Braking Trifecta aka Nismo 370Z
05-03-2010, 12:31 PM
#1
Momentum Keeps Me Going
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Braking Trifecta aka Nismo 370Z
In the Emperor's Clothes Dept - Latest June C&D has a cautionary tale of what happens when a non-too-rigorous motorsports and performance division of Nissan Motor Company, NISMO, produces a "performance vehicle" for the most part, in name only.
Worth a read as it's an excellent investigation with graphs and pictures in what went wrong, what were the causes, and what would keep it from happening again... maybe. It's something anyone contemplating tracking can learn from, regardless of their choice of car. Marketing is just that...marketing...let the buyer beware.
Crux of the story is the that the "NISMO performance version" of the 370Z was ultimately still designed as a 'boulevard sports' car and not even a little track worthy. The 'NISMO transformation' neglected the following (in the braking dept anyway)... 1) even in the NISMO version Nissan Sport Brakes are an optional extra. But even when upgraded Nissan still used organic melt-away brake pads...to provide "low noise and low dust"
, 2) neglect to provide adequate brake ventilation 
, and 3) use as an excuse (at least to C&D) that the car was not made to endure "race track situations" 
.
And as R&T found out in a spectacular, if fortunately non-life threatening 50 mph retaining wall crash....apparently not even good enough for a few hot laps, and I quote...
"And it's worth noting that we've never experienced such hellacious brake degredation in the history of our Lightening Laps."
Way to go Nissan!
Worth a read as it's an excellent investigation with graphs and pictures in what went wrong, what were the causes, and what would keep it from happening again... maybe. It's something anyone contemplating tracking can learn from, regardless of their choice of car. Marketing is just that...marketing...let the buyer beware.
Crux of the story is the that the "NISMO performance version" of the 370Z was ultimately still designed as a 'boulevard sports' car and not even a little track worthy. The 'NISMO transformation' neglected the following (in the braking dept anyway)... 1) even in the NISMO version Nissan Sport Brakes are an optional extra. But even when upgraded Nissan still used organic melt-away brake pads...to provide "low noise and low dust"
, 2) neglect to provide adequate brake ventilation , and 3) use as an excuse (at least to C&D) that the car was not made to endure "race track situations" . And as R&T found out in a spectacular, if fortunately non-life threatening 50 mph retaining wall crash....apparently not even good enough for a few hot laps, and I quote...
"And it's worth noting that we've never experienced such hellacious brake degredation in the history of our Lightening Laps."
Way to go Nissan!
05-03-2010, 03:33 PM
#4
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Um.... Replace the brake pads before track use?
Granted, they should not have degenerated to such a degree, but still, it seems logical to me to replace tires and brake pads before driving on a proper racing circuit.
IMO, there is no finer and faster sports car you can buy for under $30k than the 370z. Too bad it doesn't have a backseat.
Granted, they should not have degenerated to such a degree, but still, it seems logical to me to replace tires and brake pads before driving on a proper racing circuit.
IMO, there is no finer and faster sports car you can buy for under $30k than the 370z. Too bad it doesn't have a backseat.
05-03-2010, 04:19 PM
#6
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Thread Starter
^ It wasn't simply the pads...read the article.
They changed and upgraded the pads that Nissan decided to market after and BECAUSE of this accident (at ~$600 upgrade cost), upgraded the brake fluid due to boiling...then tested again, and STILL things were not right, and while improved, appears to require some as yet to be determined fix.
Beyond that lets be real...just how many cars have already been put through the exact same Lightening Lap without such problems? Lot's of them have...and so forgetting any upgrades for a moment, none has this degree of brake deficiency as tested.
Right....and decent brakes.
They changed and upgraded the pads that Nissan decided to market after and BECAUSE of this accident (at ~$600 upgrade cost), upgraded the brake fluid due to boiling...then tested again, and STILL things were not right, and while improved, appears to require some as yet to be determined fix.
Beyond that lets be real...just how many cars have already been put through the exact same Lightening Lap without such problems? Lot's of them have...and so forgetting any upgrades for a moment, none has this degree of brake deficiency as tested.
Originally Posted by Rosco350z
there is no finer and faster sports car you can buy for under $30k than the 370z. Too bad it doesn't have a backseat.
05-03-2010, 10:07 PM
#9
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I believe the article was released in this month's C&D.
I wouldn't knock any car company for not having a race ready production vehicle except in the cases of special "track" editions of the car. I would expect when buying a NISMO version of a Nissian Z car that it would be able to handle track conditions without the need for serious upgrades. The fact that upgraded pads and fluid still produced serious fade issues says a lot.
I'm not faulting the car as I've heard a lot of good things about the 370z but I think there needs to be a change in the marketing. If the car isn't able to handle track conditions then it shouldn't be a "track" version or special performance edition. NISMO isn't known for anything but performance.
Either way, at least we have publications holding manufacturers accountable for their claims.
I wouldn't knock any car company for not having a race ready production vehicle except in the cases of special "track" editions of the car. I would expect when buying a NISMO version of a Nissian Z car that it would be able to handle track conditions without the need for serious upgrades. The fact that upgraded pads and fluid still produced serious fade issues says a lot.
I'm not faulting the car as I've heard a lot of good things about the 370z but I think there needs to be a change in the marketing. If the car isn't able to handle track conditions then it shouldn't be a "track" version or special performance edition. NISMO isn't known for anything but performance.
Either way, at least we have publications holding manufacturers accountable for their claims.
05-04-2010, 12:52 AM
#11
Our brakes are INCREDIBLE. Lightness has a lot to do with it, too. I took the data from car and driver's list and sorted by 70mph to 0mph distances:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...digest-feature
RX-8 R3 places 13 out of 263 vehicles tested. Here are the top 20:
Vehicle Braking 70-0 mph, feet
Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 142
Nissan GT-R 145
Ferrari 599GTB Fiorano 148
Chevrolet Corvette Z06 149
Dodge Viper SRT10 ACR 149
Porsche 911 GT3 RS 149
Chevrolet Corvette Z06 150
Dodge Viper SRT10 150
Lamborghini Gallardo Superleggera 150
Lamborghini Murciélago LP640 Roadster 150
Ferrari F430 Spider F1 151
Chevrolet Corvette Z51 152
Ferrari 599GTB Fiorano 152
Mazda RX-8 R3 8-Dec 152
Mercedes-Benz SL65 AMG Black Series 152
Honda S2000 CR 153
Lamborghini Gallardo Spyder 153
Mini Cooper Works Clubman 153
Lightness, tires, and chassis. I'm VERY confident that with my good summer road tires, I can out-brake pretty much anything (street-legal) out there.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...digest-feature
RX-8 R3 places 13 out of 263 vehicles tested. Here are the top 20:
Vehicle Braking 70-0 mph, feet
Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 142
Nissan GT-R 145
Ferrari 599GTB Fiorano 148
Chevrolet Corvette Z06 149
Dodge Viper SRT10 ACR 149
Porsche 911 GT3 RS 149
Chevrolet Corvette Z06 150
Dodge Viper SRT10 150
Lamborghini Gallardo Superleggera 150
Lamborghini Murciélago LP640 Roadster 150
Ferrari F430 Spider F1 151
Chevrolet Corvette Z51 152
Ferrari 599GTB Fiorano 152
Mazda RX-8 R3 8-Dec 152
Mercedes-Benz SL65 AMG Black Series 152
Honda S2000 CR 153
Lamborghini Gallardo Spyder 153
Mini Cooper Works Clubman 153
Lightness, tires, and chassis. I'm VERY confident that with my good summer road tires, I can out-brake pretty much anything (street-legal) out there.
05-04-2010, 02:08 AM
#12
The issue wasn't this bad with the 350z, was it? If not, then it only makes sense for the faster car to have better braking ability.
Most people will recommend (on forums) that you be sure to upgrade brakes, tires, suspension etc before you do any serious power increases. I would hope that a company that makes money off of producing cars would have that basic concept down as well.
Most people will recommend (on forums) that you be sure to upgrade brakes, tires, suspension etc before you do any serious power increases. I would hope that a company that makes money off of producing cars would have that basic concept down as well.
05-04-2010, 07:46 AM
#14
05-04-2010, 08:25 AM
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Kudos to Car and Driver, despite so many haters, for investigating into this issue. I'd imagine new brake fluid will be used in all of the 370z lineup, and better brake pads, albeit squeakier for the Nismo version. Doubt they will drill brake cooling vents on any of the models though, but the brake fluid seems like the culprit for sudden depletion of the brakes.
Now if a RX-8's clutch pedal snaps during one of their drives, then Mazda will have to address it. Quick, someone donate their squeaky clutch pedaled RX-8 to C&D!
Now if a RX-8's clutch pedal snaps during one of their drives, then Mazda will have to address it. Quick, someone donate their squeaky clutch pedaled RX-8 to C&D!
Last edited by MICHGoBlue; 05-04-2010 at 08:51 AM.
05-04-2010, 11:23 AM
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^ It wasn't simply the pads...read the article.
They changed and upgraded the pads that Nissan decided to market after and BECAUSE of this accident (at ~$600 upgrade cost), upgraded the brake fluid due to boiling...then tested again, and STILL things were not right, and while improved, appears to require some as yet to be determined fix.
Beyond that lets be real...just how many cars have already been put through the exact same Lightening Lap without such problems? Lot's of them have...and so forgetting any upgrades for a moment, none has this degree of brake deficiency as tested.
Right....and decent brakes.
They changed and upgraded the pads that Nissan decided to market after and BECAUSE of this accident (at ~$600 upgrade cost), upgraded the brake fluid due to boiling...then tested again, and STILL things were not right, and while improved, appears to require some as yet to be determined fix.
Beyond that lets be real...just how many cars have already been put through the exact same Lightening Lap without such problems? Lot's of them have...and so forgetting any upgrades for a moment, none has this degree of brake deficiency as tested.
Right....and decent brakes.
05-04-2010, 11:51 AM
#18
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Thread Starter
^ right...I know of some 350Z drivers that have no such problems. The 370Z has modified engine, different body styling, and apparently C&D thought they messed w/the aerodynamics enough to affect brake cooling. Suffice to say 370Z forum guys have been trying to deal with brake issues since introduction. Haven't been following too much lately, but did check and at least there's a thread there about this same C&D crash, and they're seemingly focusing on a 3rd party front end with nice big slots (like the gen2 RX-8) for help...and they're none to happy with Nissan about this situation either it would seem.
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