pelucidor

Looks like he shamelessly copied the 911 shape and then ruined it with the Bungle Butt to carry his 4 sets of golf clubs.

lilbigman

Is that what happens if a honda accord and a 911 were to mate?

Ike

I'm not a big fan of the 6 series, but I can certainly see influences from past 6 series in it. Isee your point about the 911, but I think more than anything that photo is deceptive and makes it look far more like a 911 than it actually does.

KC_Prelude

looks like a v6 accord with better wheels from that angle.

IKnowNot'ing

BANGLE, it's Chris BANGLE, not Bungle!
See the 6 in flesh, then decide. Not a great fan of BMW but I think the automotive industry needs more ballsy people like Bangle. There is nothing worse than a car that would let people indifferent.

pelucidor

I saw the 645i at the auto show a few weeks ago and hated it more than the photos. I cannot think of another car in it''s price range ($70k-$85k) that is as ugly. Why would anyone buy this instead of a 911 or the upcoming Mercedes CLS.

Oh - and I know more about Chris Bungle and Adrian van Hooydonk than you might think. There is ballsy and talented/smart as opposed to ballsy and talentless/dumb. Guess which I think Bungle is - hint: almost anyone can make a surprising car that is ugly but very few could make a surprising car that is gorgeous.

Baller

I love the new 6, you must drive it to love it.

pelucidor

I am sure the 645i is a great car to drive but if I could afford it I would never consider it because at $75k I want something that looks nice too.

Also it is too big (yet cramped in the rear seats according to reviews), heavy and slow compared to the 911, and I don't understand the need to load 4 golfbags in the trunk that is driving the rear design (hence Bungle Butt). I would rather have a Jaguar XK-R or 911 or Lexus SC430 or MB CLS or Maserati Coupe etc than the 645i just based on styling and performance for the money.

kellybrf

iTrader: (2)

the man is a genius, and bmw is the greatest car company ever without a prancing horse on their logo. for them to take such a radical step w/their line is a much needed swift kick in the *** and we can all thank bmw for the innovation were begining to see in car design today. and the 5, 6, and 7 series are all great looking cars, but must be seen in person to truly appreciate it (kinda sounds like another car worshiped around here...)

pelucidor

Herr Bangel - so good of you to join us on this humble car forum. I have seen your cars in the flesh (7-series, Z4, 5-series, 6-series). Heck, I have even driven the 7-series and 5-series.

The 7-series is a superb vehicle (I like the i-drive but I know you had nothing to do with that) - but it seems the awful styling is really hurting sales - lower than old model now, and for the first time worse than the about-to-be-replaced Mercedes S-class. I see that the BMW board asked the front and rear of the 7-series to be 'improved' within a year on the market (a record for any luxury car). The spy shots of the upcoming new 7-series front looks better but the rear is still awful. Is it really an innovation to design the rear of a car around the ability to hold 4 golfbags?

The 530i I drove two weeks ago, unfortunately, is just plain terrible value for the money ($53k for base 225hp car with Sport and Premium packages). The shape is awful of course (do cars really need Dame Edna eyebrows or an innovative hunchback for the golfclubs?) - but I wanted to see how much better this car is than the 5 year old 528i I have driven. Sadly the interior lacks any kind of luxury (your saleman got embarassed when I started pointing out the quality of the plastics, headliner, leather etc - nice wood though) and the old 528i was better. I liked the active steering but can I trust your electronics for critical things if you still don't know how to build a in-dash CD-changer or decent NAV system at any price. Also the car was just plain slow and less fun to throw around corners than my G35. Again I prefer the styling, luxury, quality of the older 5-series (which was much better value for money). I wonder why the 5-series, which in Europe used to be the best in it's segment and a best seller with the older model, actually needed incentives to make sales with the new model from day one in Europe (and is doing badly in the market and in magazine reviews).

To sum up - I think you are a egotistical charlatan and a pseudo-intellectual. I have read many of your magazine interviews and it is interesting that none of your designs stand up by themselves - you need use thousands of words to explain them because almost nobody likes them (including other designers and automotive writers). I wonder why people like Bertone, Guigaro, Pinin Farina etc never had to do that (even for small cheap cars). Mercedes needed no explanations when they launched the S-class 5 years ago or the recent E-class - they just look good as well as somewhat unusual. Same applies to Audi with the A8, or Infiniti with the upcoming M35/M45. Heck the Hyundai Tiburon looks better than your new 6-series (admittedly it is an unashamed copy of a Ferrari 456). Thank heavens you have been promoted out of harms way (I have read rumours from BMW headquarters that van Hooydonk's original designs for the 7 and 5 were much better until you interfered with them) - hopefully you have not inflicted so much damage on BMW that the marque cannot recover before all the vehicles are redesigned over the next 5 years. Remember any lousy designer can make cars that look hideuous and shock people (this means you) - it takes real talent to make an unusual but good looking car (you live in Europe so check out some of the vehicles from Alfa Romeo, Peugeot, Citroen, Lancia, Renault, Fiat etc and upcoming cars and concepts from Infiniti, Lexus, Mercedes, Hyundai).

IKnowNot'ing

Peugeot, Lancia, Fiat, Hyundai : perfect examples of generally bland, characterless designs. Add Nissan, Mitsu, ...

Citroën : blobs on wheels, probably the make of car I hate most, despite the clever C3 Pluriel and tidy looking new C2.

Renault : I don't think they're nicer than Beemers, but again I appreciate Patrick le Quement's originality. He made some real 'flops' too : Avantime anyone?


EDIT : and sorry, I did not get the 'bungle' joke. I did not know that word.

pelucidor

It seems you are very young. When I say look at cars from Citroen, Peugeot, Alfa etc I don't just mean this years designs.

I lived in Europe for over 25 years and have been reading their car mags for longer. I know the impact of designs like the Citroen 2CV (from 1949 - still on the roads), Peugeot 205 supermini, the stunning Citroen DS and GS, the lovely Alfa Spyder and GTV, the Peugeot 406 coupe designed by Pinin Farina (best looking cheap coupe ever), the Fiat Barchetta and 500, the Lancia Beta Montecarlo etc. All of these were suprising designs (especially at their price points) but also looked good, and they are still on the road (I have driven many of them).

Now I am not saying these were good cars to own and drive (we owned some of them), just that their design when introduced was unusual for their segment without being ugly. People who didn't experience it have no idea of the shock in the auto industry when cars like the Audi 100 or Vauxhall Calibra or Lamboghini Countach were introduced (but stunning looking too).

Of course the same companies had their share of stinkers - the Fiat Multipla is the worst looking car I have ever set eyes on - but none of these companies tried to 'shock' with every car in their stable at the same time and fail so badly in the court of public opinion. BMW should thank sales of the Mini and X5 for hiding how badly they are really doing with their new styling efforts on their bottom line.


And I said UPCOMING designs and concepts from Nissan (like Fuga/M45), Lexus (LF-C) and Hyundai (Tiburon replacement - I forget name).

IKnowNot'ing

Ah, don't you patronise me! I've lived in Europe for the past 33 years (since I was born in fact).
I've driven most of the cars you mentioned,
and I still remember the first time I saw a streamlined Audi 100, in front of my high school (I've had 5 Audis since then).

Still I don't see the point of your nostalgia post in regards with the discussion going on. Yes some out of your list were great cars.

So, in your opinion, based on what you just wrote about these historical cars, what is the long-term impact of the outgoing 5-series, Z3, E-30, ...? Bugger all IMHO.



PS : the Citroën GS is the worst piece of **** I've ever driven.

mikeb

I dont like the front

I really like the 5 series though

pelucidor

Sorry I got you confused with kellybrf who said of Bangle:
"the man is a genius, and bmw is the greatest car company ever without a prancing horse on their logo. for them to take such a radical step w/their line is a much needed swift kick in the *** and we can all thank bmw for the innovation were begining to see in car design today".

I don't think Bungle's designs are innovative or that he is a genius. But you are right - the previous generation of BMWs were not innovative or landmark designs either, just better looking. Tell me you didn't think the Audi 100 was amazing when it first came out, and compare it's design impact to a new 5-series. And I never said the cars in my example were good to drive or own, just that they were interesting designs (especially the DS and GS) without having to be ugly.

Baller

True beauty is in the eye of the beholder........I have had several BMW's and consider them the finest machines in the world.
The new 6 is just ahead of it's time.

IKnowNot'ing

OK, no problem.

Going back to the 1982 Audi 100 (the first streamlined one, that spent so many hours in the wind tunnel), I confirm I was absolutely amazed by the non-recessed (metal-tinted) windows and very clean design. I immediatly knew that it would influence European car design and reveal Audi as a design and engineering focused brand. I was 12 or 13 at the time. It was confirmed in 1986 when they released the splendid new Audi 80. I even convinced my parents to buy one. Later, I bought it from them. In total we kept it for 10 years. I bought another 4 Audis after that. I probably won't buy another one because Audi is IMO now too evolutionary in their design and engineering and not revolutionary enough. Apparently, that's going to change too (RWD A4...).

I just believe BMW is doing the right thing to keep potential customers (not only existing ones) interested about their products. Look what VW has done with the Golf 5! Huyndai does better recently. Nobody, besides a few old conservative people, wants to buy a boring car again. Another example : beyond its amazing other qualities, I really find the Porsche 996 a boring design compared to its 993 predecessor. Please come this way 997 and 998. I won't even mention the Cayenne here.

Also, I'm glad to see that most car manufacturer are out of their retro revival design trip (eg : T-bird, Beetle, Jag S-class, ...) and are not afraid to CREATE again.
The RX8 is IMO one of these truly creative designs (I think we can all agree on this, can't we?).

pelucidor

I agree with you on the Golf 5 - gentle evolution carried too far, they needed a big change. I also prefer the Porsche 993/997 look and think the 996 was a mistake - but in this case the 997 looks almost the same to me (in pics at least) to a 993 so extremely subtle design evolution there (but then the shape is almost perfect anyway with the 959 being the pinnacle). The Cayenne is just hideous no matter how well it works functionally, and makes Porsche just another car company rather than a focused sports car maker like Ferrari or Lotus.

Also I am not saying that all BMW designs are bad - I actually like the pics of the 4 series and the facelifted 7 series. I am not normally keen on retro cars like the T-bird and PT Cruiser, but I love the Mini, and the new Ford Mustang I saw at the auto show is the best looking Ford out there and a major step up from the current one.

And finally the RX-8 is without a doubt beautiful, unusual, suprising, special. This is a radical design and also functional change (space useage and seating, size, weight etc) from all that has gone before. Wish I still had one.

IKnowNot'ing

Hi pelucidor,

Although I dislike the Cayenne, I can understand where Porsche was coming from (most 911 owners buy a SUV - Rangie or Pajero - or a premium estate - A6, 5-series, E-class - for their wife and family). And apparently, money-wise, they were spot on! So much so apparently that European dealers are imposed quota proportionally calculated on the basis of their 996 and Boxster sales...

I agree with you about the Mini and the new Mustang (applies to the new Ford GT40 too) despite their 'retro' inspiration. Let's see whether the road holding is as good as the other Fords.

I did not mention it, but the most beautiful car for me, during these last 10 to 20 years, is the sublime, albeit now replaced, Aston Martin DB7 Vantage GT.