Japan8

I'll give you the Thunderbird. That was a bad idea from the beginning. The GT... I have said it before... it only has styling cues. You migh THINK it's almost a copy, but it's not. The original is bubbly... round. This car has sharp edges. no double bubble roof (for helmets). This car has the showcar/futuristic spartan metalic/chrome interior. Where's the overdone or bad retro? most people love this car and would love to have one. The PT Cruiser, weany Prowler, HHR... the list goes on... they are bad retro. The 300C isn't so bad actually. It is at least different than the standard "formula" that boring *** Toyota uses (which is why Toyota will eventually fall if they don't get smarter).

Lincoln, Mercury, Jag.... those are Ford Group's luxury brands. Volvo and Aston Martin too. The Ford nameplate is the main, big selling nameplate, but it's just common, inexpensive cars. I haven't had the chance to really shaken down a new Mustang, but I like the change in looks. I was never a big fan of the fox body and thought it good when the revised fox body came out. Better interior? Sure... I wish Ford put more money into it, but if that made the car more expensive or forced them to put less powerful engines in the car (God forbid there was no longer a V8 option)... it wouldn't be a Mustang and few people would buy it. Maybe you don't care... you'd get this car... you have the money or less power doesn't matter to you. good for you. The Mustang has survived because it has been a good value and Ford knows this. The V6 is pretty quick for what you pay and it can be modded up.. engine and suspension to be a fairly competent car. This is what most people buy. The core Mustang buyers... they want cheap horsepower and many like to drag race. None of them care much about having a BMW level interior. none of them could afford the car if it did. Simple business and marketing. Ford DID address quality issues... they moved production to the Mazda6 plant. Maybe the type of plastic used and design isn't your taste, but in terms of reliability... if the Mazda6 has proven to be done well, then this car will too.

Speaking of the Mazda6, the new Ford Fusion is based on a stretched Mazda6 platform which I think is also going to be used for the next mazda6 (as it is rumored to be getting bigger). The Volvo S40 is built on the Mazda3 platform. Current and former engineers from Ford on this forum have talked about their experiences working on projects with engineers from mazda japan, europe and going to those regions as well. There are plenty of articles about the design managers at Mazda who came from Ford and vice-versa... same for management (it also applies to other Ford group brands as well). There is plenty of sharing... each brand has its own target market. Today.... in terms of reliability... it's damn close. Especially when Honda is considered. What? They are so well-built? NOt my experience in the US (my JDM was fine though. my US car was JP built), not the experience of friends in Canada and not the experience with some other friends. Maybe just anecdotal evidence, but that kind of thing is what helped to lead people away from US brands when they were at their worst and to Japanese brands.

I haven't sat in a Caddie recently so i can't say what the interior is like, but the styling is unique... different. I like it. GM interiors in general... I remember checking out a TransAm and a GrandPrix GTP in 1999... it was horrible. The plastic so cheap and that could have been overlooked somewhat if they at least did things like "finish" the headliner... there was no moulding or anything along the edge at the back window! Rough edges on the cheap plastic on the back of the seats in the TransAm... I was very disappointed.

I've said the same thing earlier about Chryslers. I can live with less than BMW interiors, but no 1980's Chevette interiors please.

The value thing is moot. Entirely chicken and egg. If no one buys it, it won't hold value, and no one really will buy it if I won't hold value. That has nothing to do with the car itself and more to do with the market, economics and sheep mentality.

BlueEyes

Contrary to what you and I might wish, most of the world doesn't care if their cars are fun to drive. They care that they get them to point A,B,C reliably, efficiently, and comfortably. Toyota delivers a winning formula to the majority.

playdoh43

yep, blueEyes would be more fit to run GM than all your people that only care about sports cars.

rx8wannahave

^True, Toyota and Honda build quality products no doubt. It's a car for people who see cars as nothing more than a tool. But...I hear Toyota is about to change things...we shall see.

rx8wannahave

Where did this come from? Left field sounds about right...

We are sports car people so our focus will be on sports cars but it's not like we gave a mission statement or something, relax...this is just simple conversation. GM and Ford would not be in the situations they are in if they were not messing things up.

Relax...

Tigster

Here is the problem with the GT, the styling Cues are from the old stye GT40. A car that was not even worth the exec's to patent the name for future use. I know the frame and engine is very up to date and can run with the best of them. But if they wanted to make a mark on the supercar category they should have done what Dodge did with the Viper. Come out with a very distinctive New design put a huge motor in it and sell it in a competitive market (under 90K). Almost any manufacturer can make a car at the GT's performance level and charge 120's (if you can find a dealer to sell you one for that). But where GM and Ford is really lacking is in the car segment of their line ups, everyone knows that they own the pick up truck market.

The proof that GM needs to liven up, (I know we have been talking about both GM & Fords) just ask any of the 30,000 people it just laid off. Or the people who had to come up with the Employee Pricing just to move the cars off the lots. Or ask yourself why when an american car comes on to the market the majority of them have rebates within the first 2 weeks of being released, where japanese cars tend to have small or no rebates even after a long time of being on the market.

Lastly the value of the Camry or Accord in far from "moot" the reason they do hold their value is people know of the relibility of the cars and hence they are more likely to pay more than for an American car. Call them sheep if you want but the sheep are the ones who do regulate the supply and demand. If they thought the cars were not reliable then they would not pay top dollar for one. There are numerous tests that show they just a better all around car manufacturer.

Japan8

No disagreement from me. Chrysler is the worst. They take chances and sometimes hit the mark with design... especially exterior, but the quality and sometimes (well many in my experience) reliability sucks. GM'S designs have about all sucked for sometime. The ones that are decent to nice are exceptions only (CTS/CTS-V, Vette, Solstice/Sky). GM interiors are the worst! I have ALWAYS hated the feel of their dashes, the layout, the feel of the ***** and switches. Can't these fools reverse engineer a Toyota?! I know that they can and do use parts from Japanese companies like Denso and ASMO... where is the screw up? Design?

As much as I may beat the Ford/Mustang drum... and am admittedly a Mustang fan... the current Mustang disappointed me. I liked the concept car MUCH better. The design that came out for production is pretty close, but it lost what I liked about it. It was less retro and more futuristic... more like what someone in 1970 would have thought the car would look like in 20-30 years. The GT500 I like much better. Elements like those stupid driving lights in the front grill should have never happened and the change in the front bumper, hood and headlights. The GT500 is closer to the concept car there... which is why I like it better. Seriously.. driving lights. They should have stuck with freaking fog lights like the GT500 from the beginning on the GT model. Idiots. :rolleyes. The interior... take it or leave it. but I'm honestly not big on "billet" anything.. exterior or especially interior. The GT500, again, does better for me here. The door panels are also better done it seems... the speaker loses that cheap look (hard to describe). The gauge cluster... why oh why the freaking retro font?! Hard to read and looks like ****. GT500... yet again... does better here with regular easy to read fonts and colors.

As I have often said... Ford does care about the quality/reliability complaints. Building it at the Mazda6 plant should address that. Even then... my well-used 1990 LX 5.0 gave me no problems (except the heater core... which seems to have been an issue with the car '87-'93 model). My father has it as a project car and still runs just fine. Something like 200,000mi on it. I've driven it NC to VT and back (with a stop in NY). I took my wife to work, came back to town for class and picked her up daily for a month or two... about 40mi one-way. My father had an '79, '83 and '87 GT ('79 was the Pace car model... T/C I4). Other than the '79 (turbo issues) he had no problems with any of them. The old 302 V8 (5.0L) was bullet proof... as it should be. Ford had been building it forever... it was only a "blown" 289 that they originally used in the '64 Mustang. Sure the interior quality isn't all that. The hatchback had issues with body flex... a bit of squeek or rattle over hard bumps, but damn it... it's reliable.

Futuristic looking cars... keep reading...

Coming back... about cars "looking" futuristic. Dude... look outside. They already do. The new Honda Civic... Toyota Prius... Lexus GS... MB and BMW have too. They all look futuristic (other brands too... these are just VERY obvious examples). What do you want? This is the futuristic designs that we've been seeing as concept cars the last 10-20 years. Where do we go now? What's "futuristic"? What is or should be the new design paradigm? For US automakers it has be this "retro" trend. Why? Reliving the past, old designs, no new ideas... blah, blah, blah. Not all of them are done well, but some... the 300C, the Mustang and the GT... they carry some styling cues of the past cars, but are actually quite different. The Mustang changed profile...nose down, tail up to the reverse. No exterior chrome. While the design tries to emphasize a long front and short rear deck... the true is this car has a long *** (Ford should have chopped it). It is somewhat of a "chopped top" look... the doors are tall and the greenhouse short. The GT... the original was round and bulbous... the new is sharp and "edge". The original was very spartan interior... Lotus Elise like. The new car is "futuristic" spartan... use of "billet" items but it also provides creature comforts. Why do this... why retro? What would you have them do? Try what they already were failing at... copy the Japanese? They even tried using Japanese cars with few styling changes or just rebadging them... didn't sell. Going from RWD to FWD... OHV to OHC... lots of retooling and design costs. Sure there were plenty of other mistakes also made, but they were chasing the market... that's what the Japanese made and it was selling. They stopped leading and started trying to follow. Now... love it or hate it... they are trying to be themselves. American roads aren't Tokyo or even the average Japanese road. Neither are they like European roads. The same designs are not necessary... not if similar or te same design efficiencies can be made. Hell.. BMW and MB have stuck with the RWD design and are doing great. Even the Japanese are chasing them... 99% of Lexus are RWD and the same for Infiniti (only Acura/Honda is too stupid to figure this market out). So I really doubt that FWD is necessary in anything other than economy, sub compact cars (but even there... the "kei", light, class cars in Japan have RWD and AWD sports cars). Coming to the point... American car companies are trying to be American car companies. Maybe they are a little or a lot off, but you have to give them credit for taking chances in this way. Stop following... stop trying to make Japanese-like cars and instead build something different. American has been big.. spacy... V8 engines... more daring designs (some of the good aspects). American cars were the Corvette, GTO, Mustang, Charger, Impala... etc. American cars weren't the Neon or the Cobalt... not in design, not with such a weany, marketing bred name. In getting back to their "roots"... you gotta start somewhere. Some are reviving old model names, "retro" designs, more RWD, more V8 engines... that's where they are now. Where do they go? Who knows... maybe the cars move to a futuristic look based on the "retro" design... gradual change IS accepted better than sudden large changes...

The Carrera GT is a sexy car. So is the BMW M6 and Audi RS6.

Then that's just copying the Italians. Italian, French, German and even English cars... they are distinct. You know each easily by design. Each country has its own design.... the German "teutonic" look... the Italian "sexy" look.... the French "funky" (IMO) look. So the Americans should copy them? Copy the Japanese? Copy, copy, copy, copy. Why not buy one of those cars if you like the designs so much? Not imported? Why not try to get them imported? Why should American car companies copy anyone? Shouldn't they have their own "trademark"?

therm8

Futuristic is relative. I'm sure 20 or 30 years in the future, all cars will look pretty much the same once governments start regulating aerodynamics for fuel economy purposes.

TODreamer

where did that come from???

Japan8

The GT40 was to prove Ford could out do Ferrari. The Ford GT was to prove Ford could still run with or maybe even out do Ferrari. Sounds reasonable to me... not just premise, but the ties between the names.... thus design cues.

The Viper was hardly all original. Viper... Cobra... types of snakes. Not convertible, but open top 2 seater sports car with massive power big NA engine. Oh yeah... the Viper was ALL original.

Hey...I regularly complain about GM, Ford and especially Chrysler products. Never said they've been doing it all right... or that just bringing up reliablity and quailty is the answer to their woes. GM's designs have royally sucked for quite sometime. The last time a Camaro or Firebird/TransAm appealed to me was around the '70 model. Since then... all look like ***, ride like ***, even seating position is ***. Sedans? Until the Caddie remake... EVERYTHING was either ugly or Zzzz. See my last post about GM interiors... I still don't know what they were thinking. Ford... screwed up the subcompact thing for a long time... Escort and even the Focus (don't like 'em). The Taurus was ok... the SHO great for its day and then... WTF?! That big bloated ugly POS came out... and the shame to the SHO name. Took them long enough to rework the Mustang... granted a big slump in the sports car market didn't help to convince them of the need. Chrysler... at least got daring in designs, but quality and reliablity are the pits from everyone I know that has owned one (no personal experience because I'd never buy one). What's with the SOOOO cheezy tinny black plastic dashes?! What's with no freaking manual transmissions?! And then there is the business management... that's a whole different can of worms.

No. They hold their value because people BELIEVE the cars are reliable. The Japanese cars were more reliable without question in the 80's and much of the 90's as well. In 2005? You make have issues with the design and interior plastics in American cars, but Consumer Reports to JD Power to Auto Magazines... all the data points to them being fine cars (bought new, maintained and owned for 3-5 years). No, not better than the best of the Japanese brands, but ahead of several and not light years behind the best. Not anymore. Why don't people buy them if they are that much better now? Because people are simple and people are sheep. You had 3 or 4 American cars before in the '80s and '90s and had a few or maybe a lot of problems with them. You're fed up with American cars... magazines, news... the media (and some friends) said that Japanese cars are reliable, so you buy one. And you keep buying them... once bitten twice shy. Even if your "reliable" Honda requires so much regular "scheduled" service that you've pretty much rebuilt the drivetrain by 100,000 mi or so.

Numerous tests? Name them. Link them if you can. I'll already somewhat disqualify Toyota as evidence because it is well known that they are #1... which also means they beat all the other Japanese and European makers as well. NOt much point in bringing the acknowledged long reigning champ into this... even though all their cars are dull, slow, expensive and just generally uninteresting. But hey... they're reliable.

Japan8

Oh no... don't get me wrong. As much as I love sports cars, I know that the average person isn't interested in sports cars or isn't making their purchase based upon those related criteria. However, that doesn't mean people aren't interested in an exciting car... something with a fresh or "interesting" design. more importantly people DO evaluated some basic level of the driving characteristics... particularly acceleration (gotta have a car with "pickup"... even my mother and grandmother say that).

There are also a large segment of people who are price sensitive. They'd love that new Camry which Toyota priced $2,000-$3,00 more than the previous model... but it's now gotten too expensive. The Mazda or even the Chrysler competitor does fit in budget however. For the same reason that Lexus, Infiniti and Acura were born... just because the Toyota is built well doesn't mean Toyota can command almost whatever price they choose. No one is going to pay $35k for Celica... especially if it can't even perform better than a Cobalt SS or 350Z.

For a long time GM thought they had the right formula too. At one point in time they did... and so they were undisputed number one. Now... Just because Toyota is number one now using their formula of boring looking, underperforming, overpriced cars is selling now doesn't mean it is the formula that will work forever. If it was there was no need for Scion... maybe even the Lexus nameplate (meaning sell them as Toyotas). No... Toyota recognizes at the moment that to say on top they have to keep moving. The question is how long will their formula last and will they change in time before the formula does.

BlueEyes

C'mon guys, The man knows greatness when he sees it!

mike1324a

I very much agree with what japan8 is saying. I love the retro thing. those designs are very american. muscle car are the trademark sports cars of america. Why would we change and copy any other country. All countires have good and bad cars but every car is different. Hell, if the retro thing works run with it! American cars are not european or japanese so why would we strive to be. I do agree that the quality needs to be improved. I honestly love the mustang on the outside. the interior is a cool design but too much plastic. But i say stick to the way american cars are moving, back to there roots. bring back nameplate favorites. So long as it captures that cars soul. Hell, most of those cars sucked but people remember the soul and how they thaught it was. so capture the soul and have it live up to how people remember it, throw some styling cues in and youve got a winner if done right! I would love to have a muscle car just to say ive had one. Its just an american thing. Its just a symbol of a bad ***, seat of the pants, rebellious american. As much as any american denies it its in all of us!

mike1324a

Its kinda like gone in 60 seconds. Each car has a name and is different and then theres eleanor. It has soul. I wish all american cars had atleast half as much soul as eleanor. Kinda random but i just thaught of it.

rx8wannahave

Yeah, but we are complaining about GM and Ford…not those other companies. I agree mostly with you Japan8….

The Vette looks like what a future Vette should probably look like.

The Mustang, looks like what the guy who originally designed the Mustang thought it would like like today, actually maybe a little too similar for his taste.

Then you have all the other products from these companies…decent, no doubt…but as exciting as watching golf.

You took the words out of my mouth, the new Civic looks like a future car…I think it’s the most future looking car there is on the road today.

Oh LORD….lol

Remember guys, I’m not asking GM or FORD to be like the other car companies…I’m just asking them to once again act like the automotive leaders instead of the followers. Where I would like them to be like the others is in interior design and quality. With the looks, I have always liked that our cars look “mean” or tough. My design thoughts tend to look for (regarding sports cars) a sports car that looks like it is about to kick your butt (like the Viper, the Vette, and in the old days Camaro and Cuda). It should have an aggressive-sexy look but the look should tell all other cars that this is a “SPORTS CAR”.

Me too! Who doesn’t want a American V8 growling back at those pesky little I-4's...lol.

Note: While I do respect what some of those little suckers can do, when an I-4 gets the same fuel economy as a V8 why don’t you just save the complexity of Turbo/SC and welcome the torque and smoothness of a sweet V8??? Weight…balance, sure…but that’s about it.

Just think of an EVO 8...with an acutal V8 under the hood, keeping in mind that it would have to be desined for a V8. I know sticking a V8 where a I4 use to be can have adverse effects on handling.

rx8wannahave

Again, just in case...I'm not a Mustang hater, nor any other car for that matter. Well, I have to admit I don't like FWD cars too much.

The performance the Mustang gives for the price is pretty dang good. Also, the overall quality is pretty dang good too. The outside design is nice...but not lovely, if I would have gotten a new Mustang I would have modified the looks soon after.

Here is a general complaint against the Mustang and GTO...lose some weight you fat hogs, lol. A sports car...just in my opinion, should not go over 3300 pounds. I mean...we have sadan's that weigh less for the love of GOD.

Final thing, has anyone seen the new Mustang's dyno...with only 300 HP and comming in at 3,500 pounds I still can't see how it can hit 13.5's in the 1/4 Mile.

Sephiroth

I was just watching that movie last night.

Sometimes i wonder what owning a nice sounding muscle car is really like. I just love the sound of the V8 in the GT500 in that movie.

mike1324a

hahaha. See what i mean! that car has a real american soul! Its bad *** and every one knows it because like it sounds like it too!

mike1324a

Its a different style of sports car though. Infact we dont even call it a sports car, its a muscle car! Its ment to be big and powerful. The idea is brute force, no one cares if its light on its feet. It is better on its feet than they used to be but thats not the point of a MUSCLE car. Its called a muscle car for a reason.

TALAN7

I had a 2000 Regal GS for a 39 month lease. Didn't have 1, I repeat, 1 problem with it the entire time. The car was quick, had lots of torque, but couldn't handle worth a dime and it did look cheap inside. Even though it looked cheap inside it was a very good car and held up extremely well. I've had my 8 for just over 2 years and so far I've had 2 water pumps, an AC condenser, and a few other issues, including rattles. Don't knock American cars. I think we're so used to bashing them that we only look for the negative. The Mazda is the 1st Japanese car I've ever owned and so far, I'm not that impressed. I agree, Toyotas, Hondas, and of course the premium Japanese brands have better quality than American cars, marks like Mitsubishi (my fiancee owns a 99 Galant and it's always in the shop with less than 100,000 miles on it), Nissan, and even Mazda (heard many war stories regarding Mazdas reliability even if the new ones are good) are I think about the same as a good American car. The future is actually more rosy for American cars cause they can really only go up in perception. Toyota is already there. What is Toyota going to do, their quality is already top notch, do they use even better materials, not if they want to keep prices down. GM is having it rough right now but give them time, they will be back on top.

TODreamer

Didn't your Pastor ever tell you never to use the Lord's name in vain!!!

YOu must repent

lol

rx8wannahave

I thought the reason was because it had “muscle” under the hood…a bunch of HP and Torque to play with, not because it’s morbidly obese.

So...you can't have a muscle car without high weight? So...the Cobra was not a Muscle car? The Vette?

Well, remember…I could have meant it like “Oh LORD, help blue…” and I just cut it short.

LOL

TODreamer

So is that what you all talk about in church??? How to be sneaky and bend rules?

LOL

j/k

rx8wannahave

No...just how to stop the buzzards from circling above...lol

Sephiroth

Buick has been and still is one of the most reliable domestic brands. In fact it may be the ONLY domestic brand capable of taking on honda and toyota in reliability. This has been found by various companies that do reliability statistics.