rotarygod

That's actually what I was thinking would happen before Sevenstock. I just keep hoping that's wrong and try to justify reasons to keep the rotary.

AggieLuke

Well, if the turbo inline4 is the future, I hope they don't have it sorted until after Houston. I'd love to hear that rotary scream one more time...

Though really, I can understand the move to the piston engine. Most of their vehicles use it, and I haven't even seen an 8 in a commercial that wasn't on Speed...

rotarygod

Moving to the 4 cylinder only makes sense from a PR standpoint. There is nothing that engine can do in the race car under the rules that a Renesis couldn't do better.

AggieLuke

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of the rotary and the biggest (most pathetic?) fan of the RX-8 that doesn't own one there is. But to play devil's (piston's) advocate here, what's the point of any factory getting involved in racing if not for the PR benefit?

The rotary is a niche engine that appeals to a niche market while the piston could be aimed at any potential customer. Though as I'm typing this I've come to the conclusion that maybe Mazda should focus the piston effort towards Grand-Am with their more NASCRAPesque fanbase and leave the rotary for the more discerning ALMS crowd. :D

Note: I'm just playing off the stereotypes with both series, but if I could only have the rotary in one, I would prefer the genius of SpeedSource in ALMS.

Renesis_8

anyways, here is one that hasnt been touched on.

wat will they do with the current courage c60/c65 3-rotor?
________
Zoloft Lawsuit

Senna

Damn...if true this completely sucks. But I'd prefer to have them withdraw the 20B if they can't be competitive.

rotary crazy

At least we will see speedsource for the entire season, and we know speedsource kicks ***

bern

not only from a PR and marketing standpoint, but also from a engineering and development budget standpoint. There are hundreds of piston parts and race combos developed, that are off-the-shelve basically, for a sports racings I-4 piston set-up that will not need a large amount of money to make them work. Mazda can now tap into some of the best I-4 race technology resources in the world for assistance, without having to re-invent the wheel (read: engineer or develop custom one-off RE race technology to suit only ALMS rules, on it's own).

This being said, sure it makes perfect sense, but the Rotary has never been about just making sense... it's always been about a challenge and a struggle, a spirit of achievement and success, no matter the odds, and I think this is where Mazda has lost it's way here!

-Bern

hogcar

Heat management. Side seals.

rotarygod

I disagree. Their overheating issues were the result of water pump cavitation. They now have that fixed.

Side seals aren't an issue.

hogcar

The question was why a turbo Renesis would not work/be a good idea. I answered the question correctly.
NA racing Renesis engines have more side seal trouble(check out the number of blown engines at the VIR race in October, I know of three), putting on a turbo would only compound the issue. Why do you think Mazda is not using the Renesis in any high HP applications in racing?? IE Grand Am GT and ALMS use the older version. I love the Renesis don't get me wrong it is a wonderful engine!

rotary crazy

what happeng at VIR was a fluque, the renesis has proben to be a very reliable engine in racing, you just have to check how many renesis blow in a season of gran am and the star formula cars, not many!

FI is another story, at least it has not beeng tested

hogcar

Forced induction is what the original question was about!

rotary crazy

you are right, but you mention VIR as an example, I just made the observation that what happeng at VIR was an isolated incident and not the norm, no one has develop and race a FI renesis so it is a little dificult to argue in favor of it, as the engine is today im sure it would not really be very good for racing as an FI engine but as any engine with development it may work, PP port will allways be better for racing so I dont think anyone would develop it.

Senna

You mean the old Cosmo based 20b??

I think the GT and P2 car uses the R 20B.

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newssept06.html

hogcar

Yes the good old 20b race engine. The basic engine has been around for a good while. It does have all thwe latest seals, coatings, electronics etc. etc.

brillo

I bet this decision like most things was a conbination of issues. First, given the current ALMS rule structure, can Mazda realistically win with the rotary engine, given the restrictions placed on it. Second, since its not a true factory backed team, does the the team it self have the skill to race a rotary engine from a engineering standpoint? Third, an don't discount this, from a marketing standpoint, is it better press for Mazda to compete with the new DISI turbo 4banger, which is finding its way into more and more vehicles?

Of course I agree with Bern, to me, Mazda racing = rotary. I hope Mazda is looking at a next gen rotary engine for cars and racing. LMP2 is going to be crazy competitive next year, so I hope Mazda can bring it strong no matter what engine they field.

Senna

Yeah, I think the rest of the P2 field has forced the issue for Mazda. Field mediocrity and suffer great embarrassment with the half-assed commitment or get serious about it. Personally my feeling is if you're going to do it you may as well do it right or don't do it at all.

I honestly wouldn't mind running middle of the pack with the 20B because I think a lot comes out of it in terms of R&D but being so far out of the running (like most of the 2006 season) is pointless.

Unfortunately, if Bern's predictions hold true we'll have more mediocrity but with the DISI in 2007.

Tirminyl

Depressing news, if true. Either way, I want Mazda to really step up!!! Doesn't matter what their engine choice is! They need to bring their A-game.

rotarygod

While it may be good PR to run the 4 cylinder, it would be equally good to run a true Renesis. A 4 cylinder race engine would have about as much in common with the street 4 cylinder as the 3 rotor has with a production Renesis. It would have to in order to be competitive. The 2.0L DISI engine just can't do it without a total redesign. The difference is that the stock 2 rotor side port Renesis could be boosted to the power levels they need and probably do fairly well. I still feel that Mazda needs to stay with their roots and what has always worked for them. 4 cylinder engines haven't worked for them. They have been uncompetitive with a rotary in LeMans before. They did what it took to get competitive.

Look at the current car. The rules still allow the variable length intake manifolds on rotaries. They aren't using it. Why would you race a car that is overweight as well as not using all of the available tuning advantages that you are allowed? They aren't losing because they are running a rotary. They are losing because the car needs a serious diet and the engine still isn't putting out as much average power as it could be. Only after they get these 2 issues worked out and see how fast or slow the car is should they consider different options. With a street car it's a bad idea to mod something before you've figured out what the source of another problem is. I don't see how this is any different in racing. Why change something so big as an engine platform when you haven't even worked out the issues with the rest of the car yet? If this is the logic then I see absolutely no way that they will be competitive with a 4 cylinder either and feel that they'll still get their butts handed to them. The difference this next season though will be that instead of being in last place and getting 4th in class, they'll be 7th or 8th and in the runnings for nothing.

Come on guys. Figure it out and do it properly..

rotary crazy

well said!

Senna

RG-good points. I'm skeptical but I would imagine that they have/are putting thought to the weight and intake manifold length issues. Mazda probably has veto power though....i.e. which power plant will give us the biggest $ return. With the DISI/4 in just about everything else they sell on the street there's more fodder for propaganda.

What we need is somone with proximity to where the testing is likely happening!! Assuming they even have a car/engine on a track. Along with "spy shots" we'd need "spy audio" to really know what they're running.

Ah, that's right...the spy photographers are tracking down the next lame Saturn to be released.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

seeing that the DISI 2.3L will be making about 320hp easily just with some tuning in otherwise stock trim pretty soon, I'd say reaching the needed 500hp will be pretty easy with the engine...

In any event I hope to hell they have already decided on an option and are testing the hell out of it on engine dyno's and the lack of an announcement doesn't mean they are still sitting around the table with their thumbs up their butts deciding what to do and falling even further behind the competition (if thats actually possible)...

rotarygod

The LMP2 rules don't allow anything over 2L with forced induction. If they were to stay n/a they could go up to 3.4L.

If Scott can get a stock Renesis up to 400 fwhp with nothing more than a turbo and less than 14 psi of boost on pump gas, imagine what you could do at the 20 psi cap and race gas.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

and theres a 1,000 hp Mazda6 drag car with a turbo 2.3L in the import drag scene (or use to be... not sure if they still run it)... so yipee