brillo

Ford is still going to own 15% of them, which means LV gets access to the ford parts bin so to speak for the stuff no one cares about.

rx8wannahave

What GM are you talking about? The 1980's version? Suburu couldn't hold GM's wash cloth and GOD knows they shouldn't design cars after the WRX (no offense to the owners, fast but as pretty as a cinder block) . I don't know if some of you paying attention but GM is kicking MAJOR butt lately and its' only getting better.

I can't wait for the new Camaro and Holdenish-Pontiac Grand Prix with the LS2.

I don't want to see Ford go under, while (I've spoken to Brillo about this) after researching some more into them I'm not buying another Ford product. I'm thinking of grandfathering in Mazda/RXetc but that would still be like buying from Ford...so I don't know.

Anyway, regardless of my reasons why I'm done with FORD I don't want to see them go under. GM and Ford are the last US car companies and for American's you should be shamed in wanting to see a company with soooo much history go under.

I hope GM beats down the door, and FORD follow's GM's example...but as for me and my house, no more Fords for me.

Landon

Its not so much we WANT them to go under, its the fact they just cant get with the times. have you been to any of the 2007 auto shows? I was at the one in dc last weekend and saw ford and GM's line up... I was not impressed. You think they would learn that people want FUEL ECONOMY by now but they just aren't getting it. Everything they showcased (minus 2 -3 concepts) were all GAS GUZZLERS. new pickups that get 13mpg, new avalanche's getting a whopping 17mpg highway and my personal fav, the new ford crossover suv thing that gets an amazing 15-17mpg! But wait theres more... its holds 7 people WOW... Who the hell cares about that when the damn thing constantly needs to be fueled! Downstairs were all the foreign cars and EVERYONE down there had some fuel efficient cars (minus the exotics like lambo and Ferrari). Mercedes was showing off the new diesels, Honda, and Toyota were showing off the latest fuel efficient cars and hybrids and the same goes for Hyundai who is already pretty damn efficient. With all that being said ford and gm need to get with the times and start putting stuff out that people actually want and not the SUV's and massive trucks anymore. If they dont learn that then they both deserve to go out of business. This is not about being anti American or an American car hater, its about reality. Obviously they have not realized that the stuff they are putting out NO ONE WANTS

Oh and my comment about GM taking lessons on car building... have you taken a look at the interiors? Its almost the same damn thing from car to car. Ford does the same thing... you can find the same interior (radio, console and other electronics) from car to car. The least they could do is try to make it look a little different and make the car stand out some. Also the interior is BORING and cheap looking, Atleast the japaneese car makers make the consoles "look" hightech and appealing. With the american car companies it looks like cheap plastic... As simple as this may sound but if the car does not have something that makes me go "wow thats pretty cool looking" on the inside I dont want the car. American cars just dont have the curb appeal to me. have you looked at the interior on a a mustang or a high end pontiac lately? BTW I bring up the pontiac because I just had one as a rental and thought it makes a damn good example.

Check the 3 pics I have upladed as an example. One is a ford mustang, the other is a Mercury milan and the theird is the mercury SUV.... I can give WAY more if you want to prove my point about the interiors being the same from car to car. (I used ford for the example here)

Edit: Let me make 1 correction about GM, the saturn line was fairly impressive regarding the "Green line" vehicles but the MPG was still about the same as their non hybrid counterparts. kudos to GM for at least trying.

rx8wannahave

Landon, I hear ya...but I think you are short changing GM. The pic's you posted are from Ford who I think we all (even Brillo) aint too pleased with. Also, the fuel economy thing makes me mad too...it's pretty pathetic.

BUT, check out these numbers/pics:

Impala

V6 3.5L 21-31mpg, 3.9L 19-29
V8 5.3L 18/27

Corvette
6sp LS2 V8 18/28 (remember, this thing has 400HP)

Cobolt
Verious engines 22-34mpg

Aura
V6 3.5L 20-30mpg
V6 3.9L 20-28mpg

Outlook
V6 3.9L 18-26mpg (not bad for a mid size SUV)


If you compare GM’s numbers to the competition:

Honda Pilot
18/24mpg (with about 25+ less HP and not as roomy than the Outlook)

Honda Accord
I-4 24-34mpg
V6 3L 20-30 depending on stick or auto (the Impala does not get blown out of the water, and beats it with a standard V6 version Impala)

Note: Does that mean I’d get this over that, no…BUT the standard V6 Impala cost about 18K and has better fuel economy than the Honda Accord. Also, the interior is NOT that bad. Honda is still the better car in my opinion but NOT by much)

S2000
I-4 2.2L (if I remember right) 20/26mpg (it takes the Vette in the city, the Vette take it in the highway while BLOWING it’s doors off).

I go to stop there, Toyota is the fuel economy leader from what I can tell. Their sweet V6 in the Camry get’s 22-31 IMPRESSIVE while giving out 265+ HP and the Rav4 while a small SUV gets almost as much so they are the fuel economy kings in my opinion.

All that I listed is to show that GM is NOT that far behind and in some cases they lead.

I got the above from: http://www.fueleconomy.org/feg/findacar.htm

Oh, the looks:

Corvette
http://www.motorpasion.com/archivos/...tte_z06-03.jpg

Aura
http://driving.canada.com/carbuild/i...xblack5573.jpg

Outlook
http://us.autos1.yimg.com/img.autos....7s-outlook.jpg

G6
http://www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHI...90-396x249.jpg

Solstice/Sky
http://news.windingroad.com/wp-conte...P---yellow.jpg
http://seriouswheels.com/pics-2007/2...-1920x1440.jpg

I was going to post interior pic’s also, but ran out of time.

I’m not saying GM is finished nor that their new products are the best cars out there but they are A LOT better than I think you give them credit for. If at the auto shows they brought out garbage, that’s not good…but they have several cars they are thinking about that will make GM even stronger. Remember...they stole the show with the concept Camaro only a little bit ago.

The current Malibu is OK, nothing more but the concept one was A LOT nicer to look at. Their interiors are getting better and better with the newest cars (not to happy with the Solstice, but Sky was better while their SUV’s, Trucks, and Saturn interiors are looking great. The Impala interior while a bit plastic (even our RX8 is a bit plastic) looks A LOT better also.)

So, no…I don’t work for GM and frankly I feel like they owe me about 1K for advertising them (lol), but we got to look at the positive side that shows GM really is paying attention. Ford, well…they are getting there but I hope that they get there before it’s too late.

Regardless, I too want to see more from GM & Ford and feel they still have a good walk ahead of them.

Ford...my none car suggestion, don't' lose buyers by trying to push social/moral agendas....maybe you got your head in the wrong game, or up some place not good.

Landon

Where did you get the MPG numbers? Was that from GM or was it from an outside source like car and driver? That does make a difference

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Ford did *Helped* Mazda back then, but now Ford suck major **** cuz of Crappy managment , Bill Ford fuxked it up BIG time.

Lets just wait a few more yrs then we'll see where Ford gonna go.

Landon

I think they can come back and really do something but they need to stop with the SUV's and gas guzzlers and make a hybrid line of cars or do something like tesla motors did. Just incase you all are not familiar with tesla, check out their site... http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1

Incase some of you missed it, that is a 100% battery powered car that is available now. The specs are impressive for sure. It has a 250 mile range, charges on a regular plug, has a "travel charger" for when your out of town and goes from 0- 60 in a little over 4 seconds! Now granted the high end model of that car is 100k but I think as production goes up, cost will come down.

rx8wannahave

You must have missed it...from the GOBment, but let me tell you right now that I for one do not go to car mag's for fuel economy because for some reason they ALWAYS get worse fuel economy then me (by 2-3mpg) so my guess is they have lead foots instead of drive these cars normally. Heck...my 8 should be getting 15-17mpg per car mag's yet I've never gone under 18.6 with a lifetime average of just a bit over 19mpg. Remember, flatlands of FL and I'm not stuck in traffic for hours a day.

Landon

But that makes you a rare exception. Most Americans who work in cities are stuck in traffic so car and driver numbers (for example) would be a better estimation for most people. It would be great if we all lived in flat land areas with no traffic but the reality is that most people do and there is no way around that. By the way they don't have to have lead foots, stop and go traffic is more than enough to kill fuel economy. In a perfect world all of us with our 8 would be getting the 18/24 that we are supposed to but reality is that most of us (myself included) are happy to get 16/20. Its for the reasons stated is why I use outside sources for numbers in most cases.

rx8wannahave

Well, more flatland than anything else. I do get in traffic but I don't get STUCK in it. But I know, not everyone can avoid it. If I ever change jobs and I'm stuck in traffic more I'll update my numbers.

I hear ya, but in the least the baseline numbers still are accurate (Honda, Toyota, or for GM) so at least in regards to that they are not getting killed. In my opinion, Toyota and GM are the best for fuel economy.

I like GM's system, stick in a low rpm gear for great highway #'s so the avg over city/highway goes up significantly. If the 8 had a better 6th we could get more than 24, while at 75mph (mind you I've never done a full tank in the highway with the 8) I find the 24 to be more like 22mpg which is TANK like....lol.

Landon

What I find to be more efficient is the technology being used (I think its Chevy using it) to turn off unused pistons when they are not needed like at highway crusing speed. I think its called selective fire or something. Now if people could take that and use it with a hybrid, I think american car makers could be on to something.

Sephiroth

Current hybrids are crap. End of story.

Ajax

agreed and they will stay that way until the internal combustion engine is no longer attached to the drive train.

Japan8

True. However...

Mazda can't make a decent larger displacement engine to save their lives. Ford does though. Ford can't make a decent small-displacement engine to save their lives. Mazda does though. Starting to see the picture?

Mazda designs the base of the small engine and Ford the larger engines. Each side takes the base and tunes it as needed for their application.

Then we have chassis platrforms... co-developed and shared all around. Even with Volvo (Mazda3/Euro Focus/S40).

They are too intertwined today even without the shares being used as collateral for Ford to be able to just sell them off.

Japan8

Heard that the EPA testing methods are being revised so we have more real world numbers than we are getting today.

swoope

iTrader: (5)

ah,

you are smart like tuna again..

dont fix the blame, fix the problem!!!!

beers

CarAndDriver

Mazda seems to provide Ford with decent chassis' that it can't design itself.

Japan8

Mazda hasn't PROVIDED Ford with any of the current chassis. They were all CO-DEVELOPED. Mazda benefitted. The Mazda3/Euro Focus/S40 chassis was designed first to be good enough for the luxury class Volvo which meant that the an economy car got the benefits of a chassis well-beyond its class.

Icemark

yeah, but would you buy a RX-8 Hybrid???

4 wheel drive- electric motors in the front, conventional in the rear and a RX-8 that gets 30% better fuel economy and 10%-15% better accelleration.

ArvinC

...many of the posters here are absolutely correct: Mazda is one of two Japanese auto makers that produce nothing but motor vehicles. The other one is Toyota. Subaru, Nissan, Mitsu, Honda and Isuzu are into heavy machinery, industrial sectors, shipping, manufacturing, etc. Mazda simply does not have the size of Toyota to stand alone as an auto maker, nor do they have the back-up business of the others to generate additional income.

Second, Ford should be supported; it's demise would only weaken the auto industry as a whole, let alone the US economy. Ford and GM are the super-heavyweights of not only the industry, but of the US economy. Their existance supports billions of dollars of profitable revenue from hundreds of other companies and suppliers. To see them fail is to see us weaken as a global economy and player. How valuable is Ford? They currently lose $20+ million dollars a day, yet economists and financial experts cannot bring themselves to "devalue" its stock listing on the NYSE...Ford stock remains a viable stock to investors. Now that's saying something about what kind of pockets Ford plays with. Which brings me to my last point...

Having Ford as a "Global" partner/owner of these brands makes sense in the grand scheme of things. Because of the deep pockets, resources and global agreements with all their suppliers, Ford can rescue, sustain and grow companies. These companies would find it hard to do this all by themselves. Jaguar, Aston, Volvo and Mazda have all blossomed under this arrangement. Sure, we all bemoan that switch gear in a 150K Aston looks like the switch gear from a Mustang, but the real important fact is that the DB9 even exists! Aston in its former guise would have never had the resources to create such a car...or such a lineup as it currently has (world-class, every one). Same goes for Jaguar, who now has the speed to re-shuffle its lineup and production to shift with the market. (Remember how long the previous XJ sedan and coupe "lived" before Ford came along?) And let's not forget the other resources Ford and GM can throw a company's way other than money: test-tracks, wind tunnels, engineering and design studios, government representation and lobbying, etc. Ford has done only good by being involved with these companies.

As enthusiasts, we all decry the "sameness" of Ford and GM, critcizing them for big, boring and uninspiring vehicles. But, every once in a while, the magic hits (Ford GT and the Z06...yummy! ) for them. And while the Mustang or Explorer are not my cup of tea, I applaud Ford for giving cars like the RX-8, DB9 and XJ-R Type a chance to exist.

Just MHO, of course...

Arvin C

PhreakdOut

Slight correction:

Toyota owns Hino, which is their Medium Duty commercial truck business. Specializing in huge diesel engines. The new Tundra will have a HD version by 2010 which will have a 7.0L Hino built diesel. (Possibly turbocharged)

Toyota also has TIEM (Toyota Industrial Equipment Manufacturing) which makes lift trucks (fork trucks) out of Columbus, IN.

Toyota's industrial equipment falls under the traditional family name of Toyoda. Lathes and mills. The original Toyoda company began with looms.

Outside the US, Toyota actually has some production of Pre-fab housing and recreational motor boats. (A business abandoned in the US due to faulty ballast systems that ended up costing Toyota a fortune.)

Toyota has many subsidiary corporations that deal in many different industries. ToyotaTsusho, for example, specializes in shipping, logistics, trade and now steel processing.

(Sorry for the digression.)

ArvinC

Wow...didn't know about the Toyota/Toyoda relationship. Thanks for the info!

Arvin C