Chevy Volt gets 230 MPG
08-11-2009 | 12:48 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Administrator
iTrader: (7)
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 22,444
Likes: 2,797
From: The Dark Side
Chevy Volt gets 230 MPG
Take THAT Toyota Prius...
DETROIT — General Motors said Tuesday its Chevrolet Volt rechargeable electric car should get 230 miles per gallon of gasoline in city driving, more than four times the mileage of the current champion, the Toyota Prius.
The Volt is powered by an electric motor and a battery pack with a 40-mile range. After that, a small internal combustion engine kicks in to generate electricity for a total range of 300 miles. The battery pack can be recharged from a standard home outlet.
GM is marketing the 230-mile figure following early tests using draft guidelines from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency for calculating the mileage of extended range electric vehicles.
The EPA guidelines, developed with guidance from automakers, figure that cars like the Volt will travel more on straight electricity in the city than on the highway. If a person drives the Volt less than 40 miles, in theory they could go without using gasoline.
Highway mileage estimates — which are generally higher than city ones — for the Volt have yet to be released using the EPA's methodology.
If the figure is confirmed by the EPA, which does the tests for the mileage posted on new car door stickers, the Volt would be the first car to exceed triple-digit gas mileage, Posawatz said.
Most automakers are working similar plug-in designs, but GM could be the leader with the Volt, which is due in showrooms late in 2010.
Toyota's Prius, the most efficient car now sold in the U.S., gets 48 miles per gallon of gas. It is a gas-electric hybrid that runs on a small internal combustion engine assisted by a battery-powered electric motor to save gasoline.
The first-generation Volt is expected to cost near $40,000, making it cost-prohibitive to many people even if gasoline returns to $4 per gallon. The price is expected to drop with future generations of the Volt, but GM has said government tax credits and the savings on fuel could make it cost-effective, especially at 230 miles per gallon.
"We get a little cautious about trying to forecast what fuel prices will do," Posawatz said. "We achieved this number and if fuel prices go up, it certainly does get more attractive even in the near-term generation."
Figures for the Volt's highway and combined city/highway mileage have not yet been calculated, Posawatz said. The combined mileage will be in the triple digits as well, he said, but both combined and highway will be worse than city because the engine runs more on longer highway trips.
The mileage figure could vary as the guidelines are refined and the Volt gets further along in the manufacturing process, Posawatz said.
GM is about halfway through building about 80 Volts that will look and behave like the production model, and testing is running on schedule, Posawatz said.
Henderson said charging the Volt will cost about 40 cents a day, at approximately 5 cents per kilowatt hour.
Two critical areas, battery life and the electronic switching between battery and engine power, are still being refined, but the car is on schedule to reach showrooms late in 2010, he said.
GM is simulating tests to make sure the new lithium-ion batteries last 10 years, Posawatz said.
"We're further along, but we're still quite a ways from home," he said. "We're developing quite a knowledge base on all this stuff. Our confidence is growing."
The other area of new technology, switching between battery and engine power, is proceeding well, he said, with engineers just fine-tuning the operations.
"We're very pleased with the transition from when it's driving EV (electric vehicle) to when the engine and generator kick in," he said,
GM also is finishing work on the power cord, which will be durable enough that it can survive being run over by the car. The Volt, he said, will have software on board so it can be programmed to begin and end charging during off-peak electrical use hours.
It will be easy for future Volt owners living in rural and suburban areas to plug in their cars at night, but even Henderson recognized the challenge urban, apartment dwellers, or those that park their car on the street might have recharging the Volt. There could eventually be charging stations set up by a third-party to meet such a demand, Henderson said.
Chrysler, Ford and Daimler are all developing plug-ins and electric cars, and Toyota is working on a plug-in version of its gas-electric hybrid system. Nissan announced last month that it would begin selling an electric vehicle in Japan and the U.S. next year.
The Volt is powered by an electric motor and a battery pack with a 40-mile range. After that, a small internal combustion engine kicks in to generate electricity for a total range of 300 miles. The battery pack can be recharged from a standard home outlet.
GM is marketing the 230-mile figure following early tests using draft guidelines from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency for calculating the mileage of extended range electric vehicles.
The EPA guidelines, developed with guidance from automakers, figure that cars like the Volt will travel more on straight electricity in the city than on the highway. If a person drives the Volt less than 40 miles, in theory they could go without using gasoline.
Highway mileage estimates — which are generally higher than city ones — for the Volt have yet to be released using the EPA's methodology.
If the figure is confirmed by the EPA, which does the tests for the mileage posted on new car door stickers, the Volt would be the first car to exceed triple-digit gas mileage, Posawatz said.
Most automakers are working similar plug-in designs, but GM could be the leader with the Volt, which is due in showrooms late in 2010.
Toyota's Prius, the most efficient car now sold in the U.S., gets 48 miles per gallon of gas. It is a gas-electric hybrid that runs on a small internal combustion engine assisted by a battery-powered electric motor to save gasoline.
The first-generation Volt is expected to cost near $40,000, making it cost-prohibitive to many people even if gasoline returns to $4 per gallon. The price is expected to drop with future generations of the Volt, but GM has said government tax credits and the savings on fuel could make it cost-effective, especially at 230 miles per gallon.
"We get a little cautious about trying to forecast what fuel prices will do," Posawatz said. "We achieved this number and if fuel prices go up, it certainly does get more attractive even in the near-term generation."
Figures for the Volt's highway and combined city/highway mileage have not yet been calculated, Posawatz said. The combined mileage will be in the triple digits as well, he said, but both combined and highway will be worse than city because the engine runs more on longer highway trips.
The mileage figure could vary as the guidelines are refined and the Volt gets further along in the manufacturing process, Posawatz said.
GM is about halfway through building about 80 Volts that will look and behave like the production model, and testing is running on schedule, Posawatz said.
Henderson said charging the Volt will cost about 40 cents a day, at approximately 5 cents per kilowatt hour.
Two critical areas, battery life and the electronic switching between battery and engine power, are still being refined, but the car is on schedule to reach showrooms late in 2010, he said.
GM is simulating tests to make sure the new lithium-ion batteries last 10 years, Posawatz said.
"We're further along, but we're still quite a ways from home," he said. "We're developing quite a knowledge base on all this stuff. Our confidence is growing."
The other area of new technology, switching between battery and engine power, is proceeding well, he said, with engineers just fine-tuning the operations.
"We're very pleased with the transition from when it's driving EV (electric vehicle) to when the engine and generator kick in," he said,
GM also is finishing work on the power cord, which will be durable enough that it can survive being run over by the car. The Volt, he said, will have software on board so it can be programmed to begin and end charging during off-peak electrical use hours.
It will be easy for future Volt owners living in rural and suburban areas to plug in their cars at night, but even Henderson recognized the challenge urban, apartment dwellers, or those that park their car on the street might have recharging the Volt. There could eventually be charging stations set up by a third-party to meet such a demand, Henderson said.
Chrysler, Ford and Daimler are all developing plug-ins and electric cars, and Toyota is working on a plug-in version of its gas-electric hybrid system. Nissan announced last month that it would begin selling an electric vehicle in Japan and the U.S. next year.
08-11-2009 | 01:13 PM
#5
Thread Starter
Administrator
iTrader: (7)
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 22,444
Likes: 2,797
From: The Dark Side
you guys are missing the point.
While I am not a huge fan of American cars (I mainly have issues with interior design), this is quiet an accomplishment for GM.
who knows, maybe this finally puts the Prius in its place and gets rid of those shitty Hybrids. This seems to be a better route
While I am not a huge fan of American cars (I mainly have issues with interior design), this is quiet an accomplishment for GM.
who knows, maybe this finally puts the Prius in its place and gets rid of those shitty Hybrids. This seems to be a better route
08-11-2009 | 01:21 PM
#7
I zoom therefore I am.
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,919
Likes: 12
From: San Jose, CA
The prius didnt succeed just because of it's MPG. It succeeded because of all the little things that imports beat domestic cars on every day.
Starts with the dealerships (people, attitude, atmosphere, service)
Go through the test drive (i have never driven an american car on a test drive without something on the interior being either broken , missing, ill-fitting, or just stupid looking and out of place)
Continues with the feel of driving. I don't know why most american manufactures still reserve their best handling cars for top of the line or high end add on's but it's stupid and makes their cars feel like crap when stock.
It ends with the actual owning of the car. I've had a handful of american made cars and one every one, EVERY ONE, i've run into issues with stupid things going wrong and having to wait weeks to get them resolved. Be it the financing department misplacing paperwork, the dealer telling me they sold me the wrong car (hand to god, they said they sold it too cheap), or the service center changing the oil but actually only draining it and not refilling)
With every import car i've owned I've just felt better in my purchase. What part of the car do you see the most? The interior, and when some cheap piece of plastic breaks and you have to replace it yourself you feel less happy about your purchase.
There are good american cars out there, but if you take them as a whole import > domestic.
Starts with the dealerships (people, attitude, atmosphere, service)
Go through the test drive (i have never driven an american car on a test drive without something on the interior being either broken , missing, ill-fitting, or just stupid looking and out of place)
Continues with the feel of driving. I don't know why most american manufactures still reserve their best handling cars for top of the line or high end add on's but it's stupid and makes their cars feel like crap when stock.
It ends with the actual owning of the car. I've had a handful of american made cars and one every one, EVERY ONE, i've run into issues with stupid things going wrong and having to wait weeks to get them resolved. Be it the financing department misplacing paperwork, the dealer telling me they sold me the wrong car (hand to god, they said they sold it too cheap), or the service center changing the oil but actually only draining it and not refilling)
With every import car i've owned I've just felt better in my purchase. What part of the car do you see the most? The interior, and when some cheap piece of plastic breaks and you have to replace it yourself you feel less happy about your purchase.
There are good american cars out there, but if you take them as a whole import > domestic.
08-11-2009 | 01:22 PM
#8
A relatively pure electric vehicle that only uses its gasoline engine to recharge the battery pack post 40 mile duration. Excellent principle!
Of course the hidden cost of electric vehicles is the lifecycle of the batteries and therefore replacement cost. I like the pure electric Tesla, but a much larger battery pack required for its 250 mile range.
Of course the hidden cost of electric vehicles is the lifecycle of the batteries and therefore replacement cost. I like the pure electric Tesla, but a much larger battery pack required for its 250 mile range.
08-11-2009 | 01:23 PM
#9
Thread Starter
Administrator
iTrader: (7)
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 22,444
Likes: 2,797
From: The Dark Side
A relatively pure electric vehicle that only uses its gasoline engine to recharge the battery pack post 40 mile duration. Excellent principle!
Of course the hidden cost of electric vehicles is the lifecycle of the batteries and therefore replacement cost. I like the pure electric Tesla, but a much larger battery pack required for its 250 mile range.
Of course the hidden cost of electric vehicles is the lifecycle of the batteries and therefore replacement cost. I like the pure electric Tesla, but a much larger battery pack required for its 250 mile range.
GM is simulating tests to make sure the new lithium-ion batteries last 10 years, Posawatz said.
08-11-2009 | 01:26 PM
#10
The part they don't tell you is that the Volt doesn't get a true 230 MPG. Only on trips of 50 miles or less since the first 40 it is running on pure electricty. If you take a trip of 300 miles you get roughly 60 MPG due to running on gas. While this is still awesome, the guys at GM shouldn't be able to advertise these numbers.
08-11-2009 | 01:26 PM
#11
Registered
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
From: Long Island,NY
CNN has an article about how the EPA came up with the 230mpg estimate. Here's pretty much the breakdown:
So let's say the car is driven 50 miles in a day. For the first 40 miles, no gas is used and during the last 10 miles, 0.2 gallons are used. That's the equivalent of 250 miles per gallon. But, if the driver continues on to 80 miles, total fuel economy would drop to about 100 mpg. And if the driver goes 300 miles, the fuel economy would be just 62.5 mpg.
http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/11/auto...ion=2009081108
It still looks to be a great car, but those numbers seem a little misleading.
So let's say the car is driven 50 miles in a day. For the first 40 miles, no gas is used and during the last 10 miles, 0.2 gallons are used. That's the equivalent of 250 miles per gallon. But, if the driver continues on to 80 miles, total fuel economy would drop to about 100 mpg. And if the driver goes 300 miles, the fuel economy would be just 62.5 mpg.
http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/11/auto...ion=2009081108
It still looks to be a great car, but those numbers seem a little misleading.
08-11-2009 | 01:28 PM
#13
Thread Starter
Administrator
iTrader: (7)
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 22,444
Likes: 2,797
From: The Dark Side
It's called MARKETING.
c'mon guys... every car company out there does it.
HELL, even the 62 mpg trumps the Prius.
It's like horsepower figures on cars. Do people really buy an RX-8 believing that at ALL times they have 238 hp? uhh... no.
It's simply to show what the vehicle is capable of.
c'mon guys... every car company out there does it.
HELL, even the 62 mpg trumps the Prius.
It's like horsepower figures on cars. Do people really buy an RX-8 believing that at ALL times they have 238 hp? uhh... no.
It's simply to show what the vehicle is capable of.
08-11-2009 | 01:32 PM
#14
They should really advertise cost per mile at various break points. They totally neglect the electric usage costs in the mpg rating. But then, they're marketeers, so ..... 
But all things considered a very good step in the right direction.
btw: I like the "100% torque at zero rpm" electrics marketing. WTF good is that!!!
But all things considered a very good step in the right direction.
btw: I like the "100% torque at zero rpm" electrics marketing. WTF good is that!!!
08-11-2009 | 01:39 PM
#15
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
From: Naperville, IL
Since electric cars all seem to cost much less per mile than gas, it should be an excellent commuter/short distance car, so long as the batteries can last ... with the distance I drive to work Id be getting infinity mpg!
08-11-2009 | 01:41 PM
#16
So it is for the urbanite.
I find it hard to believe that the design is that incredible if the mpg drops so drastically past the battery-empty mark. It seems like it is a series hybrid most of the time, until you pass the 40 mile mark and it turns into a parallel hybrid?
His comment certainly suggests it:
Granted, the Frazier-Nash Namir is a supercar concept, but that doesn't have a transition. The tiny turboed rotary is constantly humming, the electric power is always the drive source.
I think Chevy did it again, developed a good idea, but didn't bring it far enough, and someone else will outstrip them in short order.
I find it hard to believe that the design is that incredible if the mpg drops so drastically past the battery-empty mark. It seems like it is a series hybrid most of the time, until you pass the 40 mile mark and it turns into a parallel hybrid?
His comment certainly suggests it:
The other area of new technology, switching between battery and engine power, is proceeding well, he said, with engineers just fine-tuning the operations.
"We're very pleased with the transition from when it's driving EV (electric vehicle) to when the engine and generator kick in," he said,
"We're very pleased with the transition from when it's driving EV (electric vehicle) to when the engine and generator kick in," he said,
I think Chevy did it again, developed a good idea, but didn't bring it far enough, and someone else will outstrip them in short order.
08-11-2009 | 02:01 PM
#17
It's a Cavalier
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,926
Likes: 5
From: Austin, TX
Some folks are close, but missing the point.
Stupid Americans have been trained to look at MPG. It's an awful measure of fuel efficiency because it's based on a function that relates fuel consumption in the shape of a hyperbolic curve, so people incorrectly believe that improvements in gas mileage allow you to save gas linearly. WRONG. The difference in the amount of gas you save by increasing gas mileage from 9 to 10 mpg is NOT the same as the amount gas saved by going from 39 to 40. ITS NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!
A much better measurement would be gallons consumed per 100 miles driven. As you can see, as this measurement increases, you see a linearly increase in the amount of fuel saved, because it is a measure of "rate of fuel consumption" instead of fuel economy.
In addition, obviously, we do not have a set of standardized metrics to measure hybrid-electrics in a way we can do a meaningful one-to-one comparison to standard combustion powered vehicles. Purely using MPG is ridiculous in comparing electrics to gasoline burning vehicles. It doesn't tell the full story, but as Americans, we want everything boiled down to one single number so we make our consumer buying decisions with the least amount of actual thinking.
Stupid Americans have been trained to look at MPG. It's an awful measure of fuel efficiency because it's based on a function that relates fuel consumption in the shape of a hyperbolic curve, so people incorrectly believe that improvements in gas mileage allow you to save gas linearly. WRONG. The difference in the amount of gas you save by increasing gas mileage from 9 to 10 mpg is NOT the same as the amount gas saved by going from 39 to 40. ITS NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!
A much better measurement would be gallons consumed per 100 miles driven. As you can see, as this measurement increases, you see a linearly increase in the amount of fuel saved, because it is a measure of "rate of fuel consumption" instead of fuel economy.
In addition, obviously, we do not have a set of standardized metrics to measure hybrid-electrics in a way we can do a meaningful one-to-one comparison to standard combustion powered vehicles. Purely using MPG is ridiculous in comparing electrics to gasoline burning vehicles. It doesn't tell the full story, but as Americans, we want everything boiled down to one single number so we make our consumer buying decisions with the least amount of actual thinking.
08-11-2009 | 02:26 PM
#18
It's a Cavalier
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,926
Likes: 5
From: Austin, TX
I ran some numbers to demonstrate this.
The reason we are converting to electric is to decrease our dependence on foreign oil and decrease the amount of fossil fuels burned to prevent global warming, right? Okay. Barf, but whatever... here's goes.... you win a cookie if you answer it right.
Which one SAVES more gallons of gasoline per year if both vehicles are driven 10,000 miles?
Going from a 50 mpg Toyota Prius to a 230 mpg Chevy Volt
OR
going from a 15 mpg Cadillac Escalade to 20 mpg Mazda RX8?
The reason we are converting to electric is to decrease our dependence on foreign oil and decrease the amount of fossil fuels burned to prevent global warming, right? Okay. Barf, but whatever... here's goes.... you win a cookie if you answer it right.
Which one SAVES more gallons of gasoline per year if both vehicles are driven 10,000 miles?
Going from a 50 mpg Toyota Prius to a 230 mpg Chevy Volt
OR
going from a 15 mpg Cadillac Escalade to 20 mpg Mazda RX8?
08-11-2009 | 02:29 PM
#19
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Some folks are close, but missing the point.
Stupid Americans have been trained to look at MPG. It's an awful measure of fuel efficiency because it's based on a function that relates fuel consumption in the shape of a hyperbolic curve, so people incorrectly believe that improvements in gas mileage allow you to save gas linearly. WRONG. The difference in the amount of gas you save by increasing gas mileage from 9 to 10 mpg is NOT the same as the amount gas saved by going from 39 to 40. ITS NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!
A much better measurement would be gallons consumed per 100 miles driven. As you can see, as this measurement increases, you see a linearly increase in the amount of fuel saved, because it is a measure of "rate of fuel consumption" instead of fuel economy.
In addition, obviously, we do not have a set of standardized metrics to measure hybrid-electrics in a way we can do a meaningful one-to-one comparison to standard combustion powered vehicles. Purely using MPG is ridiculous in comparing electrics to gasoline burning vehicles. It doesn't tell the full story, but as Americans, we want everything boiled down to one single number so we make our consumer buying decisions with the least amount of actual thinking.
Stupid Americans have been trained to look at MPG. It's an awful measure of fuel efficiency because it's based on a function that relates fuel consumption in the shape of a hyperbolic curve, so people incorrectly believe that improvements in gas mileage allow you to save gas linearly. WRONG. The difference in the amount of gas you save by increasing gas mileage from 9 to 10 mpg is NOT the same as the amount gas saved by going from 39 to 40. ITS NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!
A much better measurement would be gallons consumed per 100 miles driven. As you can see, as this measurement increases, you see a linearly increase in the amount of fuel saved, because it is a measure of "rate of fuel consumption" instead of fuel economy.
In addition, obviously, we do not have a set of standardized metrics to measure hybrid-electrics in a way we can do a meaningful one-to-one comparison to standard combustion powered vehicles. Purely using MPG is ridiculous in comparing electrics to gasoline burning vehicles. It doesn't tell the full story, but as Americans, we want everything boiled down to one single number so we make our consumer buying decisions with the least amount of actual thinking.
08-11-2009 | 02:34 PM
#20
you obviously havent driven or sat in the new cts camaro malibu taurus(sho) mks etc ... they have EXCELLENT fit and finish and performance for half the price of the competitors!! gm is making progress and glad to see so is ford my entire famils loves domestics im the odd one out but i WILL give them credit for the stuff theyre making now
08-11-2009 | 02:37 PM
#21
Registered
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 5,027
Likes: 0
From: Austin, Texas
you obviously havent driven or sat in the new cts camaro malibu taurus(sho) mks etc ... they have EXCELLENT fit and finish and performance for half the price of the competitors!! gm is making progress and glad to see so is ford my entire famils loves domestics im the odd one out but i WILL give them credit for the stuff theyre making now
08-11-2009 | 02:40 PM
#22
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
From: Naperville, IL
I ran some numbers to demonstrate this.
The reason we are converting to electric is to decrease our dependence on foreign oil and decrease the amount of fossil fuels burned to prevent global warming, right? Okay. Barf, but whatever... here's goes.... you win a cookie if you answer it right.
Which one SAVES more gallons of gasoline per year if both vehicles are driven 10,000 miles?
Going from a 50 mpg Toyota Prius to a 230 mpg Chevy Volt
OR
going from a 15 mpg Cadillac Escalade to 20 mpg Mazda RX8?
The reason we are converting to electric is to decrease our dependence on foreign oil and decrease the amount of fossil fuels burned to prevent global warming, right? Okay. Barf, but whatever... here's goes.... you win a cookie if you answer it right.
Which one SAVES more gallons of gasoline per year if both vehicles are driven 10,000 miles?
Going from a 50 mpg Toyota Prius to a 230 mpg Chevy Volt
OR
going from a 15 mpg Cadillac Escalade to 20 mpg Mazda RX8?
Not getting rid of the need for fossil fuel or eliminating emissions issues, but at least an improvement
08-11-2009 | 03:00 PM
#23
+1! i used to live in saudi arabia for a few years and then in london for half a year and travel alot and those ppl prefer american cars to almost ANYTHING and its because all these years the american cars in those countries have been awesome but theyre stepping their game up here and its really EVIDENT
08-11-2009 | 03:14 PM
#24
It's a Cavalier
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,926
Likes: 5
From: Austin, TX
LOL!
What do you mean "That may be"? It wasn't a true or false question... you have to do the math to determine which saves more fuel. If you can't do the simple math, you don't truly comprehend the concept.
We have to be EFFICIENT in the WAY we cut back. The overall goal is to decrease the amount of fuel the US burns from a macroscopic perspective, and change our individual behavior based on overall costs and a mathematically proven approach.
Moving to a $40,000 car to only save a couple of gallons of gasoline doesn't help change the global perpective. That's why I think the Volt is STUPID, and the American consumer is even more stupid for believing that they're making a big impact because of the BIG 230 mpg number.
So who's going to do the math? Cookie!
That may be, but the main point of this is that there will be even more fuel efficient options.... how much more do you save by going from a 15mpg escalade to a volt?
Not getting rid of the need for fossil fuel or eliminating emissions issues, but at least an improvement
Not getting rid of the need for fossil fuel or eliminating emissions issues, but at least an improvement
We have to be EFFICIENT in the WAY we cut back. The overall goal is to decrease the amount of fuel the US burns from a macroscopic perspective, and change our individual behavior based on overall costs and a mathematically proven approach.
Moving to a $40,000 car to only save a couple of gallons of gasoline doesn't help change the global perpective. That's why I think the Volt is STUPID, and the American consumer is even more stupid for believing that they're making a big impact because of the BIG 230 mpg number.
So who's going to do the math? Cookie!
08-11-2009 | 03:28 PM
#25
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
From: Naperville, IL
If youre using 15k/yr as milage, going from 15 to 20 saves you 250gal (750 gal instead of 1000) and going from the 50 to 230 saves 234, so just a little less, but still, almost the same amount.... I had done the math, saw where you were going... didnt think you wanted to see the stuff all written out... im not stupid
My point is going from 15-20 to 230 saves 7-900/yr... times the 200million some cars in the US... its a bit of a savings. you can do the math
My point is going from 15-20 to 230 saves 7-900/yr... times the 200million some cars in the US... its a bit of a savings. you can do the math
Last edited by ndhoffma; 08-11-2009 at 03:32 PM.