GM vs Toyota a numbers game
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: University of Maryland
Posts: 2,510
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
GM vs Toyota a numbers game
from auto week forum
http://www.npr.org/news/specials/gmv...omparison.html
U.S. Market Share
Source: First nine months of 2005, Harbour Consulting
GM:
26.8%
Toyota:
13%
Vehicle Production in North America 2004
Source: GM & Toyota
GM:
5.2 million
Toyota:
1.44 million
Profitability per Vehicle
Source: 2005 Harbour Report
GM:
Loses $2,331 per vehicle
Toyota:
Makes $1,488 per vehicle
Net Income in the First 9 Months of 2005
Source: Harbour Consulting
GM:
$4.15 billion loss from North America operations off-set by profits in Europe and Asia for an overall loss of $3.8 billion
Toyota:
$7.89 billion (¥921.7 billion, converted at 116.81 yen to $1)
Number of Plants in North America
Source: GM & Toyota
GM:
77, all unionized. Plans to close 12 facilities by 2008 (see press release).
Toyota:
12, three unionized in Long Beach, Calif., Fremont, Calif., and Tijuana, Mexico.
Average Plant Capacity Utilization
Source: Harbour Report 2005
GM:
85%
Toyota:
107% using overtime workers
Production Time per Vehicle
Source: 2005 Harbour Report
GM:
34.3 hours, 2.5% improvement since 2003
Toyota:
27.9 hours, 5.5% improvement since 2003
North American Workforce
Source: GM & Toyota, Dec. 2005
GM:
White collar: 36,000
Production: 106,000.
Retirees: 460,000
Toyota:
White collar: 17,000 Production: 21,000 Retirees: 1,600
Average Hourly Salary for Non-Skilled, Assembly Line Worker
Source: Center for Automotive Research
GM:
$31.35/hour
NOTE: Includes idle workers still on payroll and those on protected status.
Toyota:
$27/hour
NOTE: Includes year-end bonus.
Health Care Costs per Vehicle in 2004
Source: 2005 Harbour Report & A.T. Kearny Inc.
GM:
$1,525
Toyota:
$201
Average Labor Cost per U.S. Hourly Worker
Source: GM & Toyota
GM:
$73.73
Toyota:
$48
Worldwide Sales in 2004
Source: Harbour Consulting
GM:
8.9 million
Toyota:
7.7 million
Global Market Share
Source: Automotive News annual ranking of the world's automakers by sales and production, figures for 2004
GM:
13.2%, down from 14.6% in 2002
Toyota:
10.9% up from 10.6% in 2002
Worldwide Vehicle Production Projected for 2005
Source: 2005 Harbour Report
GM:
9 million
Manufacturing operations in 32 countries, vehicles sold in 200 countries
Toyota:
8.4 million
Manufacturing operations in 26 countries and regions, vehicles sold in over 170 countries
http://www.npr.org/news/specials/gmv...omparison.html
U.S. Market Share
Source: First nine months of 2005, Harbour Consulting
GM:
26.8%
Toyota:
13%
Vehicle Production in North America 2004
Source: GM & Toyota
GM:
5.2 million
Toyota:
1.44 million
Profitability per Vehicle
Source: 2005 Harbour Report
GM:
Loses $2,331 per vehicle
Toyota:
Makes $1,488 per vehicle
Net Income in the First 9 Months of 2005
Source: Harbour Consulting
GM:
$4.15 billion loss from North America operations off-set by profits in Europe and Asia for an overall loss of $3.8 billion
Toyota:
$7.89 billion (¥921.7 billion, converted at 116.81 yen to $1)
Number of Plants in North America
Source: GM & Toyota
GM:
77, all unionized. Plans to close 12 facilities by 2008 (see press release).
Toyota:
12, three unionized in Long Beach, Calif., Fremont, Calif., and Tijuana, Mexico.
Average Plant Capacity Utilization
Source: Harbour Report 2005
GM:
85%
Toyota:
107% using overtime workers
Production Time per Vehicle
Source: 2005 Harbour Report
GM:
34.3 hours, 2.5% improvement since 2003
Toyota:
27.9 hours, 5.5% improvement since 2003
North American Workforce
Source: GM & Toyota, Dec. 2005
GM:
White collar: 36,000
Production: 106,000.
Retirees: 460,000
Toyota:
White collar: 17,000 Production: 21,000 Retirees: 1,600
Average Hourly Salary for Non-Skilled, Assembly Line Worker
Source: Center for Automotive Research
GM:
$31.35/hour
NOTE: Includes idle workers still on payroll and those on protected status.
Toyota:
$27/hour
NOTE: Includes year-end bonus.
Health Care Costs per Vehicle in 2004
Source: 2005 Harbour Report & A.T. Kearny Inc.
GM:
$1,525
Toyota:
$201
Average Labor Cost per U.S. Hourly Worker
Source: GM & Toyota
GM:
$73.73
Toyota:
$48
Worldwide Sales in 2004
Source: Harbour Consulting
GM:
8.9 million
Toyota:
7.7 million
Global Market Share
Source: Automotive News annual ranking of the world's automakers by sales and production, figures for 2004
GM:
13.2%, down from 14.6% in 2002
Toyota:
10.9% up from 10.6% in 2002
Worldwide Vehicle Production Projected for 2005
Source: 2005 Harbour Report
GM:
9 million
Manufacturing operations in 32 countries, vehicles sold in 200 countries
Toyota:
8.4 million
Manufacturing operations in 26 countries and regions, vehicles sold in over 170 countries
#3
X-Sapper
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: where angle's fear to tread
Posts: 2,392
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
^from looking at that i'd have to agree.......wonder if they are going to get on their horse and fix it asap...wel maybe a fast fix is a bad idea....bu who cares they should fix it (slow or fast)....
come on GM make america proud
![Frown](https://www.rx8club.com/images/smilies/frown.gif)
![Smilie](https://www.rx8club.com/images/smilies/smile.gif)
#6
No, the union doesn't realize what they're doing to GM. It should be obvious to GM, and I'm sure they try to explain until they're blue in the face. However, the union will shrug it off as lies.
#7
Mazda Mole
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 498
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The unions used to be the change agent but now they are the status quo. When anyone is in the status quo position they always resist change. The world is very different now, so the unions has to wake up and figure out how to adapt or go the way of the dodo birds.
#8
Yup. I look at these numbers, and have to wonder how the union can't see that they're part of the problem.
Profitability per Vehicle
GM:
Loses $2,331 per vehicle
Toyota:
Makes $1,488 per vehicle
Average Labor Cost per U.S. Hourly Worker
GM:
$73.73
Toyota:
$48
Damn, it doesn't get much more obvious than that.
Profitability per Vehicle
GM:
Loses $2,331 per vehicle
Toyota:
Makes $1,488 per vehicle
Average Labor Cost per U.S. Hourly Worker
GM:
$73.73
Toyota:
$48
Damn, it doesn't get much more obvious than that.
#9
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: University of Maryland
Posts: 2,510
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
GM has been trying to downsize for years, but the Union threatens to strike if GM tries to close too many plants. Theres all kinds of pressures from the unions that limits the management of GM from doing a lot of things to turn around the company. Give GM some credit, they know the union is making them uncompetitive,they are just very limited in terms of what they can do about the situation. The union it self is a jumbled mass of ineficiency also, with people that have different ideas fighting amonst each other, its very ugly.
the bottom line is, whats best for GM's interest is in conflict with what the workers believe is in their best interest. closing plants would put whole towns and thousands out of work, so even though each worker knows its not in GM's best interest they tend to just worry about them selves. which is short sighted since its killing GM and theyd loose their jobs anyway later on, but its totally natural human behavior. The threat of strikes puts immense political and financial stress on GM.
the bottom line is, whats best for GM's interest is in conflict with what the workers believe is in their best interest. closing plants would put whole towns and thousands out of work, so even though each worker knows its not in GM's best interest they tend to just worry about them selves. which is short sighted since its killing GM and theyd loose their jobs anyway later on, but its totally natural human behavior. The threat of strikes puts immense political and financial stress on GM.
Last edited by playdoh43; 12-22-2005 at 01:53 PM.
#10
Follower of CHRIST!!!!!!!
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 3,241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
460,000 retired people aint helping the matter either....WOW!
But...I'm not into taking Ma and Pa's money away, but mybe the union should start by droping average hourly rate from $34 to 30...then cut the hours to build a car from 34 hours to 30 hours.
Call it the wannahave 34/30 plan...lol
What' sad is how can you take about 6 hours more per car than Toyota and build cars with less quality?
Gosh...the US car companies are in worse shape than I thought.
But...I'm not into taking Ma and Pa's money away, but mybe the union should start by droping average hourly rate from $34 to 30...then cut the hours to build a car from 34 hours to 30 hours.
Call it the wannahave 34/30 plan...lol
What' sad is how can you take about 6 hours more per car than Toyota and build cars with less quality?
Gosh...the US car companies are in worse shape than I thought.
#11
Bummed, but bring on OU!
I listened to GM's 3rd quarter earnings conference call, recently. They have an extensive turn-around plan in place. North America was really the only place they lost money. They gained a few % in Europe. Doubled profit in Asia Pacific (includes Oz). Stayed the same in Latin America. GMAC increased profit by 8% while taking a hit with Katrina. They made a deal with the UAW to cut healthcare costs by 25% (aprox. $1 billion savings). They're implementing displacement on demand in more vehicles and persuing a line of hybrids. They still have billions in liquidity, they can afford the losses this year. I think the unions are finally realizing they're part in the equation and are beginning to cooperate. Don't expect them to change drastically in a short amount of time. GM will be back in force in 1.5 to 2 years.
Last edited by therm8; 12-22-2005 at 03:49 PM.
#12
Registered User
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Hell in the desert
Posts: 445
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by rx8wannahave
460,000 retired people aint helping the matter either....WOW!
But...I'm not into taking Ma and Pa's money away, but mybe the union should start by droping average hourly rate from $34 to 30...then cut the hours to build a car from 34 hours to 30 hours.
Call it the wannahave 34/30 plan...lol
What' sad is how can you take about 6 hours more per car than Toyota and build cars with less quality?
Gosh...the US car companies are in worse shape than I thought.
But...I'm not into taking Ma and Pa's money away, but mybe the union should start by droping average hourly rate from $34 to 30...then cut the hours to build a car from 34 hours to 30 hours.
Call it the wannahave 34/30 plan...lol
What' sad is how can you take about 6 hours more per car than Toyota and build cars with less quality?
Gosh...the US car companies are in worse shape than I thought.
Time to step into the 21st Century!
#13
Extraordinary Engineering
Originally Posted by therm8
I listened to GM's 3rd quarter earnings conference call, recently. They have an extensive turn-around plan in place. North America was really the only place they lost money. They gained a few % in Europe. Doubled profit in Asia Pacific (includes Oz). Stayed the same in Latin America. GMAC increased profit by 8% while taking a hit with Katrina. They made a deal with the UAW to cut healthcare costs by 25% (aprox. $1 billion savings). They're implementing displacement on demand in more vehicles and persuing a line of hybrids. They still have billions in liquidity, they can afford the losses this year. I think the unions are finally realizing they're part in the equation and are beginning to cooperate. Don't expect them to change drastically in a short amount of time. GM will be back in force in 1.5 to 2 years.
#14
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: University of Maryland
Posts: 2,510
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
i actually agree, theres only so little GM can do about their labor problems, it will take a long time for them to turn it around. By then, they will probably no longer be the dominant firm that they were. IMO socialistic entities such as unions just makes firms uncompetitive.
#15
Klingon Grammarian
Ok, so here's the one bit I don't understand:
Don't all of the US car manufacturers use the same union? How is it that the union is crushing GM more then Ford or Chrysler?
Don't all of the US car manufacturers use the same union? How is it that the union is crushing GM more then Ford or Chrysler?
#16
Extraordinary Engineering
Originally Posted by Krankor
Ok, so here's the one bit I don't understand:
Don't all of the US car manufacturers use the same union? How is it that the union is crushing GM more then Ford or Chrysler?
Don't all of the US car manufacturers use the same union? How is it that the union is crushing GM more then Ford or Chrysler?
Edit: They would not have as many retirees if they were more efficient over tha last 30 years.
Last edited by DarkBrew; 12-22-2005 at 10:37 PM.
#17
Mazda Mole
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 498
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Krankor
Ok, so here's the one bit I don't understand:
Don't all of the US car manufacturers use the same union? How is it that the union is crushing GM more then Ford or Chrysler?
Don't all of the US car manufacturers use the same union? How is it that the union is crushing GM more then Ford or Chrysler?
#18
Follower of CHRIST!!!!!!!
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 3,241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Time to step into the 21st Century!
About unions, we better find a middle ground and solution because I for one wish we had a union but at the same time I do realize the trouble they can cause.
But...what do we do, "trust" the big corporations? HA...and another HA, all they do is squeeze more and more out of the employee's benefits. They are highly untrustworthy...
...yet, while the unions have a noble beginning they often fall into corruption or basically blackmail the corporations which hurt the company.
So...what's the solution?
I'm still in shock over the 460K retired people...wow!
#19
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 493
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Magic8
nearly half a million retirees with nice benefits will definitely kill the company. I don't think the other auto makers have it this bad.
I believe that these are numbers for North America only. When did Toyota open their first plant in North America? I would assume that Toyota has more retired workers in Japan.
-Peter
#20
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by rx8wannahave
460,000 retired people aint helping the matter either....WOW!
*IF* GM's pension fund was properly funded and managed originally then this shouldn't be a cost-center to them. However, so many of the big American companies have bungled their private pension plans (many later as the U.S. government to cover their shortfalls or complete obligations). I wouldn't be surprised if GM was losing their shirts paying for the retirees due to mismanagement of their pension fund assets. Obviously, that wasn't the intent when the pension plan was set up, right?
Didn't one of the airlines just demand a $10-Billion pension fund bailout to keep them out of bankruptcy?
#21
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: St. Louis Missouri
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GM got a huge concession on health care for retirees. It's either half the loaf or nothing, so they're taking soem concessions.
While I agree that the unions are totally unreasonable, anti-progress, and full of people who just want more than they are worth (see the average hourly wage numbers) the management at GM has known what the parameters are since they were set, so their costs aren't a surprise to them.
And you have to admit that GM has some pretty crappy vehicles, many are unattractive, and their old pushrod V6 engines are terrible - and most descend from a Buick design of the late 1950s.
I think the only way to save GM at this point is to consolidate Buick, Chevy, and Saturn, and kill GMC (or kill Chevy trucks) and sell Hummer as a sub-brand of GMC or Chevy trucks. The marketing and other costs saved would be tremendous. And about this time next year, GM's going to be looking for crumbs to meet payroll. They should continue to hammer on the unions to get realistic, but most of that damage is done.
the combined division would have a more vehicles, but this way, they could kill the redundant minivans and SUV's, and some overalpping cars, and just keep one complete line. It could have a plain jane, middle, and luxury version of each (they do anyway).
Pointiac continues to have a profitable niche, as does Cadillac.
I don't think that GM is realistic enough to do anything like this, and therefore, I think they will either be in bankruptcy eventually, or forced to sell Hummer or Cadillac or some profitable name/division, probably to Toyota. Way to go, USA!! Scary, isn't it?
While I agree that the unions are totally unreasonable, anti-progress, and full of people who just want more than they are worth (see the average hourly wage numbers) the management at GM has known what the parameters are since they were set, so their costs aren't a surprise to them.
And you have to admit that GM has some pretty crappy vehicles, many are unattractive, and their old pushrod V6 engines are terrible - and most descend from a Buick design of the late 1950s.
I think the only way to save GM at this point is to consolidate Buick, Chevy, and Saturn, and kill GMC (or kill Chevy trucks) and sell Hummer as a sub-brand of GMC or Chevy trucks. The marketing and other costs saved would be tremendous. And about this time next year, GM's going to be looking for crumbs to meet payroll. They should continue to hammer on the unions to get realistic, but most of that damage is done.
the combined division would have a more vehicles, but this way, they could kill the redundant minivans and SUV's, and some overalpping cars, and just keep one complete line. It could have a plain jane, middle, and luxury version of each (they do anyway).
Pointiac continues to have a profitable niche, as does Cadillac.
I don't think that GM is realistic enough to do anything like this, and therefore, I think they will either be in bankruptcy eventually, or forced to sell Hummer or Cadillac or some profitable name/division, probably to Toyota. Way to go, USA!! Scary, isn't it?
#22
Follower of CHRIST!!!!!!!
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 3,241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, I hope that does not happen and I hope GM and Ford take the crown back...it would be a shame to lose the last true American car companies...a HUGE shame...
#23
GM and Ford have had these high labor costs for years and did little to change. It was the rising cost of fuel and the their narrow focus on high-profit gas-guzzling SUV's and trucks that got them into trouble this year. Three years ago when gas was still inexpensive, GM and Ford were getting fat off the profits of their product pipelines......but things have changed and Ford and GM had no quality vehicles in 'new consumer market'. It takes years to develop vehicle platforms and fuel efficient powertrains ......so automakers must have a diversified product line-up or a crystal ball. Ford and GM had neither and that is why they are in trouble. Are GM and Ford capable of making great fuel-efficient, visually appealing cars to please the new consumer market......absolutely. It just that the US will not see these models for several years. Toyota and Honda had the foresight to have a diversified line-up of fuel efficient models to compete in a fuel conscience US market......that is why they are cleaning up right now. Sure the Big 3 have labor cost issue and health cost issues....but that is nothing new.
I personally feel the UAW and all unions have lost sight of the reason they exist. If you can believe it, Ford and GM (and Delphi) have job banks. A job bank is when a union member gets paid to stay at home, often receiving 100% of their pay. GM alone has more than 5,000 union employees in a job bank. No ****. You telling me that that is fair! I thought that unions were created to protect the working man against unfairness. Job banks are perfect example of the union going too far. And base salaries of $25-27/hr.....are you kidding? I think that is extortion....$60-80K a year for work that requires almost no skill or intelligence???? If Ford or GM was to have open enrollement for factory jobs at $15-18/hr....there would be lines of people down the street. Unions need to go away.....and I think in the first half of this century.....we'll see that happen.
I personally feel the UAW and all unions have lost sight of the reason they exist. If you can believe it, Ford and GM (and Delphi) have job banks. A job bank is when a union member gets paid to stay at home, often receiving 100% of their pay. GM alone has more than 5,000 union employees in a job bank. No ****. You telling me that that is fair! I thought that unions were created to protect the working man against unfairness. Job banks are perfect example of the union going too far. And base salaries of $25-27/hr.....are you kidding? I think that is extortion....$60-80K a year for work that requires almost no skill or intelligence???? If Ford or GM was to have open enrollement for factory jobs at $15-18/hr....there would be lines of people down the street. Unions need to go away.....and I think in the first half of this century.....we'll see that happen.
#24
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: St. Louis Missouri
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by bascho
GM and Ford have had these high labor costs for years and did little to change. It was the rising cost of fuel and the their narrow focus on high-profit gas-guzzling SUV's and trucks that got them into trouble this year. Three years ago when gas was still inexpensive, GM and Ford were getting fat off the profits of their product pipelines......but things have changed and Ford and GM had no quality vehicles in 'new consumer market'. It takes years to develop vehicle platforms and fuel efficient powertrains ......so automakers must have a diversified product line-up or a crystal ball. Ford and GM had neither and that is why they are in trouble. Are GM and Ford capable of making great fuel-efficient, visually appealing cars to please the new consumer market......absolutely. It just that the US will not see these models for several years. Toyota and Honda had the foresight to have a diversified line-up of fuel efficient models to compete in a fuel conscience US market......that is why they are cleaning up right now. Sure the Big 3 have labor cost issue and health cost issues....but that is nothing new.
I personally feel the UAW and all unions have lost sight of the reason they exist. If you can believe it, Ford and GM (and Delphi) have job banks. A job bank is when a union member gets paid to stay at home, often receiving 100% of their pay. GM alone has more than 5,000 union employees in a job bank. No ****. You telling me that that is fair! I thought that unions were created to protect the working man against unfairness. Job banks are perfect example of the union going too far. And base salaries of $25-27/hr.....are you kidding? I think that is extortion....$60-80K a year for work that requires almost no skill or intelligence???? If Ford or GM was to have open enrollement for factory jobs at $15-18/hr....there would be lines of people down the street. Unions need to go away.....and I think in the first half of this century.....we'll see that happen.
I personally feel the UAW and all unions have lost sight of the reason they exist. If you can believe it, Ford and GM (and Delphi) have job banks. A job bank is when a union member gets paid to stay at home, often receiving 100% of their pay. GM alone has more than 5,000 union employees in a job bank. No ****. You telling me that that is fair! I thought that unions were created to protect the working man against unfairness. Job banks are perfect example of the union going too far. And base salaries of $25-27/hr.....are you kidding? I think that is extortion....$60-80K a year for work that requires almost no skill or intelligence???? If Ford or GM was to have open enrollement for factory jobs at $15-18/hr....there would be lines of people down the street. Unions need to go away.....and I think in the first half of this century.....we'll see that happen.
Could not agree more with both paragraphs. Both parties have done nothing to improve the situation except pretend like they have some sort of monopoly on car buyers. Its a shame. Now the question is, can GM pull out in time? Like I said, I'm not convinced.
#25
Originally Posted by myfuncar
Could not agree more with both paragraphs. Both parties have done nothing to improve the situation except pretend like they have some sort of monopoly on car buyers. Its a shame. Now the question is, can GM pull out in time? Like I said, I'm not convinced.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
ShellDude
RX-8 Parts For Sale/Wanted
5
10-01-2015 09:55 PM
{WTB/WTT} WTB Right Undertray Riser and Guard
archon
RX-8 Parts For Sale/Wanted
3
10-01-2015 06:08 AM
Tsurugi
New Member Forum
0
09-07-2015 08:27 PM