Japan8

As much as I like Ford... I have to agree with CarAndDriver. No one is going to buy these POS that they are putting out. No V8?! F*uck that... I'd get an Infiniti M or Lexus G with a V8 then...

stupid Ford... very stupid.

momo

I kinda agree, but why would you want a V8 in a FWD application. I could see this in V8 in RWD but in FWD that would just be a mess. Unfortunately FORD hasn't changed over to RWD.

momo

Come to think of it, the Camary/Avalon, Altima/Maxima, and the Accord don't offer V8's and are FWD. I suppose this is FORD's direct competition, I know that DCX and GM offer RWD vehicles in the this segment.

snizzle

GM does offer V8's in FWD applications.

momo

Yes you are correct, the Impala and the Monte Carlo right?

snizzle

Never said it was a great thing. Just that they offered it. Obviously, i'd be much more excited about it in a RWD application.

bascho

Why is everyone so upset about the V6 offering.....Ford hasn't even announced the hp rating for the MKS to the public. I can assure you this is one of the greatest engines ever made by Ford and it has tons of potential. Believe me, the MKS will be competitive just as the MKZ will be with it's 265hp this year. Look for around 300hp(or more) in the MKS which IS competitive. Plus, this platform doesn't need to be RWD.....it's AWD which the population shows they prefer based on buying habits. I have driven the MKZ with the 3.5 and the AWD and I can tell you it's fast. AWD helps plant all the power to the pavement so it's actually used.

Wait and hear the output from the MKS before you bash the missing V8.......I assure you that no small displacement V8 we could affordably produce will be able to compare to the Duratech 35.

momo

Snizzle, I was not trying to flame you. I just wished that Ford would have followed Caddy and Chrysler/Dodge after all the sucess they have had with their RWD platforms.

snizzle

I agree. I'm afraid that we are still in the minority as far as being representative of the general public though despite the success of those brands. Bascho has a good point in that the public would rather have the safety and convenience of AWD year round than RWD.

momo

Well then that sounds better. Personally I don't mind a V6 at all, in this segment. Of course I would prefer a RWD vs. FWD or AWD.

bascho

Obviously I'm with you guys on the RWD thing as my last two cars have been RWD.......but we're not representative of the majority of car buyers. We are all far more knowledgeable about everything automotive and it sometimes gives a skewed view of what people want in a car. The fact is, most people don't have a clue about how a car works other than what to do with the pedals and steering wheel. Most have no idea which wheels are driving their car and nor do they care.

I'm always getting frustrated with Ford decisions like no manual trans option......but when you pull market research of buying habits it's really hard to make a business case for the added development cost. I wish everyone in the USA thought more like us and had our understanding and appreciation of automobiles.......but that is not the reality.

Japan8

They want the business case? here it is.

You THINK you have great products in the works that will get the market's attention. You've done your "market research" and conferred with your bean counters. But this is why Ford and GM are sucking rocks, Acura is praying that they will be able to seriously compete with Lexus, BMW and MB with the upcoming generation and why they will all fail. MBA's are nice... to add some refinement and better ability to some metrics in managing... it's not a replacement for real innovation, vision and leadership. Unforunately many companies... particularly large ones... have taken MBA's as a replacement.

For all of Toyota's faults today... they at least have a clue in some areas... Lexus is one. They didn't aim at BMW and MB with the first gen LS using a FWD or AWD platform. They didn't go for the 5 series with a FWD or AWD GS. They didn't finally go after the compact sports sedan segment with a FWD or AWD platform IS. They went with RWD, because that is what this market is about. Just because you offer AWD doesn't mean anything. Automatic only? Not even MB offers only AT on ALL their cars (most... yes, but not all). Infiniti has lagged for years with a lackluster product until recently, but even then... Nissan offered some MT models and stuck with RWD (I know the G20 was FWD)... particularly with the rebirth of Inifiniti... which happens to be doing quite well now. So why the would you offer FWD and AWD only? That's what Audi and Acura do... seeing as they AREN'T the LEADERS of this market... that's a mighty stupid thing to do.

Market research... like statistics... it only gets your so far. Numbers and such can be manipulated to basically say whatever you want. More importantly... your research is only as good as your methods. These guys are the best? Well... they are human aren't they? If their results go against what seems to be common sense... then they are missing something. In the case with this rebirth of Lincoln... they are missing passion.

BMW claims to be "the ultimate driving machine". They have consistently been ranked at the top of their class... particularly the 3 Series. The closest and toughest competitors... for the 3 Series that's the G35 and the IS... both of which are RWD, have an AWD option and offer MT. BMW builds thier cars with passion... builds them for enthusiasts. They build their cars for people who like to drive. It doesn't sound like Ford is doing that with Lincoln.

If Ford is going to rebuild Lincoln, they need to look at the competition and aim to raise the bar. Not match them or just beat them... but raise the bar for that product's market segment. How does Ford think that Lexus got so far ahead? Ford needs less MBA's and bean counter types in charge and more people who have passion. The MKS and MKZ look to be sorely lacking in this area... inside and out.

Tirminyl

Experience vs Paper. I agree Japan8.

Japan8

265hp... the new G35 sedan and especially coupe will have more than this. The IS350 (305hp) has more than this too and the BMW 330i has 255, but the coupe has 300hp.. Let's not even bring the M45, 545is and GS450 into this.

Ford =

bascho

I think the MKS is better looking than any BMW. If don't know what it looks like, here is a pic.

bascho

We'll see what they have in 2009 when gas is $4.50 per gallon. Plus, I am not saying the MKS will only have 300hp.....it could easily have more. Also, 400hp means very little if the TCS has to retard the throttle to keep the wheels from spinning. I would rather have 300hp and AWD than 400hp and RWD. Horsepower is only as good as the traction available. This explains why a STI with 300hp has a faster 0-60 time than comparable RWD cars with 400+hp.

Again, I am not saying I wouldn't love a RWD platform for Ford mid-size sedans....but it just doesn't have any advantages over AWD. It has performance advantages over FWD.....but the take-rate on the MKS will be more than 50% AWD.

CarAndDriver

As if its really going to look like that. Its Ford afterall.

bascho

I've seen the production 'bucks'......it's going to look exactly like that.

bascho

Japan8.......did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? Haven't seen you this torqued on a thread in a long time

Japan8

beauty in the eye of the beholder... but the MKS and MKX look like ***...
http://www.lincoln.com/reachhigher/

And I don't like the current 5 Series (if I could afford a M5... I'd pass because it's so ugly). And what's up with all the freaking mandatory iDrive... which has been complained about by all the reviews and even some owners.
The 6 Series and M6 (especially) is pretty hot.
The e90 3 Series... looks bloated from the side. The *** is OK... not great, but not horrible. The front I like. The coupe... proprotions look a bit wrong from the side (too long from the B pillar back), hood seems a bit long and the rear is so so... bland. The interior sucks *****. The e46 was better hands down.

Japan8

[quote=bascho]It's 2:03am here. I woke up quite a long time ago.

I'm "torqued" because I've been a "Ford man", and especially with the company walking the tight rope that it is... I hate to see them make what I know is going to be a mistake. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but those who've known me for a long time know that I have a VERY good record of being right. But I also have a record of few ever actually following my advice... so I have a long record of "I told you so" too.

You live in America and gas prices have suddenly spiked. The average person is generally a dumb sheep. So they whine about the sky falling.

The sky isn't falling.

If you can't afford $5 a gallon for a 25 gallon tank in a vehicle that gets 8-16mpg, then you shouldn't be driving it. Buy something that you can afford to own.

People that can afford $40,000 - 60,000 cars aren't going to be so affected by paying $5 a gallon. They may whine, but they can afford it and will pay to have the car they want... the luxury, performance and prestige.


You do know that weight has something to do with this. i.e. GTO vs STI And a GTO will blow away a Evo or STI on the highway... even Ike easily admits to that.

AWD weighs more, costs more, has more things to potentially go wrong, causes more driveline loss and makes your gas mileage worse. To make it even worst... the whole US doesn't live in Michigan or even the rest of the northern snowy states. Florida, Texas and California all have more electoral votes for a reason and it don't snow in those places.

bascho

I agree.

If this was true than why are SUV sales down? 75% of large SUV's are over $40K and those are the vehicles with the largest decline in sales right now. AND, that sales decline is being blamed on fuel cost.


I understand the power-to-weight ratio.....but the EVO is not that much lighter than a GTO. Plus, I said 0-60......I know fully well what a GTO can do on the hwy as I get a ride in one at lunch every other day.

I agree AWD adds weight.......but it's benefits far exceed it's detriments. By your reasoning no one in the south owns 4x4's or AWD vehicles because they don't have snow!!!! I think you have been away from the USA for too long......it's all about badges and letters here now. Vehicles have greater sales based solely on the letters "AWD" on the decklid......regardless of whether the person needs it or not.

I don't mean to be pissy to you because you and I normally agree on things......but you have a bug up your *** today for some reason.

Japan8

That's a little harder to compare... really. A Lincoln Navigator vs BMW 5 Series? Kinda apples an oranges there.

I knew I forgot something in my last post. The VQ35 doesn't get better gas mileage than the 3V 4.6 MOD. Just because it's a V6 doesn't really mean squat. Producing say... 300hp will require a certain amount of energy. That's just math and physics. The only way you save fuel is by doing it more efficiently so that you get closer to this theoretical perfect number. A 300hp V6 vs a 300hp V8... both NA... there isn't much difference there. A FI I4 vs NA V8... that's a difference story. I'm nor saying that Ford should use T/C or S/C I4 everywhere, but going with a V6 over a V8 for the same horsepower target because it supposedly will be more fuel efficient sounds more like bean counters + marketing ploy than actual reality.

I figure that you know... just stating the obvious for the peanut gallery...

The weight difference is more than a female passenger. That's more than enough.

And these two cars appeal to different people. Some hard core enthusiasts will cross-shop them, but in the end... what are your needs and what are you looking for in a car?

"muddin'"

Seriously. Driving off-road. Going hunting. Pulling your boat. Pulling your trailer. Pulling your car to the drag strip. I'm from the south. Trust me.

I don't doubt you, but I don't see this being a long term thing. Just like SUV's. Don't stake the farm on it. Read my previous post... the average person (everywhere) is dumb. They are all sheep. They don't know their head from their ***... they are buying AWD because the read somewhere/saw on tv/heard from their friend/etc. etc. that RWD is dangerous and AWD is safer.

Been out of America too long? You don't follow my posts for the length of time I've been here, huh? I've talked about the Legacy GT and other Subaru over other cars and other AWD cars. Legacy's are VERY popular in Japan. You can't go a day without seeing a Legacy... especially the Legacy wagon. See some Imprezzas and STI too. The Japanese like to go skiing in the winter... travel from Tokyo to ski slopes and if you happen to live outside of Tokyo... places like Yamagata, Niigata, Shizuoka, Miyasaki... it snows like freaking hell and the Japanese don't salt at all and rarely use any sand. the snow plowing is medicore too. So you can imagine why people love Subaru AWD...

I don't like the new Lincolns at all. I am VERY disappointed. Both in terms of styling and offerings (platform, engine and such). I want Ford to do better... to succeed with the turn-around. But I don't see these cars doing it... both intellectually and more importantly... my gut feeling... I hope I'm wrong... but I really doubt it.

bascho

Different vehicles....but same people with disposable incomes. You said if they can afford a $40-$60K car they don't worry about gas prices......I disagree and so does the current market trend.

Are you being serious right now? Just because two engines have the same hp does not mean they have the same fuel efficiency. A small displacement engine will always have better fuel economy than a larger displacement engine under comparable fuel and ignition designs.



I think you proved my point that AWD appeals to the entire country and not just us Northerners.


Your providing examples of people buying AWD vehicles because they need the capability. I am talking about people in the US buying AWD vehicles because it says "AWD" on the back.


Like my dad said to me when I was bashing the new Navigator's design, "You aren't the intended customer." That was the Navigator.

I personally love the design of the MKS and think it's probably the best looking Lincoln ever. It's not for everyone......but what is?

Japan8

I'm having a hard time putting this down on paper at 3:36am, so bare with me.

It's BECAUSE they are VERY different vehicles. Even if the owners are the same people with disposable incomes and the vehicles cost that same. Perception. I doubt very many with $300,000 and up income are trading in their large SUV for a VW Jetta or Honda Civic. They are getting Lexus GS, BMW 5 Series... or crossover SUVs. Their gas mileage has gone up... not enough to offset the money they speny buying a new car. Same thing with current hybrids (particular when common driving habits are account for). But people do this because of perception. The media bashing of gas guzzling large SUV helps with this (not that I am an advocate of everyone driving these cars).

I sat down once and looked at the annual numbers for a RX-8 vs a GTI. If you picked up a base or sport RX-8 at thousands less than a loaded GTI, your savings in gas are pretty small. It really doesn't amount to much until you've done enough mileage... which means unless you do a lot of miles a year or will be driving the car for 10 or more years... you're better off to just get what you like.

You know that and I know that... but like I said... the VQ35 vs the 3v 4.6 MOD.

Don't forget powerband and weight will also have an effect on this too. I'm refering to the Civic Si and RX-8... having to run your engine in the upper rpm for any real performance is obviously going to drop your fuel economy.

*sigh*
Those are trucks and SUVs, not luxury sedans.




Your providing examples of people buying AWD vehicles because they need the capability. I am talking about people in the US buying AWD vehicles because it says "AWD" on the back. [/quote]

And it's stupid to build your business recovery plan based upon the average sheep's current fad. That's what got Ford in this situation in the first place with SUVs. That's a short-sighted business view. nothing personal, but that is VERY endemic of US businesses... that is why they almost never succeed in Japan (which requires long term planning, investment and commitment).


You have a point... but only until a certain point.

I don't see why anyone would buy one. That's the problem. I posted this in another thread. Why would anyone buy a MKS over an IS or 3 Series or new G35?

You keep trying to laud AWD and talk about market research. All those cars offer a AWD option, but they are primarly RWD platforms. Their sales speak for themselves. If everyone was so hot on AWD that a company should stake a brand's recovery on it, then why is Toyota doing that with Lexus? Same for Nissan... the new G35 (I know it's an updated FM platform) or the M?

As much as I love Ford... their track record for the last 20-30 years speaks for itself. Toyota doesn't take a lot of risks and markets very mainstream... so they have a bunch of boring cars. But when they do take a risk... like starting a new brand or hitting a new market segment... they take a very calculated risk. They could have easily built the new IS on a different platform (it shares with the JDM Toyota Crown)... one that is FWD and/or AWD. but they didn't... and for good reason. BMW, Lexus and Infiniti don't seem to have any problems moving their cars and are widely recognized as the market leaders.