RichardK

Aside from the race issue, DWB is like Driving Whilst Young up here (hell, rural Britain doesn't have enough ethnic minorities to hassle, so they need to identify subgroups. Makes our cops work much harder). And you know what?

I was never that bothered. Sure, being pulled over is a pain, but I had my paperwork right, my car was maintained well, and even though I often had very flash cars for my age, I was never doing anything wrong.

So, the difference as I see it is, you stand a greater chance of getting caught doing something wrong, IF you are doing something wrong. The middle-aged WASP might be able to drive their Buick with more defects, but it isn't that they don't ever get caught, they just have a lower chance of getting caught randomly. IF stopped, and all is legal and well, then DWB should not be an issue.

However, I don't doubt the truth behind the impression that SOME cops aren't too happy to find DWB is combined with utterly legal paperwork, and still cause hassle. They do the same whilst DWY here, but only if you give them reason (i.e. they will try and proscute for car modifications which even the average braindead boy racer knows are legal - in fact, most Boy Racers can't drive, can't read and can't think, but know Constructions and Use Legislation backwards).

dmp

Can I quote you? I'm in a few 'driving' threads on another board, and would LOVE to read ppl's comments there about what you so aptly described here.


Now - I'd disagree with part of it:

We don't have the worst drivers in the world. Ever lived in Korea? Ever driven in Moscow, Russia? Moscow and "every where in Korea" scared me. A Lot.

bascho

Rural areas of Mexico and other Latin American countries are also interesting. Instead of following line-divided streets, drivers basically crowd the street......as many cars as they can fit across the lane. The street may have two actual lanes coming up to a stop light......but you'll see three cars in the front row....sometimes four. I have never actually been....but several of my friends work in Mexico in the automotive supplier business and they say it is really hard to get used to.

saturn

I know you're British so you're not going to fully get this, but it's a really big deal. You're going to get older and eventually not be young anymore -- black people will always be black (unless you're Michael Jackson). You wouldn't want to be hassled every other day for the rest of your life.

I got slammed into coming out of a gas station by a guy that was trying to beat a red light. I ended up getting the ticket because I was 16 even though I had witnesses to back me up. Sure, maybe 16 year olds do cause more traffic incidenets than any other age group, but I wasn't in the wrong in my case. In the end, I paid the ticket and got over it. But if I was constantly regarded as the more likely offender for the rest of my life just because of the way I look, dress, etc I would be pissed.

Profiling in general will always be used because that's how humans are. If you completely ignore all generalizations you're probably going to do some very stupid things in life. But just the same don't expect to fully get it unless you have to go through it.

The RX-8

Actually it is... Force = Mass * Velocity divided by the amount of time of the actual impact. Therefore, the faster you are going, the more damage occurs when you get into an accident. Accidents are also more likely because you have less time to take action when someone does something stupid (be it you or someone else).

Retarded. Speed limits are in place for a reason - statistically proven levels to meet acceptable levels of carnage. I don't like dumb people that just like to speak without backing anything up.

RichardK

I do get it. But in your example, you're hit whilst exiting a gas station because a guy was trying to beat a red light, and in my opinion whilst he was clearly the wrong, you failed to observe traffic on a road you were joining. So I can't really take it as a case of 'unfair treatment'.

See, there's more ways than cops that one can be singled out, and I'm weird enough that kids walking down the street say "Mummy, than man looks funny". I can't stop being me. So, I don't get hassle from cops, but I do get plenty of hassle in many other areas.

RichardK

In terms out outright adhesion, the limits may well be out of date (unless they suddenly ban all cars made before a certain year, or without certain tyres or suspension, they will apply to SOME cars, though) - but obviously not in terms of external influences like people, buildings, scenery, weather and so forth.

However, quite tellingly for the British - let's assume 1940s American car technology was pretty damned crap. Well below modern cars.

The stopping distances for an American car in the 1940s - as found by my girlfriend online somewhere - were in fact SHORTER than the current Highway Code stopping distances.

And this is the sort of data used to determine speed limits and road behaviour. In fact, the only people paying attention to trends in car design are the people designing parking spaces, which is why my Eldorado needed 2 spaces (despite being one of the smaller versions) to be able to open the door, and was too long. Having a car with near 5ft long doors is never easy in modern carparks - another reason for liking the RX8 and indeed, my Sera (43cm clearance to fully open the door).

bascho

Absolutely true....DWY is not the same as DWB. There are few times in life that I am truely embarrassed to be white......and my friends stories about being pulled over for DWB are one of them. At my last job, before Ford, I worked in local auto parts store. The machinist that ran our machine shop was a black guy, about 38 years old, roughly 6'1", 250lbs, shaved-head with a goatee. He was one of the nicest guys I have ever met.....literally would give you the shirt off his back. He never did a single drug, never had a single drink, never smoked, owned his own house, worked on neighbors cars on the side.....all-around great citizen. Anyways, the store was located in a predomantly white city and he drove a beat-up old Chevy C10 pickup. He was pulled over at least once a week coming to or leaving work. Several times, multiple cars were used and once he had four cars pull him over, one pulled out in front of him while the rest were behind. He was always joking about it when he told me......always sayin' "they pulled a brotha over for DWB." I always felt like a POS for being of the same race as the cops that behaved this way. He never once made me feel unconfortable about it though.....he always kept the complaints cop related instead of race related.

You tellin' me that young Brits have the same situation? I doubt it.

RichardK

No-one in Britain has THAT situation, regardless of ethnicity. That would imply that our cops actually got up and did something (being pulled invariably involves 2 cops, and you should get out of the car to talk to them so they don't maintain a position of authority by bending over you. Seriously). But, in terms of targetted policing, when they did/do police the roads, young drivers get pulled all the time, overlooking drunken middle-aged drivers, banned reps and all sorts of other 'less obvious' offenders.

US policing style is overkill and I am not denying that DWB is a problem, merely pointing out that 'targeted' policing happens. In fact, in the UK the lack of policing at all in recent years makes me wish for more policing - not just in terms of driver behaviour, but anti-social behaviour and so forth.

It's really hard to communicate just how crap the British masses can be

I have encountered the weird racism the US suffers. When I was in Oklahoma, my friend - similar aged, tolerably intelligent white girl, had already introduced me to her Mexican relations and African (I offend her by forgetting the region, I'm sure) friend - refused to get out of the car in a little town on Route 66 (Arcadia, I think it was called). There was a scrapyard there with an old dude, beautifully painted truck, and some interesting scrap like a Volvo PV544 and an E-body Eldorado with the stainless roof. I chatted to him for ages, and she just sat in the car.

I got back and said "Hey, why didn't you come out. He had a little model car he'd made for his kids, and a beautiful Chevelle SS"

She replied "Well... he's black!"

"And?"

"I can't tell what he's thinking, his face... they always look the same!"

Needless to say, she is no longer my friend. I simply couldn't believe the attitude. Again, compared to UK scrapyard owners, he was polite, talkative, friendly and didn't want to rip me off for some wheelcentres.

In fact, this is the whole thing I probably don't get in the US. This is the same neighbourhood, just down the road from Chandler where my Caddy broke down on a Sunday, and what I think were a lesbian couple with a new shop broke off decorating it to get the local autoparts guy out to open his store, where a heater hose for a 1982 Caddy 4100HTi was on the shelf. It just wouldn't happen in the UK. And yet, would these people have looked at the guy in the scrapyard and been unwilling to talk to him? I hope not.

RevTo9K

There are certainly artificially low speed limits in some areas, which are used simply to provide revenue and have very little to do with safety.

However, when I think about the idea of raising speed limits across the board, I'm hesitant to say it's a real good idea, and here's why...

It has to do with two things that were pointed out here.

First, drivers who don't consider driving a "participation sport" are deadly, and there are way too many out there. Letting them try to go faster just causes them to hit stuff harder.

Second, most of us here don't drive "normal" cars. We drive cars that are spectacular. And we're in the minority.

When I get a particularly sloppy rental (the Buick Rendezvous (sp?) comes to mind), it's real clear, real fast that 45 MPH ramp speeds are there for a reason - and since I'm used to driving my 8, my CL, or my wife's Murano, I sometimes forget that most vehicles don't handle as well, and don't brake as well, and simply can't handle the same speed on the same road.

Some time ago, I read a proposal for a "Super License", which would allow drivers with superior (proven/tested) skill to legally travel at a higher speed on certain roads. The driver would only be allowed to do so in a specific car (or cars) which were capable and recently confirmed to be properly maintained. It wasn't a perfect proposal, but it sounded interesting to me.

alcimedes

Bah, the problem isn't the driving tests, the problem is enforecement.

If people got tickets for not passing while in the left lane, they'd stop doing it.

If people got tickets for talking on cell phones while driving, they'd stop doing it.

It's not a lack of laws, it's a lack of law enforcement. Let's face it, people only obey the rules they're worried about breaking.

RotrDoc

I can only vouch, personally, for Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas; but THEY ALL SUCK!!!

But then, the "speed limit enforcers" (good term!!) probably think that I suck when I'm impatient with them driving 5 mph over the limit. I always flash my lights a couple times to give them a chance to move over and usually lay on the horn if I pass on the right to remind them that I'm there.

truemagellen

I'll have to disagree with this E...it should be a serious ordeal to get a license...training should involve multiple environmental factors that are graded step by step...it should take months to get a license after rigous testing that has a high failure rate.

31,000 people dead from teens? ouch:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/18/tee...cnn_topstories

Also if you get two DUIs in this country at .11 (or 4 at .08 or 2 .08s and 1 .11) you should never be allowed to drive again...like Germany is

missinmahseven

Learned to drive in Puerto Rico, survived Italy, to include Pisa, Rome, and the Autostrada between Pisa and Maranello.

Rome scared me, but after a while I got the hang of it.... haven't had the chance to go to Korea or Moscow. Yet.

The funny thing is, once I got the hang of Italian driving, it made more sense than what we got here in the States.... go fig.

alcimedes

And I'd stipulate that young drivers are just less able to deal with distraction (cell phones and the like) and so are more likely to crash when exposed to them.

There's only so much you can teach in driver's ed and the like, eventually your *** needs to get on the road and actually drive for a while to know what you're doing.

spork

Reminds me of a TV special I saw once. There was this white border trooper with like an 80% success rate (ie 80% of the people he pulls over has contraband). What was the big issue? I mean that's great right? 80% of the people he pulls over are guilty!

The big issue was almost everyone he pulls over are black. He profiled racially. Should we stop him? I mean he has an incredibly great success rate!

As for the drivers here, this is what I noticed...

1) In California, people pass whereever. Right, left, far right, middle. It doesn't matter, and I've never seen someone pulled over for it so I don't think it's a law here.
2) People don't realize they shouldn't be in the fast lane when they're not going fast. Too often I'm in the fast lane behind someone with NO cars ahead of him, very sparse traffic otherwise and going 63 miles per hour while the guy in the lane next to him is going 63-65. To pass I often have to move right two lanes and pass. I really think people need to get that drilled into them. Don't be in the fast lane if no one is ahead of you and someone is close behind you. Move over and let him pass.
3) People in the US are distracted drivers. They like to multitask. I've seen a lady in an SUV getting on the freeway, merging with traffic. She was on the cellphone AND smoking a cigarette AT THE SAME TIME. Accident waiting to happen. Same with eating/drinking in the car.
4) People in the US aren't really concerned with driving as much as just getting from point A to point B. Most people don't care about the process of getting there... There fore they're not really familiar with defensive driving. They just know enough to get where they need to go.

as a side note, I notice in lots of Asia, the drivers there are quite skilled, but horrible drivers. They just couldn't care less about following traffic laws. A lot of Asian drivers I know in the US are like that too. They're good drivers in terms of knowing how to control their car, but they ignore a lot of traffic rules which makes them overall bad drivers.

bascho

Here in Michigan the drivers as a whole are pretty aggressive. Driving 80-90mph on the highway is typical. The biggest problem I've seen with Michigan drivers is the use of turn signals........or rather the lask of use. When you have thousands of aggressive drivers and half never use the turn signals....it can get a little scary. They must think that they are telepathic....signaling the lane change with their mind.

NomisR

I fully understand that. The speed limit currently is dependant upon how much revenue can be generated at irregardless of what should be considered the optimal speed for that road. They basically set the speed limit for the most politically correct speed rather than the safest speed for that road. What makes one road of the same width, same condition, length, and traffic flow safe to travel at 75mph while another is only safe at 55mph? Politics of course..

saturn

Normally, you'd be right, but the guy hit another car first and then came across the yellow line and hit me. But in general, I wasn't trying to say "I got scewed so bad". I think you got my point though. Just wanted to clarify.

Where I live now people drive just as slow in the left lane as they do in the right. It's just how things work around here. I hate it so much, but what I can really say? I know it's common practice to make the left lane the fast lane or passing lane, but this is generally only accepted by the masses on major highways and interstates -- not on roads that have left hand exits or turns.

I do think there should be some very stiff penalties for people who do really stupid things on the road. If you are really drunk (meaning well over legal limit) and you drive I don't think you should be able to drive for 5-10 years at least. People who go 100 mph in populated areas should have the same penalty. I know everyone has a different idea of what's too fast and what's excessive, but at some point, stiff penalties should have to be paid.

RichardK

Personally, I'm of the opinion that doing 30 in a 60 limit, driving in the (not inside) lanes when not passing something, regardless of the speed you are travelling (unless moving for a turn), inappropriately using foglights, tailgating (something I am guilty of, especially when faced with the first offence and a lot of oncoming traffic) and generally being utterly oblivious to the world around should be punishable at the same levels as speeding. All are distracting, potentially dangerous (rear foglights obscure brakelights) and are commonplace.

Speeding in residential areas is something that I simply won't consciously do. I will sometimes notice my car has crept up to 34 in a 30 if there is a flow of traffic, but I'll slow down the instant I've noticed - I try not to drive just looking at the speed. And I am quite happy to double the national speed limit on some of the roads around here - I'll accept the penalties for being caught if I'm careless enough to do it, but I'm not sure I could accept the penalties (mentally) if I took another road user out by going beyond the safe boundaries, so I don't do it often.

Multiple lanes are good for traffic flow, like a buffer, into cities. I can understand using both lanes in cities, say on the 401 in Toronto. However, I can't understand it on interstate roads, and I have seen it there. Sheer obliviousness I suspect.

The RX-8

And I take offense! I am a 17 year old new driver (4 months with my liscense) and I am willing to bet that I deal with distractions better than you do. I am a focused person. For better or for worse, I can allot my attention to the task of driving 100% and ensure no distraction. Can you confidently say that? Can you say that you don't think of anything other than driving WHILE driving? Seriously, absolutes mean that the idea is not very intelligent. It just shows bias and ignorance towards the minorities (I would hope majorities, but at this point in time, I am no longer so sure).

Now please, stop littering this forum with filth. Most teens are altruistic and understand the responsibility of driving and how imperative it is to stay fully focused. Problem is, many teens just lack the capacity to do so in this age of information. What do you expect when kids are constantly bombarded with advertising and "advancements" such as instant messaging? Adverse (no pun intended) effects! Kids are taught to multi-task all the time today. This is the age that a kid cannot walk the halls for 3 minutes without an Ipod ringing in his or her ears. Problem is, kids cannot contain themselves anymore due to the constant amount of information waiting to be soaked up. Normally this would be a great thing, but the information that is waiting for the kids to be soaked up are emails offering "aid for erectile disfunction", ads offering "mortgage rates at historic lows!", and JLo's newest lover.

People wonder why ADD runs rampant? Well it lies in the spelling of ADD itself... ADVERTISING. That, compounded with cell phones with text messaging and computers with instant messaging, is corrupting society! And I am sick of it.

I'm not innocent. I am 17. I may NOT have a cell phone but it would be great to have although I find text messaging redundant and useless. I have a computer for work, research, and periodic discussion with friends. I understand limits though. Maybe I can realize and understand these things because I am gifted with some more mental ability than others, but I wish it weren't so. I wish my friends could appreciate peace - that is for lack of a better word, unconnectedness.

/rant

Sorry about that. Statements like that just incense me!!!

Japan8

I wholeheartedly agree with the drivers in Asia comment. Japanese drivers are SKILLED. Especially commerical license drivers... trucks and taxis. Taxis everywhere, especially here, are the biggest ******* drivers. However... you should seem them whip a car through these tiny neighbodhood roads barely wider than the car, with on-coming cars... they hardly even slow down. Scary... but they do it well. Following traffic laws... hahahaha. That they don't seem to have any concept of.

As far as lack of US drivers knowing/being aware of defensive driving... just getting from point A to point B... that is the problem isn't it? As Truemagellen said... training... rigorous training. Lots of education on traffic rules, function and physics of cars/driving, track/course training, street training and highway training. At the end of this training you will have the skills necessary to be a good defensive driver. You will be able to judge under what conditions (traffic, type of vehicle, weather, etc.) is it safe to do what speed. Should you break traffic laws... there should be little leniency. If you have a DUI... high fines. The limit should be 0 or at the most 1 glass of wine BAL level.

In the above situation will it be a problem to raise speed limits? It shouldn't be. You are a trained "professional". If you screw up, then you pay... just like other licensed professionals.

American society needs to get away from being setup for the lowest common denominator... excessive litigation included.

280RX-8

Right on. ^^
I was gonna respond to that because I thought it made no sense, but I held off. I agree with most of what you said, except for the part about altruistic and focused teens. If that were the case they wouldn't line up 3 cars at a time across the main drag yelling at each other, and car accidents wouldn't be the leading cause of death for that age group. Teenagers are also notorious for their Invincibility," and "That won't happen to ME."
Nobody is forcing anybody to use Inst. Mssgng., and certainly not while behind the wheel. But, most people, especially, kids, don't like to not be "connected" with some clique. That's just the way people are. All of this distracting technology just makes it plenty easier. Much of today's teen trouble stems from a lack of discipline and no sense of accountability for any of their actions(especially with jackass groups like the ACLU around).

RichardK

That may or may not be true in the US.

In the UK, teen drivers fall into two categories ultimately. I was far from normal both in my taste in cars and approach to driving.

First, teens who don't really like cars. They are taught how to 'pass the test', not how to drive. My sister and her bf are like this, and being in a car with either of them is a terrifying experience.

A corner is understood to need THIS MUCH lock, from their learner car. Ditto brakes and throttle. Put them in a bigger car and they become a barely guided missile. They are often distracted by mobile phones and the like, and actually remind me a lot of American drivers I've known; the lipstick in the mirror multitasking types.

Second, teens who like cars. MOSTLY they go for underpowered little things, because the insurance is a killer for anything half decent. They then feel the need to prove themselves on every road; but this isn't to say they are all bad drivers, merely... careless in their choice of playground.

Unfortunately, they also seem to want to combine the other teen activities. I won't say their driving is bad, but they often crash in the most remarkable places. For example, there is a straight here which I will (if I'm feeling safe to do so) happily take at 110+ before slowing for a sweeping uphill bend which is preceded by a junction for a town.

On that straight, two kids crashed. Why? They were high. They weren't even going that fast.

Competitive spirit has NO place in the car on the public road, and many teens are still pushing boundaries. I wasn't given boudaries as a kid particularly, so I make my own and they're usually conservatively set.

Obviously teens are not all represented by extreme levels of this behaviour, but they (and adults too, but less so) exhibit it to a degree. The extremes get weeded out.

Teen drivers think they know everything. It is a good feeling, that first licence, that first freedom. I was lucky in that being the neighbourhood 'kid who is into cars', I knew a lot of REAL drivers, rally drivers, people who ran classic cars, and so I was perfectly aware that I didn't know everything.

I also spent a lot of time in scrapyards getting parts for my cars. It is amazing just HOW little you want to crash, the more written off cars you see.

280RX-8

Excellent post. Especially the last sentence. That only works for some kids, though. In addition to knowing everything, as I said, many teens have the whole"I'm Invincible" thing going here in the US. I personally know a girl who fell out of the car door she was sitting on at 65 mph. Fortunately, she escaped with only a lot of skin damage and no broken bones. Oh, yeah, she was really drunk, and she may have been high as well, I can't remember. Do you think this has stopped her? Only while she was healing up. She went right back to driving around drunk, and with drunken friends, but at least now I think she is of age to drink. Not that that makes it any better.