Ethanol Fuel Discussion Here
#51
If someone has made more power on a naturally aspirated engine with ethanol than they did with gasoline there can only be one of 2 reasons and I guarantee that mileage would still suffer. Problem one is that the engine had too much compression for gasoline and timing had to be severely pulled out. This is an effect of octane only. The other thing that could cause ethanol to be more powerful assuming the 2 engines are the same and that compression is good for gasoline is that the engine tuner quite frankly sucked.
And for those entropic minded keeping score, it takes about 10% the energy to liberate the O in ethanol as it gain back in bonding to a more powerful bond directly with a C or H. (If you don't understand why, do some research on cycloalkanes and bond angles).
In my case the racing fuel we used has 110 octane, about the same as ethanol. Our CR125's do indeed run high compression. 6.2 CCV against a swept 125cc volume. We also ran a nearly perfect mixture and an HRC Det Counter.
The advantage of ethanol came from two things;
First the extra oxygen in the ethanol.
Second is the higher heat of transformation that cools the charge, and is especially valuable in a 2 stroke.
The Biland also showed a healthy increase, despite being low compression. The Biland runs just fine on 89 octane as it was designed to run. Each of the (2) 125cc cylinders has a CCV of 11.5cc's. All we did was rejet it and reset the static ignition.
I wold have tried it with the Rotary Seatta we borrowed for a while except that there are some concerns with the existing lubrication system.
As far as tuning, I run a website that hasn't been updated in two years that caters to Karting and requires a $25 subscription to get access to the tuning and Data Acqusition operations info. We still get a healthy income from renewals, and have had subscribers that include Brad Coleman, Scott Speed, AJ Allmendinger, Brian Herta, Kyle Rahal, Marco Andretti, and Jimmy Vassar. If you run into Brad at one of the local Freebirds, tell him I said hi.
#52
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psscht, CR125s are for bitches. I tune/ride RS125s
haha, j/k
I wonder if we could use something like the HRC Det counter on our RX-8s? So we could actually figure out if it was detonating, unlike the crappy detonation listener thing we have on the engines now.
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haha, j/k
I wonder if we could use something like the HRC Det counter on our RX-8s? So we could actually figure out if it was detonating, unlike the crappy detonation listener thing we have on the engines now.
#53
If only they would let us run RS125's it would have made life so much easier.
Other then rod length when we get done we practically have an RS125 when we get done.
The HRC Det counter won't work on a Rennie.
I'm guessing you've been to this track
http://www.kartweb.com/Archives/Atlanta/snippet.wmv
I rented a 250 to play there. The last time I ran there a bridge was over turn 1 and there was no chicane before turn 11 so it's been a few years. That was in a C Sports Racer.
Other then rod length when we get done we practically have an RS125 when we get done.
The HRC Det counter won't work on a Rennie.
I'm guessing you've been to this track
http://www.kartweb.com/Archives/Atlanta/snippet.wmv
I rented a 250 to play there. The last time I ran there a bridge was over turn 1 and there was no chicane before turn 11 so it's been a few years. That was in a C Sports Racer.
#55
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so, you guys wanna see my pulsejet? it's real nice, I got it on sale at target, haha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26FymT9dDzM&NR=1
YES I KNOW THERE IS A PROPANE TANK next to it, this is for start-up/warming for the diesel/gasoline.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26FymT9dDzM&NR=1
YES I KNOW THERE IS A PROPANE TANK next to it, this is for start-up/warming for the diesel/gasoline.
#56
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I actually have done a lot with fuels. I've done experiments with fuels using a pulsejet engine. I had a simple thrust measuring setup and used gasoline vs. diesel. Diesel made more thrust since it had more energy in it. This is obvious. I've done a lot of research and have done a fair amount number crunching and stoichometry. What you don't seem to understand is that alcohol fuels are more complex because of the attached oxygen.
This isn't a quote, it is a FACT OF SCIENCE.
Ethanol is 34.7% OXYGEN by mass
That's a very large percentage of liquid oxygen. It takes up a negligible volume so it's pretty much free oxygen. Air (air contains oxygen btw (~20%)) is the limiting factor of an engine as i have stated before. The "free oxygen" in ethanol more than makes up for its low energy.
V8 Kila has backed it up with numbers too.
This isn't a quote, it is a FACT OF SCIENCE.
Ethanol is 34.7% OXYGEN by mass
That's a very large percentage of liquid oxygen. It takes up a negligible volume so it's pretty much free oxygen. Air (air contains oxygen btw (~20%)) is the limiting factor of an engine as i have stated before. The "free oxygen" in ethanol more than makes up for its low energy.
V8 Kila has backed it up with numbers too.
#57
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btw this is not in anyway a knock on ethanol in general, i tihnk we should use it, its a reusable energy source that can end up costing very little (make it from the stalks of corn) and also end our reliance on imported fuels.
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that's why I put the quotes on it. I know it's not just entirely free, but it gets oxygen into the combustion chamber. I know there are some bond energy things that I'm kind of rusty on, but if you have the final enthalpies then it doesn't really matter.
I said 12,800BTU/lb for ethanol and 18,500 for gasoline. You said 23.5MJ/L and 34.8MJ/L. They're both pretty close to each other. Either way you'll make more power with ethanol because the AFR is so much lower 23.5*(14.7/9)=38.4 .
I said 12,800BTU/lb for ethanol and 18,500 for gasoline. You said 23.5MJ/L and 34.8MJ/L. They're both pretty close to each other. Either way you'll make more power with ethanol because the AFR is so much lower 23.5*(14.7/9)=38.4 .
#59
The bottom line is Ethanol cannot survive in a free market which is why the federal government has to prop it up with major subsidies.
Here's the lastest stories to back up my facts:
Ethanol: How the promise dwindled
Here's the latest example that production of Ethanol takes more energy than what Ethanol would yield which means sacrificing other resources to produce it.
Big Corn and Ethanol Hoax
This article also spells out the subsidies that the government puts on Ethanol...
Over at the NPR they report that Ethanol is worse for the environment again debunking the excuse that it's worth to waste production to save the earth.
Study: Ethanol Worse for Climate Than Gasoline
I suppose I should also point out that vast parts of the Rain Forest are being burned, and cleared to plant trees that produce sap for Biofuel. I love how everyone wants to save the rain forest when we cut down trees for homes, paper, and other needs but to produce bio fuel nobody cares.
So what have we learned?
Ethanol costs more money, takes more resources, and produces less energy than it does with oil or gasoline. It's incapable of surviving in a free market which is why BILLIONS of subsidies are paid out every year to famers and Ethanol producers. Finally, we're seeing that the investments into Ethanol are already failing and energy companies are losing tons of cash.
Here's the lastest stories to back up my facts:
Ethanol: How the promise dwindled
The cash crunch at Sacramento's Pacific Ethanol Inc. spotlights the swift decline of an industry battered by too much supply, too-expensive corn and too many increases in plant construction costs.
Ethanol – hailed by some as a "green" fuel that would reduce America's dependence on foreign oil – is in a major slump here and nationwide.
Across California, profit margins are vanishing, new plants are being canceled and some existing facilities are struggling. The state's first major plant, opened in Tulare County in 2005, has suspended operations.
Ethanol – hailed by some as a "green" fuel that would reduce America's dependence on foreign oil – is in a major slump here and nationwide.
Across California, profit margins are vanishing, new plants are being canceled and some existing facilities are struggling. The state's first major plant, opened in Tulare County in 2005, has suspended operations.
Big Corn and Ethanol Hoax
Ethanol is 20 to 30 percent less efficient than gasoline, making it more expensive per highway mile. It takes 450 pounds of corn to produce the ethanol to fill one SUV tank.
That's enough corn to feed one person for a year. Plus, it takes more than one gallon of fossil fuel -- oil and natural gas -- to produce one gallon of ethanol. After all, corn must be grown, fertilized, harvested and trucked to ethanol producers -- all of which are fuel-using activities.
And, it takes 1,700 gallons of water to produce one gallon of ethanol. On top of all this, if our total annual corn output were put to ethanol production, it would reduce gasoline consumption by 10 or 12 percent
That's enough corn to feed one person for a year. Plus, it takes more than one gallon of fossil fuel -- oil and natural gas -- to produce one gallon of ethanol. After all, corn must be grown, fertilized, harvested and trucked to ethanol producers -- all of which are fuel-using activities.
And, it takes 1,700 gallons of water to produce one gallon of ethanol. On top of all this, if our total annual corn output were put to ethanol production, it would reduce gasoline consumption by 10 or 12 percent
Congress has enacted major ethanol subsidies, about $1.05 to $1.38 a gallon, which is no less than a tax on consumers.
In fact, there's a double tax -- one in the form of ethanol subsidies and another in the form of handouts to corn farmers to the tune of $9.5 billion in 2005 alone.
In fact, there's a double tax -- one in the form of ethanol subsidies and another in the form of handouts to corn farmers to the tune of $9.5 billion in 2005 alone.
Study: Ethanol Worse for Climate Than Gasoline
Searchinger and his colleagues looked globally to figure out where the new cropland is coming from, as American farmers produce fuel crops where they used to grow food. The answer is that biofuel production here is driving agriculture to expand in other parts of the world.
"That's done in a significant part by burning down forests, plowing up grasslands. That releases a great deal of carbon dioxide," Searchinger says.
"That's done in a significant part by burning down forests, plowing up grasslands. That releases a great deal of carbon dioxide," Searchinger says.
So what have we learned?
Ethanol costs more money, takes more resources, and produces less energy than it does with oil or gasoline. It's incapable of surviving in a free market which is why BILLIONS of subsidies are paid out every year to famers and Ethanol producers. Finally, we're seeing that the investments into Ethanol are already failing and energy companies are losing tons of cash.
#61
But the real challenge is competing with oil subsidies. Before The Iraq War, over 1/5th of the Navy budget went to the cost of patrolling the middle east. Duty free imported oil amounts to over a million dollars a day. Tax free income from domestic oil production profits is another couple million dollars a day.
I'm not suggesting we take away the oil subsidies, just pointing out that in order for any fuel to compete it will almost certainly take some subsidies to launch it.
As far as bad business decisions, they're everywhere, especially in the oil prospecting industry. Look at the history of Spectrum 7, or Standard Oil, or Sinclair, or Marathon, or even my favorite, Phillips Petroleum. They've all made mega-million dollar flops. But for every failure there are four success stories.
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that's why I put the quotes on it. I know it's not just entirely free, but it gets oxygen into the combustion chamber. I know there are some bond energy things that I'm kind of rusty on, but if you have the final enthalpies then it doesn't really matter.
I said 12,800BTU/lb for ethanol and 18,500 for gasoline. You said 23.5MJ/L and 34.8MJ/L. They're both pretty close to each other. Either way you'll make more power with ethanol because the AFR is so much lower 23.5*(14.7/9)=38.4 .
I said 12,800BTU/lb for ethanol and 18,500 for gasoline. You said 23.5MJ/L and 34.8MJ/L. They're both pretty close to each other. Either way you'll make more power with ethanol because the AFR is so much lower 23.5*(14.7/9)=38.4 .
#63
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you have to take the bond energies of the products and the reactants though. and do something with them, add substract i forget and that's the combustion energy. right?
#64
It looks like the biggest speedbump for the success of ethanol is really the mis-information among the general public.
From a performance perspective ethanol is superior to unleaded gasoline.
From a cost perspective per BTU ethanol (at the current demand) is still less then gasoline. Sure people can argue subsidies and that is valid - except when they neglect the subsidies applied to gasoline.
From an environmental perspective no one can really say which is better or worse. Combustion wise there could be a slight favortism towards ethanol due to a very slightly higher by-product of H2O as opposed to CO2. But on the flip side how do you really quantify all the production, distribution, and storage emissions for ethanol and gasoline? How about the nasty little oil spills? How about the risks of deep drilling in the Gulf of Mexico?
On the flip side when it comes to energy density gasoline whallops ethanol. The majority of the US auto fleet runs fine on gasoline. But that same majority also runs fine on E10, and probably even E15.
If used everywhere in America, E10 would reduce daily import of oil by 800,000 barrels a day.
If E20 were practical for the US fleet we could eliminate our dependence on Middle Eastern oil.
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#66
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speaking of chemists in here, anybody know of a good way to oversaturate an NaCl solution to 6M one of my protocols requires 6M NaCl for DNA extraction and for the life of me i thought NaCl saturates at like 5.5M.
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The only thing I can think of is to heat the solution so that 6M of NaCl will dissolve, the NaCl solution graph (solubility Y/ heat Y) is kind of a small linear slope though so it might take a lot of heat to do this.
#69
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As far as bad business decisions, they're everywhere, especially in the oil prospecting industry. Look at the history of Spectrum 7, or Standard Oil, or Sinclair, or Marathon, or even my favorite, Phillips Petroleum. They've all made mega-million dollar flops. But for every failure there are four success stories.
#72
Every business makes bad decisions and they recover from them. If you are trying to say these companies are gone, you are wrong. For the most part they have merged with other companies. As for Standard Oil (of Indiana, there were several Standard Oils after the monopoly was broken up), it changed it's name to Amoco and later merged with BP. I'm setting in the ex-Amoco Research Center, in the Chicago area, at this moment.
The only one on that list tahst gone is Spectrum 7.
#73
Studies vary wildly on net energy production from ethanol. The factors people don't think about such as distillation of the ethanol, fuel for farm equipment, production of fertilizer, etc, have 100 different answers on energy consumption for each of these steps. You can come up with high or low net energy production if you pick and choose, even totally leave out steps.
#74
Studies vary wildly on net energy production from ethanol. The factors people don't think about such as distillation of the ethanol, fuel for farm equipment, production of fertilizer, etc, have 100 different answers on energy consumption for each of these steps. You can come up with high or low net energy production if you pick and choose, even totally leave out steps.
Moreover, various different "studies" that have come up with totally different findings used totally different inputs.
While some subsidies exist, they are mostly in the form of tax relief and again depending on who reports the numbers as they too vary. Just like the numbers for our subsidies of oil.
So the bottom line is how much does ethanol or gasoline cost to produce on a BTU basis?
The clear winner today is ethanol. And going forward its safe to bet gasoline will only go up while ethanol will either remain the same or go down.
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Here, in grape country, ethanol is an everyday part of the brewer's art. Often a wine is fermented to it's fullest ethanol potential because the government makes the vintner pay higher taxes per bottle.
In France, poorly made lots are collected and recycled for fuel. I think, if we stopped worrying about flavor, and included vine wood which is cut off and burned, but is high in carbohydrates, we could increase our national production of fuel ethanol....
However, I have some concerns with ethanol as fuel: When we get reagent grade ethanol it is 100% alcohol, but as soon as it is exposed to the air, it begins to collect water, and it may pull in enough water that it is barely above 70% alcohol.
All the fuel work is done, I assume, with 100% alcohol - but what about ethanol in fuel mixtures - does it pick up water? Does this have an effect on storage or usage? Would a ethanol -gas fuel become less able to burn, and run engines over time?
Also, gasoline can burn down to CO2 and H2O - but ethanol and toluene, ect. seem to produce aromatic compounds or carbon chains with enough components that you can detect them by smell - are we getting air that is less clean as a product of burning and more clogging for our cats?
In France, poorly made lots are collected and recycled for fuel. I think, if we stopped worrying about flavor, and included vine wood which is cut off and burned, but is high in carbohydrates, we could increase our national production of fuel ethanol....
However, I have some concerns with ethanol as fuel: When we get reagent grade ethanol it is 100% alcohol, but as soon as it is exposed to the air, it begins to collect water, and it may pull in enough water that it is barely above 70% alcohol.
All the fuel work is done, I assume, with 100% alcohol - but what about ethanol in fuel mixtures - does it pick up water? Does this have an effect on storage or usage? Would a ethanol -gas fuel become less able to burn, and run engines over time?
Also, gasoline can burn down to CO2 and H2O - but ethanol and toluene, ect. seem to produce aromatic compounds or carbon chains with enough components that you can detect them by smell - are we getting air that is less clean as a product of burning and more clogging for our cats?