield XI or something along the line (or an older supercar).

dynamho

Didn't know that USDM versions differed in that respect for the gen you have. I'm guessing you're referring to the rear diff regarding the plate swap mod, no?

I'm not sure if the Evo you have has an open front diff or some torque sensing type for pulling out of corners, but I'm guessing it needs to be closer in behavior to an open diff for sharper turn in?

OK. Sorry for threadjack. Just curious.

MattMPS

quote 100%. manettino is a WARN for drivers, it means: "don't use "Race" or "OFF" position unless you're a higly skilled driver"

personally i know a owner of both 430 (before) and 458 (now) that admit that never used top manettino positions (trackdays included).

"i dont' want turn a fun day into a nightmare, 1 or 2 second more for lap don't make the difference in fun-factor"

without helps 458 is a REAL PRO Car......

blackenedwings

Yeah, the Evo X (newest gen) does have AYC etc. Most Evo fans hate the X. It's fat, heavy, underpowered, too focused on luxury and trying to compete with the euro market. The new aluminum block motor can't hold power and was intentionally installed backwards (exhaust manifold against the firewall) to improve emissions. Heavily modified it can be a competitive platform, but I personally don't like them.

The rear diff is the one modded by the plate swaps for Evo VIII/IX. It actually isn't a "mod" its just re-installing the plates in the order dictated by the Mitsubishi manual. They were intentionally put in wrong for the USDM cars to avoid noise which would result in warranty claims. The Japanese don't think too highly of the American market.

All this talk about the electronic aids etc... there are very few modern cars, especially in the "supercar" category that don't have significant electronic driver aids. For supercar status the car needs to be fast... twin-clutch paddle shifted cars with active differentials etc improve lap times considerably. Yes, it will make an inexperienced driver faster than trying to drive a car like the Z06 which has a pushrod motor, archaic suspension, and manual gearbox... but it doesn't mean they lose all connection to the car.

Honestly, if they wanted a real "driver's car" they should be looking at the Ariel Atom and the Caterham. I don't think any of the cars on the list (or any car I've ever driven) will put you in touch with the car and the road/track more than one of those cars. The first time I saw the Caterham go around the Top Gear test track I got goosebumps... watching that thing slither around kicking its rear out looked pretty close to driving heaven to me. The only negative to the Caterham to me is how goofy they look.

dynamho

Caterhams and Atoms are probably more like motorcycle on 4 wheels. Hahaha.
I'd love to try my hand at either.

Check this out. This mind blowing precision driving is what Caterham (or something like it) makes possible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqtoMDH0VEI

ASH8

What a load of crap..

bse50

Ask Ferrari to build a 3 pedal 458 (they will) and drive it around a track... do the same in the paddle shifter one. See the lap times and quote me again ASH!

Chad D.

iTrader: (19)

This guy drives a drivers car.

No need for electronic devices!


really though. Muscle cars are fun.

blackenedwings

Yup, paddle shifters and twin clutch transmissions are faster. Period. F1 cars have them for a reason... you don't see a team in F1 putting in the 3rd pedal, and they would if it could shave even a tiny bit of time off. The question for a lot of people who are "enthusiasts" not racers is if paddle shifters take away the "drivers car" element of a car. I'll be honest, I like driving on the track, and being competitive but I shy away from paddle shifters. Its one of the big reasons the GT-R turned me off when it was released. If you are a racer though, you worry about one thing... going faster. Once you get used to them, I can see how the old H-pattern boxes and 3rd pedal might feel archaic. It probably won't be all that long before they aren't offered at all any more.

deadphoenix52

i know thats what the 'lol' was for. guess it wasnt big enough. all caps wouldve been super more better

and bse i dont think anybody is arguing the fact that the technologies are superior in every way to older versions of the same. all i think the majority is saying is that, to most of us, the fastest laptime does not define a drivers car. case in point, the ferrari. it is a technical wonder and undoubtedly the fastest way around the track. theres satisfaction in making mistakes. knowing that you are the only thing keeping the car going. making the most out of the bare minimum.

being a machinist, its like making two identical parts, one on a CNC, the other on a manual lathe. there is sooo much more satisfaction in achieving the same level of precision by hand, turning ***** and dials, changing setting etc. that putting stock in a CNC and pushing go.

i see the ferrari as a CNC machine. its vastly superior in every way. and can achieve consistencies that someone operating an old school lathe will never achieving. but despite all the errors, operating a manual lathe is soo much more fun.

MrSinister

My vote is for the new nissan GTR. It is just something else all together. A mark for others to shoot for.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDP7P...layer_embedded

I don't like Drag race but ... MY CAR WON ! :D Italia come 2nd, where was Corvette again? oh yes, Somewhere behind :D

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

because when it comes to driving, most rich people are the same level as most of the drivers on the road ---- which means they can't drive for ****.

and when you give them a car with so much power, GT-R or not, Electronic or not. They will still crash them. Simply because ---- again, They can't drive for **** in the first place.

blackenedwings

^^^this. A lot of people have the wallet to drive but not the skill or experience.

The thing too that makes it harder with a lot of the high dollar cars and why a lot of people crash them is the incredible grip they have. Look at the GT-R for example... yes its very heavy, but the combination of extensive computers and ludicrous tires + AWD give it unbelievable grip. I've done a few track days with a built GT-R in one of my run groups, and he carries insane speed in the turns because the car will not lose grip. When it does finally let go through, you are generally going very, very fast and have no time to react to the surprise of no more grip. That's about where the inexperienced driver puts it into the wall.

Note: Video is of idiots street racing, but illustrates the point
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHZKiWIBXIY

I do have to say, out of the cars Motortrend tested... the GT-R tugs at me the most. I do want one of these.

Randy Pobst's lap of the GT-R:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY6z0...feature=relmfu

Edit: Ok, I lied... I watched his lap of the Ferrari... and I might sell a kidney to hear that sound every day. OMG that car sounds good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMRmLDZXRRI&NR=1

Roidz

[quote=nycgps;4077832I don't like Drag race but ... MY CAR WON ! :D Italia come 2nd, where was Corvette again? oh yes, Somewhere behind :D[/quote]

The Corvette was 6th (I know, you know where it ranked, but just sayin) out of Motortrend's opinion and perhaps rightfully so, I can't say since I've only driven one car out of the entire list, but hey, it was still #1 around the track as far as time goes.