DrDiaboloco

Nice attempt at fogging the issue. Volvo may have developed the platform, but it is a SHARED PLATFORM nonetheless... Shared with and designed by, ultimately, Ford, Mazda AND Volvo.

I'll repeat my prior point, that somehow Mazda can build and sell the 3 in the United States, on a platform SHARED with the Focus that the rest of the world gets. No amount of explaining how the Focus would have to be re-engineered to be sold here holds water when what is fundamentally the same product from another division can be sold here for 14-and-change.

If Ford unwittingly designed the 3/Focus/S40 platform so that it couldn't be sold in the USA, Ford is in much worse shape than I thought. If they designed the car that can be sold profitably by Mazda and is somehow unfit for FORD to build (but only in the USA) profitably on PURPOSE, then their product planners are total nit-wits.

Has it occurred to you that the reason 6 sales dipped when the 3 showed up isn't necessarily because the cars are too similar? In my mind (and the mind of many others) the cars aren't "comparable", but I digress... Could it be that the 3 is better in comparison to its competitors than the 6 is in relation to ITS competitors?

As for the supersized-6 that's upcoming in the new model... You attribute its necessary size increase to internal competition from the 3. How about they HAVE to upsize it to compete with, well, its actual competitors? The skinny on the 6 has always been that it's too small in comparison to the CamCord competition, a situation that has only gotten worse since the 6's introduction because of the recent introduction of the cavernous Camry. No doubt the next-Gen accord will be larger, too.

CarAndDriver

^+1

The 6 has always got great rave reviews from journalists and the driving public that enjoys a fun to drive sedan/hatch/wagon.

Unfortunately for Mazda, the huge majority of midsize sedan drivers are more interested in roominess and brand versus sportiness. That is where the Camry and Accord have excelled--giving the buyers what they want.

Clavius

I heard some mention Toyota and their um Boring cars. Just had to toss this in here, Toyota as a whole has a plan and its already implimenting it. Scion is their first time buyer brand usualy teenage to college students, Toyota itself is for those out of college and for those with a starting family, Lexus is for those who are now well off and want a lux car. To me this is a awsome plan if not the smartest ever to me get them while they are young and keep them for life. My mother has owned Toyota's since the late 80's starting with a Corola then the Camry and now the Solara. Will she ever buy a Lexus probably not since to her a car is just a mode of transporation (still confused with that one since the Solara is the "sport coupe" version of the camry alot of fights about that one.).

Gm to me atleast is starting to do something similar to this slowly sure but again to me I see the transformation.

Ford well they own several car brands but I dont sence a natural brand evolution if you will. What is their lowest what is their highest? I know as Bascho pointed out that most of their lost was due to the buyout which I knew of but still damn thats alot of money lol.

You said we have to look forward and not in the past but problem is the past is very strong and as the saying goes "The Past will haunt you". If they wish to stay true to their Bold Moves campaign and get away from the past I say start actually making them. Do something in regards to your cars so that one of my friends who isnt a car person come up to me and say "Oh my god did you hear what Ford is doing/coming out with?". Bring over the new Focus screw the fact it might cost more to make, hell advertise the fact that is it with a sales line of "You wanted it your getting it! Ford Bold Moves!". That will grab attention and get people talking beyond "Man I seen the new Mustang looks XXX".

I dunno just a few minor rants I had to type out lol.

playdoh43

when a company like Ford experience losses like this, it means its restructuring and becoming more efficient and more competitive. Its good news for ford fans. ... ...

bascho

2005 was the last year of the old body style for the Explorer.....does anyone have a link for 2006 sales figures?

I wasn't sure on the Ranger......but since Ford has spent zero money on that vehicle and is still the #3 in sales......I call that a success. I think they were #1 until last year. That market is tough because these so called small p/u's are usually priced too high. Most would take a full-sized truck for an extra grand.

You will not miss the Freestar in a couple of years

I used the $24K Cobalt SS price from that Car & Driver comparison......I didn't know you could get the SS for $19K (that's a steal).

I don't think you hate Ford.....in fact people that are most passionate in their remarks are really just upset because they want more from Ford. It's the ones that quickly dismiss the company that are lost causes. On any given day in the office I am ripping the company a new one. I am not shy about what the company needs to do better.

bascho

I never said Mazda and Ford weren't sharing the platform.....only that Volvo was the mastermind behind it. Too many people on this forum think Mazda is the greatest company in the world and that every other Ford brand steals it's designs.

I'll repeat my prior response......the UAW will not allow the mechanized assembly of certain subsystems used in the Euro Focus.....thus the differences in the North American version. Mazda does not have to deal with the UAW at the Mazda 3 plant to my knowledge. Also, the Mazda 3 is not the same as the Euro Focus.....the Euro Focus is a better car than the Mazda 3 sold here in the states.


Is it possible that some customers that went into the Mazda dealer looking at the 6 decided to buy the 3 instead? Sure. Does that hurt the sales of the 6.....obviously yes. Is the release of the 3 the only reason for the declining sales of the 6......of course not.

Why can't it be for both reasons? Does every decision have to have one reason?

bascho

That's exactly the result I'm hoping for.

DrDiaboloco

*ding ding ding ding ding*

DrDiaboloco

Source?
This statement is kind of odd coming from you... You have put forth arguments for which you supply only one answer. My responses to same point out that the one answer you supply probably isn't the only answer, and now I'M the one who is being accused of the single-answer thing?

There are MANY reasons for the decline in sales of the 6. The 3 stealing sales from its bigger brother can obviously be part of it, but I doubt it's even in the top 3 reasons for the 6's decline.

Clavius

Ok I might get hate from this comment but...
Has Ford ever put any thought into just saying "Screw the Unions!". I understand in the begining they were formed for the betterment of their jobs and wages but now they seem more like a cancer to the companies they work for. Every few years you hear about strikes or possible strikes and how they wish more money (always money) and better health care (and again why is it always better wasnt the past offering good enough). Yet the same companies they are demanding more from are loosing money left and right.

I forget which company it is off the top of my head (I have a bad memory at times bah!) but their plants are operated by NON-Union workers and aparently the workers are happy and taken care of very well AND the company makes a decent profit from the made car. Those points are what made that story stick out in my head. If Ford got rid of them it would be a Bold Move to say the least, unrealistic sure but 'eh.

And yes I do wish Ford to do well they are a American Icon pure and simple. If the day ever comes when on the news they say "Ford is out of business" my heart will sink. They have the tools to be sucessful I've seen some of their design studio artist on shows like Cars and they get it sure they've been Shelby vairants but still I see those cars and my jaw drops and I start to think "why couldnt this kid help design a actual production car.".

bascho

I can tell that you care about the direction Ford is taking. Many of your points are things I've asked myself. It's not that I think Ford can do no wrong......but I just got a little defensive when I read 4 pages of Ford bashing.

I work for the company so I take negative comments personally.

".....I'm a Young dammit not a worm....."

bascho

Me.

I'm giving brief responses because I don't feel like typing all night. I could give more because this issue is very personal to me......it's my livelihood.

bascho

No one company is strong enough to say screw the unions. If GM, Ford, DCX and some of the larger suppliers all said screw the UAW......well than that might work. This day is coming folks.......it could be 2007 with the contract negotiations.

Make no mistake about it.....the UAW is very powerful.....something like 500,000 members. Factor in union solidarity (when different unions back each others play), and you're talking about millions of people.

The best way to kill the unions is from the inside out. The members have to be sick of being in unions to really take them down.

Clavius

True again part of me gets annoyed when they keep demanding more when the company they are asking it from is publicly stating loss quarter after quarter. Be awsome to hear the Unions say "We'll keep the same contract nothing new" or say "We'll take less" (but that will never happen lol). Sorry about the off-topic subject but to a point its only slightly off topic.

dos

I wish Ford would bring over some of the models they have overseas. It seems Ford already has some of the cars to cause some excitement, we just don't get them here in the USA, just the watered down crap.
http://www.caranddriver.com/carnews/...-focus-rs.html

DrDiaboloco

I'd like to see a road test (or tests) comparing the "too good for stupid Americans" Focus to a Mazda3... And an S40, for that matter. Except in areas of styling, suspension tuning, and interior quality I'd be surprised if the differences were anything other than minor.

Getting away from all of this, I hope you understand my real heartburn here, Bascho. The Rest-Of-The-World Focus is apparently an outstanding car, and for reasons that they should've and could've thought of before and during the design process, we are denied said car. Ford could theoretically have a world-beater right here at my local dealer and they simply leave us hanging. This is how the Japanese et al have chipped their way so far into the market... In general, they don't sell us cars that are "just good enough", they try to sell a market-beater EVERY time. They don't always succeed, but in general, they don't leave the good stuff back home and sell us something that is merely okay or on life support.

As for the now oft-mentioned manny-tranny-free Fusion, there's been speculation on this thread that Ford doesn't want to take risks and sell vehicles that have limited appeal. If we assume that Mazda will sell such a vehicle in the upcoming 6 (new, more powerful engine hooked to a stick), it would be very easy for Ford to do the same... No major redesigns, no special tooling, no expensive specialized manufacturing processes or scads of engineering time. I'm not talking turbos and active suspensions here, just gimme THREE pedals on the floor, a mild body kit along the lines of what Mazda offered as part of the sport package on my '03 M6S, some bigger wheels and possibly a sportier "tune" to the suspension and my next sedan will have an oval on the trunk. This is not a whole new model or something prohibitively expensive to build, it's just a regular sedan turned up to "11". They did it with limited success in the SHO, they did it (via Mazda) with my old 6S, and without even going to the extent and expense of offering a bespoke engine, they could VERY easily do it again with a 270hp-ish Fusion.

No stick? No deal. And it's not just because I'm some looney with Castrol in my veins. I know several non-motorheads who don't want automatics and will always choose a stick over a slushbox. I am not an Army of One, there's a big enough contingent of stick-lovers out there to justify the minimal expense of offering one as an option in the car... there's a reason why buyers clamor to find a manual-equipped V6 Accord, for instance. There's few of them available and more people want them than the supply can satisfy.

C'mon, Ford. PLEASE build a car that creates a "clamor".

Japan8

The mention of the Accord V6 reminds me of the G35c 6MT... the same thing happening there. AT and SMG/DSG transmissions CANNOT EVER replace a traditional MT... and Ford's MBA's in charge want numbers? Get them from VW. You see the phenomenon with the new GTI... there are many owners who decided to get a DSG instead of MT... decided to try it on the test drive or the salesperson talked them into test driving... and they loved it. The come on the MkV forums and rave about the smooth shifting and fun of playing with the paddles... until 6 months later we hear about them trading in the DSG GTI for a MT GTI... the reason is that the DSG was fun at first, but then it got boring and they got lazy... always leaving it in D instead of shifting yourself. They missed the clutch and the double H. And really is it... DSG is a good AT replacement, for MT drivers it is nothing more than an amusing toy that they will eventually get bored of.

CarAndDriver

I disagree with the V6 Accord statement. Do you have any hard evidence that it sells well?

From my personal experiences talking to a couple dealers, the manual V6 EX sedans
are slow sellers. I was at SJ area Honda dealer who said they traded it away cuz it just sat there. Another dealer near me had one and I think it had been sitting for awhile. The only V6 6M that sells well is the Accord coupe.

I drove the 6M V6 Accord sedan and thought it was a quick ride, but you could tell it was a firmed up family car suspension. The body roll....

When it comes to family/mainstream sedans, the V6s are powerful enough now that most people are going to choose ATs.

bascho

So how many of you can I sign up as guaranteed sales if we offer the Fusion with a M/T? Let me know......because sales talks and bull **** walks. I can stand here all day talking about how I want a manual trans in this car or that one.......but unless I'm willing to buy it doesn't matter to the person building it. You think offering a manual trans is so cheap and easy.......you don't have a clue. Ford doesn't hate manual transmissions as some as you might believe......but if they cannot get a return on their investment there is no point.

Do you know how Ford knows it won't get it's ROI on manual transmissions in sedans? Because they've been selling cars for 100 years!!!! Look at any sales data for every company and you will see the sales mix of manual transmissions v automatics. For Muscle and sports cars there is a high % of manual sales in the mix so you will always see a manual trans option in the Mustang. Sedans have a very very low % of manual trans sales outside of high performance versions. Since the Fusion is not currently offered in SVT trim you will not see a manual transmission. Look back in history, all SVT cars are either manual only or manual optioned.

DrDiaboloco

It doesn't "sell well" when compared to the auto, but multiple visits to two Honda dealers to get my mitts on one left me frustrated. I experienced the same thing when looking for my Mazda6 back in the day, too.

Maybe it's region-specific, but finding manuals is difficult because of their relative rarity. When they show up, they typically sell quickly. I finally found a MT Accord on the Honda lot after I stopped looking for it (if that makes sense!).

DrDiaboloco

I doubt that anyone here can guarantee that they'll buy a MT Fusion, or any other car for that matter, until they can get their hands on it and actually DRIVE it. I will tell you THIS, though. I WON'T look at a Fusion unless it DOES have a MT. That is one reason why I bought the Mazda6, at the time it was the only mainstream sedan with any sporting intentions that offered a MT with the V6... At least that was in my price range.

With the Focus before it, I had to have my car shipped from a dealer 280mi away because I wouldn't buy one without a stick (twenty-something Focii on the lot and not a one of them had a MT). I probably could've gotten one that was closer if the MT was the only thing I insisted upon, but I wanted ABS, too. And a sunroof. The dealer experience was so frustrating that I almost walked across the street to the Honda dealer to see if they were willing to sell me a car equipped as I wanted.

Maybe I'm some sort of looney after all... but I've only owned two cars in twenty years that had automatics, for a total of about 2-1/2 years, and those only because they were hand-me-downs from mom and dad. When it came time to spend my OWN money, anything without a manual was (and is) immediately stricken from the list. Must run in the family... My mom and dad have only purchased one car with a slushbox since 1972 (the '72 Monte Carlo and the '86 Sable, both of which are, not coincidentally, the only two auto trans cars I have owned).

Japan8

Except for that embarrassing last gen Taurus SHO... OH! And there's the F-150 Lightening (all gens)...

I think what we need is in specific business terms, not general theory, why it will cost Ford more money to offer something they already have. The parts exist in number in inventory. The paring of the transmission with that motor has been tested. AND even though there is no money in MT, they DO offer one on the 4cyl model. If it was such an utter loser then they should just skip it all together. But instead they offer it on the 4cyl, but not on the V6. Come on now. This is the explanation that is missing... why is it so prohibitive for almighty 100 year history Ford, but little 'ol Mazda is doing it (as is BMW, VAG, and a few others). What specifically is making is so prohibitive? Don't just tell me lack of sales... make it like GM does... MT is optional which costs extra (see the GTO). Are the logistics too expensive? The extra plant capacity too expensive? Extra part purchasing too expensive? What are we outsiders missing here?

You want a guarantee? One I can say is that if a SVT Fusion... 275-300hp, AWD and MT... arrives at under $30k... performance like the Mazdaspeed6 and LegacyGT... sign me up. Dead serious. If I had inside info... a guarantee that they will make this model and it will roll out in about a year's time... I'll give them my money for a deposit and get some beater to drive for a year after moving back to the US. More realistically? Well... a Fusion with AWD (I hate FWD), the 3.5L at 270hp (more is better of course), manual transmission... and they gotta dump that ugly *** 4 spoke steering wheel. It's petty... I know, but the rest of the interior isn't so exciting to start with and that steering wheel just sinks it all. But if they could do that... I'd be interested. And I am ALWAYS someone who is willing to put his money where his mouth is.

Japan8

Sounds like how I shop for cars normally. If a manual isn't offered, I don't even bother to look any further at it and strike it from my list. A manual is an absolute MUST.

bascho

Have you ever driven a full-sized truck with a stick? There is nothing performance about a 6 inch throw and a 18 inch long shifter. The 1997-1999 SHO was made auto only because of the unique engine used......no manual that Ford had on the shelf would work.


Like I said before, you and I have similar taste in autos. I would jump on a SVT Fusion in a heartbeat. I loved my Contour SVT as well as my 2 Mustang SVT's. I long-time member of the SVT Club of America and will continue to be.

The point here is that even if everyone on this forum loves and only buys cars with manual transmissions and everyone they know only buys manual transmissions that still only adds up to .00001% of the population. The sales #'s don't lie. Even companies that always offer manual for every application show overwhelming preference to automatic transmissions. If Ford can make money off a manual option then they will offer one. I guarantee there is no Ford mandate stating Ford will **** off potential customers by not offering a manual transmission no matter how many people will buy one.

You have no idea of whether or not Mazda is going to offer a manual trans on the up coming 2008 Mazda 6 with the V6. The current Mazda 6 (2006/2007)does not share it's V6 engine with the 2006 Fusion.......but in 2008 it will. If Mazda offers one in the 2008 Mazda 6, then that means Ford can share the cost and possibly offer it in the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr. I have not heard concrete data stating Mazda is offering one on the V6.....have you?

Japan8

Dodge Ram SRT10...

Yeah... I know the SHO ended up with only the slush box because it was a unique engine...

Yeah... we do have similar tastes in cars. I remember looking at and test driving a Contour SVT in 1999... it was a nice car. I was sad to hear it got the ax and thought it was America's loss for not "getting it"... But you know... I'd say that today isn't yesterday and sports sedans have become quite popular. Ford should really reconsider taking the risk on one. If there was a SVT Fusion... I'd be on it in a heartbeat too. The Fusion's exterior styling I kinda like... and if they can do something about the steering wheel, the interior isn't bad. The only thing is what we've been discussing...

We all know that manual transmissions cost less to build than automatic transmissions. That is why I suggested going the GM route... make the automatic the standard transmission and offer the manual as an option... which you charge extra for. The lower production cost, plus extra charge should help to offset the fact that manual transmission sales is lower than automatic.

You know... I never said that every model should have a manual transmission. The Ford 500 doesn't need one.... unless a SVT version is made. The Explorer and Expedition don't need manual transmissions either. But the Focus and Fusion should have one.

As far as the next gen Mazda6 goes... who knows. Right now Mazda doesn't offer the Mazda6/Atenza with the V6 in Japan and so I don't know if they will with the next gen model. But I can say one thing... Mazda specifically has been trying to be the Japanese automaker that offers a manual transmission whenever reasonable... goes together with their sporty image. And it is something that is well-noted by JDM auto magazines. This all just makes me think that Mazda will want to offer a manual on the next gen V6 mazda6 as well... The fact that costs can be shared across other models with Ford is only more incentive to go ahead and make that decision.