brillo

That sucks, it really makes me mad that BK couldn't figure out how to manage a rotary engine program.

That said, I'm not about to throw Mazda under the bus for this. We don't know what type of contracts they had with BK, and since they aren't running a true factory backed team, they will be limited in what they can do.

People shouldn't view this as a zero sum game however. Whats good for Mazda is good for us, rotary powered or not. Selling the mainstream bed and butter products is what funds the miata/RX programs, so I suggest you cheer for the car anyways as they will find a way to make the DISI work so they can say from a marketing standpoint, the MS3,MS6 and CX7 are powered by their race engine.

I can only hope Mazda gets enough money to create a factory backed team at some point. Here's to hoping BK can keep a piston engine together for a full season.

rotary crazy

Im not about to throw mazda under a bus, they did that to themself.

this thing doest even have a mazda engine is a re-baged AER engine thats all

AggieLuke

While I'm definitely saddened to see the rotary go, as I doubt I'll make and Grand-Am events, I'm not going to stop cheering for Mazda. Considering their place as one of the smaller automakers in an ever-expanding pond, I'm glad they're there at all.

We all know that if Mazda were able to carry the weight Audi does, the ACO would re-write the rules to give the rotary an advantage, just like the "diesels" that are running today. And as far as those diesels go, I'll be impressed when they're running a fuel that doesn't evaporate from the ground like rubbing alcohol.

Renesis_8

After this, we might never see the Rotary engine again in ALMS, there are no manufacturer pushing for rule changes, and the rules will remain as it is now. Unless some radical changes happen...

I am also very sad to see this, it wasnt like 1992 when they're no longer allowed to run a rotary engine, Mazda gave up this engine in racing themseleves. There were some options left for Mazda as stated in this thread... Turbocharged Renesis, Supercharged 3-rotor and a NA 4-rotor. They tried none, and only built a new water pump in 2 seasons... B-K really isnt the best in managing a rotary program, lets hope for another rotary lover team owner out there join the series... (Speedsource?!), is the cost for running a car in ALMS significantly higher than what speedsource is running? (2 GT RX-8s)

This Mazda will be the same as everyone else, only slower without cosmos... oh well, i will no longer watch it.
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rotary crazy

It's Not A Mazda!!!!!!!

Senna

Are the finances such that in ALMS a private team (who wants to go FI rotary) can't do so without corporate backing??? If there are teams out there that believe it can be done at a reasonable cost (whatever that means) then they should go for it....I'd chip in.
Personally, I question the notion that they threw in the towel too easily. However, maybe it's cheaper to rebadge an AER than throw green in to R&D'ing an FI Renesis or SC'd 20b. I'll miss the ear shattering rotary at Laguna this year. But I'll still have an awesome time, and I'll laugh when those diesels sail by silently like a magic carpet.

rotary crazy

mazda is falling into big ford way of thinking, racing use to be a testing ground for new developments, now its a marketing scam, how is mazda going to improve its producs racing an engine from another manucfacturer?
#69 car from speedsource its allready testing a new exhaust system, that is the way, improving testing.
dont get me rwong, I love mazda not only the rotary cars, if they would have use an engine developed from the 2.3 dizi I would be happy, but this is low

every sport comentador is going to say this on the air

rotarygod

I think the biggest issue has been within BK itself. Having known some of those that had been involved with that project, there is a common consensus that one person seems to hold things back and is closed minded when it comes to doing things differently. I'm not naming any names though.

The rotary can be a competitive engine but you've got to be willing to take the advice of those that have done it before rather than make them mad. I've seen people get 425 rwhp out of a non peripheral (intake) port 13B on pump gas at 15 psi of boost. In their class they can run something like 22 or 26 psi (I forgot which) and run a higher octane gas. How the heck could a rotary not be competitive with that? The 4 cylinder's goal is 500hp/400tq. Based on what I've seen street rotaries do, this shouldn't be out of the question. I also know they have restrictor plates which hold back power. Fortunately forced induction is very forgiving. Much more so than naturally aspirated engines. That should really equal things out a bit. The article mentions that they are working with Honeywell/Garrett to build a perfect turbo. You know it's designed around the restrictor flow level. They should have done this with a turbo on a rotary. It could have been done.

I guess when you do things wrong for 2 years it's easy to blame it on your engine. The real question is will they get it right with a piston engine? If there's outside help from AER I would have to think yes but only until something messes up that relationship too.

A few montsh ago we saw Dennis Spencer buy an ALMS team. While he never intended to race them himself those cars did have AER 4 cylinder engines in them. I wonder where those went? Just use the block and main components off of them and change the head design around to accomodate DISI. that's a pretty easy solution. Weren't his new cars also the current Lola's or were those older Lola cars? It's not too far of a stretch of the imagination to see where things for the new car potentially came from. Maybe it's just a conincedence though.

I just hope the future can someday put a rotary back into a competent teams hands so we can see another LeMans race for a rotary. I'm watching Audi and Peugeot now since they just tested their new diesel for the first time. That's my "alternative" engine fix in ALMS from now on. At least until it's more widespread.

As a bit of side info, The ACO has decided to allow the use of variable geometry turbos on gasoline engines too. It has been restricted to only diesels up to this point. It think this only applies to LMP1 though. Diesels are not allowed in LMP2.

rotary crazy

get the guys from ATLANTA begin a new team and you will see a 20b or a 26b in the podium!

with enough funds of course

playdoh43

the team them selves obviously knows more about the situation than outsiders. i'm sure they did their fair amount of research to reach the conclusion that they have. its easy to judge them and criticize them when you are passionate about something. Its easy to say they could have done this, or they could have done that, In the end they know them selves best and they re just trying to do whatever it takes to be competitive.

rotarygod

It's even easier to say things against the team when you personally know people that have been associated with them. The fact of the matter is they didn't give the rotary a fair shot. It took them 2 years just to figure out a water pump cavitation issue. I think that says a lot right there.

rotary crazy

^exsatly^

not to mention they where over weight, the other team that was running AER engines with the same chassis was not much faster, etc,etc,etc.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

Just another story about it:

http://www.americanlemans.com/news/Article.aspx?ID=2774

rotary crazy

its the same AER engine

Renesis_8

Interesting post RG, we can only wonder how the rotary engine would perform if it was in the right hands. If they're allowed to run near 26psi, I have no doubt that it will reach competitive power levels and more. The renesis does have some potential. And while it is possible, a FI 3-rotor makes even more sense, a low boost setting could get enough horsepower out of it, and I am pretty sure it'll be as reliable. FI also gives the rotary much needed torque.

After this move, I am sure B-K wont go back to rotary ever. I am not too sure there are private teams out there that'll field a rotary powered car in a very competitive LMP2 class. Most of the teams are factory backed. We probably wont see any rotors in ALMS without Mazda Japan stepping in. I am also guessing that this tie between AER and Mazda is a MazdaUSA effort. An advertising campaign.

There are the guys from Atlanta, and also speedsource, I dont see speedsource making the jump to ALMS. Its disappointing how long we waited for this press conference to find this out.
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rotarygod

I know they say it's an entirely new engine but let's really fiqure out where most piston engine technology is in a race engine. Is it in the intake manifold? Short straight runners can't be changed around all that much. Is it with the block? Nope. That only contains everything. It just needs to be light and strong enough to do what you need it to. AER has had blocks capable of this for a long time. Is it the pistons? The piston head itself may change but for the most part they already know what roll pins and seals work best. Is it the crankshaft? They probably figured this one out a long time ago too since they've been running 4 cylinder race engines. What about the connecting rods? Nope. Nothing special there from another race engine. It's all in the head design. That's where piston engine technology has really advanced. The piston shape is tied into this but for the most part, this would be the only thing that could really be a ground up new design. It's basically a standard AER 4 cylinder racing engine and intake system but with a newly designed Mazda DISI head. That's it. It doesn't even seem like they are running the new head yet based on the crude description of it. It just sounds like a drop in AER 4 cylinder. What's so new about that? I've got it! It's got a new Mazda badge on it with a new name. Viola! A new engine. I still wonder at the connection with rotorhead Dennis Spencer in Atlanta and his recent purchase of a former race team of Lola cars with AER engines in them. You know there is parts sharing going on even though he personally isn't going to race them. It was probably just his name used to acquire that old team for BK to in essence money launder (conceal the source or origin) the transaction from the public sight. The puzzle pieces strangely fit together a little too well for it to be a complete coincedence. Dennis is racing an RX-8 in GT in Daytona but no ALMS team. Why buy a team if you aren't going to use it? I think we know.

rotarygod

Here are the specs on AER's standard 4 cylinder engine. It sure looks like the same engine.

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/aerturbolmp2I4.html

AER's website:

http://www.aerltd.com/

Renesis_8

As for the engine, here are the pictures in one post.




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Tirminyl

Which is where I think their multiple teams in 2008 comment came from.

Where the hell is Mazda JP?

rotarygod

My sources tell me that the Japanese rotary engineers really want to play with an all side port Renesis engine for racing but the U.S. people don't agree and feel the all peripheral port engine is still the way to go. The Japanese have even wanted to build a true 3 rotor Renesis engine to go racing with. Still no dice here. It's too bad that Mazda Japan isn't getting more involved. I personally feel the Japanese who designed the thing should have been the ones that should have been listened to. A turbo 2 rotor Renesis has the potential to be competitive. With forced induction overlap is not your friend like it is naturally aspirated. In turbocharged form, the Renesis really would have shined. In naturally aspirated form, the all peripheral port engines do better. It's not hard for Mazda to cast different housings or rotors. Give us a 4 port engine with timing similar to the 13B intake ports and 9.0:1 compression rotors and go to town with it.

Here's my list for the ultimate 2 rotor race engine that can be built today from available parts. Unfortunately most of these parts are not Mazda parts which is probably why we'll never see one built and used in a Mazda sponsored car. Then again AER isn't exactly building a Mazda engine either so I don't know what the issue is.

1: Racing Beat aluminum end housings and intermediate housings with a "streetport". Stock Mazda 13B rotor housings. Why not a side exhaust port engine? It's using the best you can get with currently available parts. We can't get an aluminum Renesis right now.

2: My 13B exhaust sleeves. I have a new set that I machined that keeps the exhaust velocity high since the exhaust port area stays constant. They don't do this on the street engines. It's worked for me and others. The factory Mazda peripheral port housing exhaust ports are very similar to how mine do the 13B exhaust. The street engines are totally different. You'd have to see one to understand.

3: Guru Racing 2 piece eccentric shaft. It's over 2 pounds lighter and has a center bearing for less bearing stress, higher rpm survivability, and it allows tighter engine clearances.

4: Guru Racing engine stud kit. No more engine tension bolts. Use studs instead. More even torque distribution from the studs to hold the engine together. Less chance of engine expansion. Eliminates the need for dowel pinning.

5: Guru Racing stationary gears. These have slightly taller teeth that the stock ones and are stronger. They are less likely to break at high rpms.

6: Ianetti 3mm ceramic apex seals. Do I really need an explanation?

7: 3rd gen RX-7 corner seal springs, stock side seals, solid corner seals.

8: Viton oil control rings and teflon encapsulated water o-rings. They're just better.

9: Racing Beat 9.0:1 lightened and balanced rotors. These also use a snap gear to retain the rotor gear in place at high rpms.

10: Dry sump oil system.

11: Light chromolly flywheel with 5.5" twin plate clutch.

12: Stock RX-8 ecu. Just kidding! Motec of course!

13: Inconel tublular exhaust manifold with a turbo of course. Air/air intercooled.

This would be an engine that is built stronger and lighter than the current engine. You wouldn't have a weight penalty over the other competitors and all of your weight would actually be centered in a smaller area farther down in the car. That's good for handling. The intake manifold is a pretty open thing to do. Use a turbo that is specially designed to run at max efficiency at the desired boost level after the required restrictor. This engine would definitely be competitive but what do I know? I'm not on a race team and I don't have a budget that can build it. I just have confidence in the rotary's abilities if done properly.

bern

Guys, reading between all the lines on everything I've written in this string, the direction Mazda was contemplating should've been clear for awhile now, as well as the reasoning for their decision. Here are a few key points in the press release:

There were no Mazda engineers from the US, Japan, or anywhere else, on the Rotary program... The RE BK program was totally marketing driven, and doomed to the fate it suffered, unfortunately. With the piston program the budget strings open wide and have a lot more relevance and justification to Mazda's overall USA business plan.


The SpeedSource Boys know their stuff, but they are committed to a GT Grand-Am program for Mazda. So they are doing their part in the overall Mazda Motorsport scheme. This is not to say that maybe sometime in the future, we won't see them in ALMS, but for now they are fully 100% committed to the GT2 effort.

Mazda continues with the RE in Grand-A for a few reasons... there is more relevance to the engine, with RE running in the actual RX-8 car (or reasonable facsimile of) it is sold with, Mazda's historic success in GT racing, and budget required to field the GT cars. The budget here is less than the ALMS program, and more in-line with the overall marketing relevance/budget/scheme of the RX-8; Mazda's single RE product.

On Dennis, I don't think he had much to do with this specific BK program, but maybe he wanted to be ready just incase ... hey, but Dennis is a hard-core rotary guy. It would be nice to see him and his guy in ALMS in a prototype racer, though.

The situation is what it is now! I wish Mazda all the best in all of their motorsports efforts, because as someone mentioned: if Mazda wins, we all win!

-Bern

bern

If you can believe it, there are even more tricker one-off type RE and turbo race parts out there, that could be used. There was a few discussions with people on submiting a proposal to Mazda, so they could fund a few 2-rotor turbo prototype feasbility study motors for ALMS, but they really got no where.

-Bern

Tirminyl

Hell, I would help fund them if they did, lol.

bern

Guys,
Let Mazda know your feelings on this whole "no more RE engine in ALMS" deal... we have their ear over at our RN.COM post.

http://rotarynews.com/node/view/879

Leave your feedback and opinion... (feel free to copy and paste any of your post from this forum)


-Bern

rotarygod

Which other parts are you talking about?

Were the potential feasibility studies not getting anywhere a result of Mazda not doing anything about it or the other companies potentially involved not doing anything? Just trying to see who dropped the ball here.