Truss

Evos don't last very long on their stock clutches, either. Like all cars, as you beef up one component you have to beef up others. That's always the problem: the more you add the more you have to add. Then weight goes up, cost goes up, and you start having to strip things out to bring the weight back down. Then you start having reliability problems because you didn't beef up your X to cope with the increased Y generated by the Z you just added. That's why tuning is so hard.

It's all about balance, and I think people see the 8 as a nicely balanced package. I doubt many owners want monster HP from it. If they did, they would have bought something else. Mose people probably want a 25-50hp gain. That should be acheivable with the Renesis without going FI.

Evos and STis are easy to tune because they're FI. How do you make and FI faster? Duh! Give it a bigger turbo/intercooler/etc. NA engines are always harder to tune. Look at the S2000, which is notoriously difficult to extract extra NA HP from. Plus, the Renesis is a rotary, which means many of the usual tricks don't work in the same way. Give the market time. Reasonable power gains are in there.

T.

Hornet

While they are deep in the red and cost cutting is going to be something they would have to do I doubt they are going to cut any quality products they have. They just admitted to their past fiascos and I personally think they have something to prove now. They might be preparing for a major turn-around in the auto world. I know the Lancers (not including the Evo) seemed to be a dime a dozen for a while. I guess we will see in due time just what they change and what becomes of them!

Truss

Big changes? Like the Galant, Outlander, and Endeavor, none of which is class leading? Nissan brings us the Altima, Mazda the 6, and Mitsubishi the ***-ugly Galant??

The Evo is a great car, but there is nothing else in the Mitsubishi pipeline that excites me. The new Colt is competent, I suppose. The Eclipse replacement, if it looks like the show car, is ***-ugly just like the Galant, Endeavor, et al.

Compare Mitsu to Subaru, which has an outstanding 2005 line-up, and you can see why the former is sinking fast. Maybe they'll turn it around. God knows their parent company has the money, but they need excellent product, and in this area Mitsubishi has lost the thread.

T.

shelleys_man_06

Agreed. Mistubishi has some pretty poor quality cars, sans the EVO. That is a huge marketing mistake. It seems to me that Mitsubishi is banking on EVO's success only. If this is their strategy, I wish them the best of luck.

Magic8

I'm sorry, but as good as an EVO is, it's may purpose for the company is PR and image. If it need to pull itself out of the red, it needs to focus on the Galant, Lancer (non-EVO), Endeavor, and other high volume cars. Cars, unfortunately is becoming a commodities market and the only way to make $$$ in a commodities market is to sell a lot of your stuff.

KC_Prelude

I don't think mitsu will ever be able to compete with honda or toyota in the midsize high volume market or any other high volume market for that matter. The only way they can compete is to undercut the price of the competition (which they don't do nearly enough right now) and offer tempting financing like the american companies. Hondas and Toyotas are usually nice cars but sometimes their dealers act like they are selling ferrari's or something. Mitsu should stick to making niche cars that are actually unique insead of worthless cookie cutter crap like the galant and try to make money building better suvs. The designers at mitsu need to smoke some pot or something because nothing else has worked to make their designs interesting in the last 10 years. Bring back the starion and build a respectable 3000gt...

Hornet

I like that idea! Bringing back the Starion and a 3000GT (I would suggest they make it lighter this time but just as powerful!

Hornet

I think the Evo has been made as a car that can play 2 roles for them. The Evo was partially brought to the US because they saw how well the WRX was doing for Subaru and they figured they could capitalize off of this type of product. The other aspect of a car like the Evo was to get people into the dealership so they could see the other cars in the Mitsubishi lineup!

While Mitsubishi does not have any class leading vehicles they don't need a class leading vehicle, they just need vehicles that generate decent sales. The Altima and 6 cannot both be class leaders but are selling better than the Galant and are not really hurting their companies in sales!

revhappy

Actually, they need to carefefully assess all EVOs on the streets as already a high percentage are modded! Take my lightly modded EVO, it dyno'd at 288 HP and 295 lb.-ft. torque at the wheels with flat curves on a dyno that typically has stock EVOs dyno at 230 HP at the wheels (most STIs dyno around 240 HP to the wheels).

shelleys_man_06

Damn. BPU EVO's, or just about any factory turbocharged cars will always make that kind of power. Now, if only the RENESIS had the ability to be turbocharged/supercharged from the factory, we'd be seeing similar, or better results. Unfortunately, the likelihood of Mazda returning to turbocharged rotary engines is slim to none. Until they can reach a compromise between turbocharger technology, and RECT, our dreams of another factory FI rotary will be dashed.

Thank you for bumping this thread revhappy. September is here, and it's time for the new models.

Rxdriftingaction

don't know US version is different with JP version. JP version has 300s hp. also 6sp manual. but.. seem like JP version is better then US version. haven't compare they 2 yet. but just compare the data .. JP's is way better.

shelleys_man_06

Why are all cars' credibility determined solely on power, and what kind transmission? What about the dynamics of the system, ergonomics, etc.? It seems that no one ever talks about that, because power is so easy to interpret.

Rxdriftingaction

but.. dude. JP version and US version is using the same suspension same body .
but different boosting and transmission.

shelleys_man_06

True. However, I tend to judge cars based on overall performance; I own an RX-8. :D

Hornet

I know it's all a guessing game when these cars meet now. I remember seeing an article early in the release of the US STI in which they got very good results from a little modding. I also know from when I had my Evo that there are lots of options like Vishnu's piggyback, the Works reflash, or even a boost controller could do wonders and all while remaining inexpensive(some even pointed out that if someone looked hard enough they could get a manual boost controller for less than $100).

Out of curiosity, what have you done to yours so far?

Hornet

I don't think that is 100% true. I think it's just the timing of these cars release and the price point that the car makers seem to be aiming for. If the RX-8 was released years ago I doubt credibility would be as much of an issue (maybe from some of the drivers of the likes of the FD, Supras, etc). The reason I say this is because the cars like the Evo, STI, 350Z, G35C share something that makes them competition no matter what the manufacturers intention was, at some point when you equip these cars they all can cost about the same and all represent performance cars. Some may not be as streamlined as others or have all the extras but they all can and sometimes are being compared when people say to themselves I can afford up to about a $35,000 vehicle and I want it to be performance orientated. I know this was my experience!

revhappy

I have a buschur stage 1 and 2, which is a 3" full exhaust (w/cat), upper intercooler (ic) pipes, mini battery (needed to fit in the upper ic pipes), air filter, hallman in-cabin manual boost controller set at 20 PSI and an ECU reflash.

As for the STI, I'm no expert, so if I'm off, please correct me. From what I remember reading on nasioc.com is that the stock ECU made all sorts of problems, such as detonation and boost creep, and it was difficult to make serious power without a standalone ecu (not sure if piggyback's had any success), which of course has lots of trade-offs. I think its safe to say, the EVO has an edge in the power mod game so far. However, the stock STI's bottom end will always be tough to beat with the extra half liter and the variable valve timing.

shelleys_man_06

Yeah. Subaru's use of the EJ25T felt sort of rushed, especially in the race for AWD econobox supremacy. The 4G63 has been around for a while, and tuning it has been about the same through its generations. Had Subaru used the more powerful version of the STi EJ20, perhaps there wouldn't be so many issues with creep, detonation, etc.; these problems can be fixed through computer tuning. Either way, each engine is limited to how well you, the tuner are. If you tune it bad, you'll wind up with crappy results, or a dead engine. If you tune it well, then you'll see good results.

Of course, piggyback devices will never outrun stand-alone EMS's in terms of tuning for power, but the former is a helluva lot easier to tune. Also, as stand-alone EMS's evolve, we will see more and more of them reflecting that of the OEM PCM's. When it comes to tuning, it should be available for those who are experts, as well as novices.

VikingDJ

Tell ya what. I'll race you for pink slips against my STI, plus I'll add an extra 10k cash if you win. 1/4 mile, bets of three runs. I didn't think so. :D Anyway, if you can outdrive an evo with your rx8, then that;'s because my 89 year old grandma who can't drive manual is behind the wheel of the EVO. Not even a close comparison in performance by any stretch of imagination. However, that's now what the rx8 is all about, and to me it's a better overall car then any Evo or STI.

Hornet

By no means am I an expert either. It was just one of the first articles I read in which they tuned an STI (I think it was Sport Compact magazine) and they only did small mods. I think they got the numbers they did mostly because of what you pointed out, that .5 liter advantage. I'm sure someone has done the stroker kit on the Evo by now since they have been doing it to DSMs for some time now, so even that advantage might be close to eliminated. That sounds like a nice setup you have. Any 1/4 mile runs?

revhappy

From what I remember reading is that the power that can be made on the stock ecu and stock turbo on the sti is significantly less than the EVO can make with those components. I've heard those upgrades are needed to get STIs into the low 12s or better (the record for US EVO's with the stock turbo is 11.50). I'm not sure how much of the limitation is due to the stock ecu or the turbo, but both are pretty expensive mods (unless you go with a flash, which may not work well with a big turbo).

shelleys_man_06

The current 4G63's turbocharger is a TD-06, correct? It's pretty damn big for an OEM. I wouldn't mind seeing one of those as part of an RX-8 turbo kit.

I don't doubt such times with that turbo. Plus, it's of a different twin-scroll, twin-entry turbine design. Could you imagine if there was an OEM turbocharger that was of the VANT design? Talk about big power, everywhere.

revhappy

Nah, not a drag racer, but love to see the real-life r&d that goes on! I'm much more into twisty driving and hopefully solo II or a track day soon. I like this setup, it's supposedly good for mid-high 12s in the 1/4 mile (vs. low-mid 13s stock), shaves off about 55 lbs., and gets a few mpg better than stock! However, I forsee myself going with HKS 264 cams, bigger intercooler and injectors (already upgraded the fuel pump- forgot to mention that before) next year, as the mod bug seems to bite a lot! After that, maybe a small (good on pump gas) upgraded turbo with stock-level spool-up and perhaps a nice set of coilovers (JIC and several others make a nice set that seems to work well with the EVO), but that's a wishlist, we'll see what happens!

PoorCollegeKid

The Evo's stock turbo is a TD05HR-16G with a nozzle area of 9.8cm² IIRC.

shelleys_man_06

It's September. The EVO MR is out.

http://www.mitsubishi-motors.co.jp/EVO/index.html