import muscle vs domestic muscle (gimmie some real facts)
06-23-2006 | 12:18 PM
#51
i pwn therefore i am
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From: Delaware, USA
Originally Posted by p-trix
ok ok...american v8s are strong but if toyota made a v8 (i dont know if they have one) for a sports car im pretty sure it would be better than an american v8 and it would last much longer also.
06-23-2006 | 12:26 PM
#52
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plus in todays market imported cars dominate because of reliability and power.. you can race em and drive them home..classic american cars are great but i think import car should get respect with what there capable of and what they can do..and its not just asian cars..european cars are better cars too.. The american car market has lost its dominance in the auto market.. alot are loosing money becaise of bad sales and its due to plenty of car magizines doing bad reviews of american cars..Cobra or m3.. you can keep the cobra
06-23-2006 | 01:23 PM
#53
Bummed, but bring on OU!
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From: Charleston, SC
Originally Posted by puch96
Wow... Thanks for the explanation....
I like both type of cars.... they are just different and intended for different purposes. muscle cars vs. japanese little 2.0L engines tuned for racing, etc....
The only problem I see is that the US is still thinking of "bigger is better" and "big muscle cars" "big american, tough cars"........
The fact of the matter is that gas prices are not going to drop...... As a matter of fact, they will continue to rise. I am already starting to see the american consumers shift in their buying habits. I live in Michigan, the State of the "Big 3" and they are suffering...... while the japanese are going up and up and up.
I like both type of cars.... they are just different and intended for different purposes. muscle cars vs. japanese little 2.0L engines tuned for racing, etc....
The only problem I see is that the US is still thinking of "bigger is better" and "big muscle cars" "big american, tough cars"........
The fact of the matter is that gas prices are not going to drop...... As a matter of fact, they will continue to rise. I am already starting to see the american consumers shift in their buying habits. I live in Michigan, the State of the "Big 3" and they are suffering...... while the japanese are going up and up and up.
Seen any Japanese cars lately? They're getting bigger and heavier as well. Not just sports cars, but across the board. Right now there's a brand new Civic sedan sitting next to a last gen Accord sedan in my parking lot. Guess which one's bigger?
Trick question, they're the same size.
The American market is driving all car makers to bigger and heavier. Don't blame the builders, blame the jackasses who think cars are only for getting to work and back
06-23-2006 | 01:25 PM
#54
Bummed, but bring on OU!
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From: Charleston, SC
Originally Posted by p-trix
ok ok...american v8s are strong but if toyota made a v8 (i dont know if they have one) for a sports car im pretty sure it would be better than an american v8 and it would last much longer also. My first car was a civic (that i still own) it was turbo and had an engine swap.. I dont know any tuner that has spent 20k to get fast than a mustang.. I spent around 5k to 6k..plus its a mis match.. again my supra would eat up a mustang.. my s2k will **** on most american cars and thats with 4 cyl and no turbo..
Where's Ike?
Edit: (the following assumes stock vs stock and is only comparing linear acceleration capability)
And for the S2000 to find an American sports/muscle car to "**** on" you have to go back to the late 80's/very early 90's. LT1 Fbodies = driver's race. LT1 Vettes = advantage Vette. LS1 Fbodies/Vettes = not even close. Pushrod Stang's = slight advantage to S2000. Modular Stang's = driver's race usually, perhaps slight advantage S2000 depending on model year. Terminator Stang's and Z06's = lol. GTO = large advantage to LS2, smaller advantage to LS1. New Stang's = advantage Stang. SRT-4's/Cobalt SS = advantage S2000.
Unless you like picking on the Solstice/Sky or you're the jackass from Vegas over at S2ki.
The S2000 is a fantastic machine, but you're still looking at high 13's with a great driver, low 14's with an average one. I wouldn't call that "shitting on" caliber at all.
*advantage = will win most of the time.
Last edited by therm8; 06-23-2006 at 01:45 PM.
06-23-2006 | 03:55 PM
#55
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From: Central Florida
Exactly Therm8.
Toyota does make a V8. What do you think is in the Lexus LS sedan and Tundra full-size pickup?
And no it won't kill an American V8.
LS1 = 350hp
LS2= 400hp
LS7 = 505hp
3v 4.6 MOD = 300hp
S/C 4v 5.4 MOD = 500hp / 550hp (iron block is 500hp in the GT500 and aluminum block is 550hp in the Ford GT)
6.1L Hemi = 425hp
Now just imagine picking up a $5,000 - $6,000 S/C kit from Saleen or Kenne Bell. On the 3v 4.6 MOD you are talking about 400hp to 500hp+ on a stock motor. Just imagine if you go further with forged internals, cams, heads, more boost...
There is a 1,000hp twin turbo Mach1 Mustang daily driver in a copy of a Mustang magazine...
As nice as a S2000 is... it'll pretty much be owned in any race* with a 2006 American V8 car... even a Chrysler 300C or Charger SRT-8 will pull low 13's in the 1/4mi... (*any drag race)
Toyota does make a V8. What do you think is in the Lexus LS sedan and Tundra full-size pickup?
And no it won't kill an American V8.
LS1 = 350hp
LS2= 400hp
LS7 = 505hp
3v 4.6 MOD = 300hp
S/C 4v 5.4 MOD = 500hp / 550hp (iron block is 500hp in the GT500 and aluminum block is 550hp in the Ford GT)
6.1L Hemi = 425hp
Now just imagine picking up a $5,000 - $6,000 S/C kit from Saleen or Kenne Bell. On the 3v 4.6 MOD you are talking about 400hp to 500hp+ on a stock motor. Just imagine if you go further with forged internals, cams, heads, more boost...
There is a 1,000hp twin turbo Mach1 Mustang daily driver in a copy of a Mustang magazine...
As nice as a S2000 is... it'll pretty much be owned in any race* with a 2006 American V8 car... even a Chrysler 300C or Charger SRT-8 will pull low 13's in the 1/4mi... (*any drag race)
06-23-2006 | 05:40 PM
#56
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From: Milwaukee
Originally Posted by therm8
Where's Ike?
Edit: (the following assumes stock vs stock and is only comparing linear acceleration capability)
And for the S2000 to find an American sports/muscle car to "**** on" you have to go back to the late 80's/very early 90's. LT1 Fbodies = driver's race. LT1 Vettes = advantage Vette. LS1 Fbodies/Vettes = not even close. Pushrod Stang's = slight advantage to S2000. Modular Stang's = driver's race usually, perhaps slight advantage S2000 depending on model year. Terminator Stang's and Z06's = lol. GTO = large advantage to LS2, smaller advantage to LS1. New Stang's = advantage Stang. SRT-4's/Cobalt SS = advantage S2000.
Unless you like picking on the Solstice/Sky or you're the jackass from Vegas over at S2ki.
The S2000 is a fantastic machine, but you're still looking at high 13's with a great driver, low 14's with an average one. I wouldn't call that "shitting on" caliber at all.
*advantage = will win most of the time.
Edit: (the following assumes stock vs stock and is only comparing linear acceleration capability)
And for the S2000 to find an American sports/muscle car to "**** on" you have to go back to the late 80's/very early 90's. LT1 Fbodies = driver's race. LT1 Vettes = advantage Vette. LS1 Fbodies/Vettes = not even close. Pushrod Stang's = slight advantage to S2000. Modular Stang's = driver's race usually, perhaps slight advantage S2000 depending on model year. Terminator Stang's and Z06's = lol. GTO = large advantage to LS2, smaller advantage to LS1. New Stang's = advantage Stang. SRT-4's/Cobalt SS = advantage S2000.
Unless you like picking on the Solstice/Sky or you're the jackass from Vegas over at S2ki.
The S2000 is a fantastic machine, but you're still looking at high 13's with a great driver, low 14's with an average one. I wouldn't call that "shitting on" caliber at all.
*advantage = will win most of the time.
06-25-2006 | 08:35 PM
#57
the giant tastetickles
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Japs are more fond of crunching high hp from smaller displacement engines while its easier to spot a V8 on American soils. Besides the GTR, EVO, STI I wouldn't consider the Jap having any muscle cars in the last decade.
06-25-2006 | 11:37 PM
#58
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From: Central Florida
^^ the Japanese don't prefer small low displacement cars. They have those because few people can afford anything else. There is a yearly tax based upon your engine displacement and weight/size of the car. These are also used again for a tax you pay when you have your bi-annual vehicle inspection done. The yearly tax for below 2000cc engine sub-compact (Protege5, old HOnda Accords) is 39,500 yen (roughly $390). Don't forget the cost of gas.... 145 yen ($1.45)... a liter (about 1 quart). Plus lots of traffic, tiny backroads... small cars with small displacement engines makes a lot of sense.
This is part of the original charm of the rotary engine... rated as 1.3L getting a lower tax, but similar performance as a 3.5L V6.
This is part of the original charm of the rotary engine... rated as 1.3L getting a lower tax, but similar performance as a 3.5L V6.
06-25-2006 | 11:40 PM
#59
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From: Milwaukee
Originally Posted by Japan8
^^ the Japanese don't prefer small low displacement cars. They have those because few people can afford anything else. There is a yearly tax based upon your engine displacement and weight/size of the car. These are also used again for a tax you pay when you have your bi-annual vehicle inspection done. The yearly tax for below 2000cc engine sub-compact (Protege5, old HOnda Accords) is 39,500 yen (roughly $390). Don't forget the cost of gas.... 145 yen ($1.45)... a liter (about 1 quart). Plus lots of traffic, tiny backroads... small cars with small displacement engines makes a lot of sense.
This is part of the original charm of the rotary engine... rated as 1.3L getting a lower tax, but similar performance as a 3.5L V6.
This is part of the original charm of the rotary engine... rated as 1.3L getting a lower tax, but similar performance as a 3.5L V6.
06-25-2006 | 11:44 PM
#60
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From: Central Florida
Since I don't have a rotary myself... I can't say for 100% sure, however, all the Mazda brouchures and whatnot still call it 1.3L. Knowing the Japanese government and businesses... it's probably still rated 1.3L. No reason for the government to change it and potentially hurt Mazda. Now if it was GM or Renault... they probably would have changed it.
06-26-2006 | 11:01 PM
#61
the giant tastetickles
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Originally Posted by Japan8
^^ the Japanese don't prefer small low displacement cars. They have those because few people can afford anything else. There is a yearly tax based upon your engine displacement and weight/size of the car. These are also used again for a tax you pay when you have your bi-annual vehicle inspection done. The yearly tax for below 2000cc engine sub-compact (Protege5, old HOnda Accords) is 39,500 yen (roughly $390). Don't forget the cost of gas.... 145 yen ($1.45)... a liter (about 1 quart). Plus lots of traffic, tiny backroads... small cars with small displacement engines makes a lot of sense.
This is part of the original charm of the rotary engine... rated as 1.3L getting a lower tax, but similar performance as a 3.5L V6.
This is part of the original charm of the rotary engine... rated as 1.3L getting a lower tax, but similar performance as a 3.5L V6.
06-27-2006 | 01:22 AM
#62
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From: Central Florida
Honestly... I have been wondering about that too. The unofficial limit of 280hp (at least published numbers) seems to be gone now... and it's every man for himself. All the magazines talk about 400hp V8 IS to compete with the M3, 330hp Z... The Lexus Japan site posts 315ps for the GS...
Another thing is that in Japan... the thinking tends to be the bigger the better. I suppose with most households having 1 car or 1 real car and 1 micro car... you gotta get something that can haul the family and your junk...
Another thing is that in Japan... the thinking tends to be the bigger the better. I suppose with most households having 1 car or 1 real car and 1 micro car... you gotta get something that can haul the family and your junk...
06-27-2006 | 02:01 AM
#63
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From: Fort Wayne, IN
Originally Posted by StewC625
The result is feel - I think a Mustang GT is a supremely fun car to drive, but it's also a big, blunt instrument - a big honking fairly low-tech V8 (although yes, this one is NOT pushrod), a not-very stiff structure, but big, heavy, stiff suspension bits, etc.
Contrast that to a similarly fast import car like an M3, and you've got a refined feel, a compliant suspension, and a tremendously high-tech, high-revving engine.
Contrast that to a similarly fast import car like an M3, and you've got a refined feel, a compliant suspension, and a tremendously high-tech, high-revving engine.
06-27-2006 | 12:25 PM
#64
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Originally Posted by Doomcue
Read the entire thread. Ike is doing an excellent job of pointing it out....
In general, ricer math equates to, "My car would be faster IF __________."
Examples:
My car would be faster if I swapped out a bigger motor.
My car would be faster if I installed twin turbos.
My car would be faster if I put a big wing on it.
My car would be faster if I take out the can of fix-a-flat.
My car would be faster if I poked holes in the other guy's tires.
Another common ricer math technique involves changing one half of the equation, but not the other. For instance, ricers love to say they could buy a cheap beater Honda, spend $20k on mods, and outrun a stock C6 'Vette. Their line of "thinking" is that doing so is somehow better than just buying a Corvette because it's cheaper. I say, so what? It's still a Honda, plus you had to spend $20k to make it run worth a ****. Why waste the time and effort to do so when there's already a perfectly good machine already built to do what the Honda wasn't built to do? Would the Honda still outrun the 'Vette if it had $20k in mods, too? In the end, which car is worth more, the stock Corvette or the riced-out Honda? Which one will you have to worry about breaking, the Corvette or the Honda?
Another common ricer math technique is to call American muscle "crude" due to lower hp/liter numbers than Japanese cars, even though American muscle cars still make more overall horsepower. That particular statistic is useful when comparing relative efficiencies of an engine when discussing power output, but has absolutely nothing to do with actual power output. In the end, the only thing that matters, given equal weights, is the power output. If hp/liter were really all that important, then we'd all be running StewC625's "weed wacker" engines in our cars.
As Ike said, usually, whether stock-to-stock or mod-to-mod, American muscle beats Japanese "muscle." Ricer math defeats that equation only when the scales are tilted by the ricer to put modded Japanese "muscle" vs. stock American muscle.
-djb <-- hates muscle cars, but gives credit where credit is due
In general, ricer math equates to, "My car would be faster IF __________."
Examples:
My car would be faster if I swapped out a bigger motor.
My car would be faster if I installed twin turbos.
My car would be faster if I put a big wing on it.
My car would be faster if I take out the can of fix-a-flat.
My car would be faster if I poked holes in the other guy's tires.
Another common ricer math technique involves changing one half of the equation, but not the other. For instance, ricers love to say they could buy a cheap beater Honda, spend $20k on mods, and outrun a stock C6 'Vette. Their line of "thinking" is that doing so is somehow better than just buying a Corvette because it's cheaper. I say, so what? It's still a Honda, plus you had to spend $20k to make it run worth a ****. Why waste the time and effort to do so when there's already a perfectly good machine already built to do what the Honda wasn't built to do? Would the Honda still outrun the 'Vette if it had $20k in mods, too? In the end, which car is worth more, the stock Corvette or the riced-out Honda? Which one will you have to worry about breaking, the Corvette or the Honda?
Another common ricer math technique is to call American muscle "crude" due to lower hp/liter numbers than Japanese cars, even though American muscle cars still make more overall horsepower. That particular statistic is useful when comparing relative efficiencies of an engine when discussing power output, but has absolutely nothing to do with actual power output. In the end, the only thing that matters, given equal weights, is the power output. If hp/liter were really all that important, then we'd all be running StewC625's "weed wacker" engines in our cars.
As Ike said, usually, whether stock-to-stock or mod-to-mod, American muscle beats Japanese "muscle." Ricer math defeats that equation only when the scales are tilted by the ricer to put modded Japanese "muscle" vs. stock American muscle.
-djb <-- hates muscle cars, but gives credit where credit is due
Last edited by JB_Rotary; 06-27-2006 at 12:31 PM.
06-27-2006 | 01:09 PM
#65
Its all about Style...
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not sure if anyone brought this up but half the automakers now own each other in some shape or form. I could list some examples but I know I'd mess them up and get flamed haha. But I do know that Toyota owns part of Lotus, hence why the Elise has their Celica engine. The Import vs Domestic battle to me is just old school vs new school. The stuborn ones on both side just overall see things differently. But 'eh I had to chime in.
06-27-2006 | 01:26 PM
#66
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Originally Posted by Clavius
not sure if anyone brought this up but half the automakers now own each other in some shape or form. I could list some examples but I know I'd mess them up and get flamed haha. But I do know that Toyota owns part of Lotus, hence why the Elise has their Celica engine. The Import vs Domestic battle to me is just old school vs new school. The stuborn ones on both side just overall see things differently. But 'eh I had to chime in.
06-27-2006 | 03:05 PM
#67
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From: Georgetown
Originally Posted by p-trix
I am a proud owner of some asian muscle including my rx8.. my neighbor down the street has a classic american muscle whick includes a 05 cobra.. after some carne asada and a couple of beers we had a discussion about import vs domestics.. I am a fan of asian muscle because of reliability and power..what american car has 100+ ponies per liter like a s2k or an rx8.. And why do they compare a v8 to a honda civic..put it up against a subaru.. Im might be biased towards imports but if anyone can gimmie a reason why american cars are better let me know..
Here's my take...American cars are only starting to show respectability IMO, the Z06 and the Hemi sedans are most notable...though the latter is thanks to the Daimler side of the equation.
06-27-2006 | 03:08 PM
#68
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GM DOESNT OWN LOTUS ANYMORE...GM was loosing so much money because there cars suck soo bad and imports being much more solid and reliable. they had to sell many of there affiliate companies to reconcile for capitol losses. Toyota bought 2.9 mil shares. GM did keep Holden and Vauxhall who also desinged the lotus elan and elise.Hence the american solstice and sky. toyota helped bring lotus back into the mainstream.
06-27-2006 | 03:59 PM
#69
Its all about Style...
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From: South of Boston, MA
Originally Posted by Ike
Toyota doesn't own part of Lotus, GM owns Lotus.
What P-Trix said Ike hehe.
They may not offical own it but they own part of the company. When reading up on the Elise after first hearing about it Lotus was looking around for a new engine and instead of developing their own new one looked around and sniffed in Toyota's engine garage if you will, they found the Celica Engine (forget the offical name if you will) and it suited their needs perfectly. Why I find it somewhat amusing that the car is priced so high yet it has a toyota engine in it. Again most of the Automakers both foreign and domestic all own each other in some shape or form. Though some are doing better than others. I just forget if Mazda is soley owned or was bought out? Been awhile since I've kept on the industry inside of things. blah!
06-27-2006 | 04:40 PM
#71
Its all about Style...
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From: South of Boston, MA
Originally Posted by therm8
Latest info I could find was GM sold Lotus to Bugatti in '93. Proton bought a controlling share in '96. So unless Toyota bought it from them 
.
.
06-27-2006 | 04:46 PM
#72
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Another point people tend to overlook when they say "Why not just by a [whatever] and go fast instead of buying a [my car] and pouring so much money into it just to get it up to the performance level of a [whatever]"?
Because... I don't WANT to go fast in a [whatever], I WANT to go fast in [my car].
Because... I don't WANT to go fast in a [whatever], I WANT to go fast in [my car].
06-27-2006 | 05:21 PM
#73
Insanely Yellow
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From: Buffalo Grove IL
Originally Posted by DrDiaboloco
Whoa... You're claiming the M3 has a "compliant suspension"? You'd better be referring to the 1st and 2nd gen M3's. The 3rd gen M3 would rattle your teeth out, unless you happen to live in a place with mirror-smooth roads.
06-27-2006 | 07:52 PM
#75
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From: Miami, FL
Originally Posted by BlueEyes
Yeah, the E46 M3 has a pretty compliant ride. Not too many doctors and lawyers would want them if they lost fillings everytime they jumped in to go to the office.