rotarygod

Here's a recent tidbit from AER. It doesn't mention Mazda at all but lets not kid ourselves. This will also be something they are looking at for their engine. It probably goes back to the statement about working in conjunction with Garrett/Honeywell engineers on turbo design.

>>AER

Following up with Mike Lancaster he reiterates that substantial gains have and are being found in both the LMP1 and LMP2 engines if simply by further development of the ancillaries and engine management. With the ACO having now allowed gasoline engines to utilize variable geometry turbos for this season, AER is naturally looking into its viability, “In practise the devices available have a thermal limitation of about 800C (no good for gasoline turbo engines that tend to operate at around 1,000C). That said we are looking at the possibilities…”

bern

on the parts & processes, I can't say much... they are not general consumer type stuff.

on the study engines, it was decided by the interested parties not to approach Mazda officially, when it became apparent/evident that they Mazda was not going to be commiting to a RE development program.

-Bern

rotarygod

A day late and a dollar short. Or in this case, 2 years late.

bern

if you're talking about the motor study proposals, these talks where held a while back (year++)... but Mazda was cool and doing ok with a off-the-shelf standard 20B race motor; no true development or advances needed. You see... I didn't say because Mazda was committing to a piston program.. I said because Mazda was not commiting to a full RE development program. As far as they were concerned the 20B was meeting their marketing needs, and meager ALMS race budget.

-Bern

Renesis_8

Its done, I hope they(Mazda) read it.

man, I hate it when this thread takes a sharp turn and discuss on Piston technologies... (well not so much in this case, but it'll be, in the future...)
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bern

or even more relevant would be the fact that one of the head MazdaSpeed engineers in th US, which is involved with the new P2 program, worked for Garrett/Honeywell 15+ years, on everything from CART, WRC, F1... etc. And Mazda has also worked closely with Garrett/Honeywell on other MazdaSpeed piston programs for the USA. and what you said too....

-Bern

Renesis_8

A MazdaUSA PR effort is just not enough to drive a successful racing program at this level. I hope they'll do well this season, but i have a feeling that wont happen. Working out bugs from new engine and chassis could be a task too big for B-K if they took two years put a better water pump on the 3-rotor! It wasnt like rotary knowledge did not exist in the states... so even with access to the much larger knowledge base for piston racing. i am unsure how they'll tackle problems.
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rotarygod

I posted at rotarynews too. I did it in my usual long winded **** everyone off style!

I told you guys that a hydrogen rotary wasn't going to happen in ALMS!!!!! It's a crap fuel anyways.

Senna

From what we saw last year it doesn't bode well. It was pretty evident to me that the team (when I saw them in person at Laguna) felt half-hearted about the program. Obvious lack of backing and support. Reading Spencer's interview on RN re: a potential rotary program and what BK has done just shows the difference between someone committed at heart to rotary technology/development and a program that seems indifferent to what powers the car.

BOOSTD 7

Well, duh

Senna

So from another standpoint someone hired those engineers who couldn't solve a water pump problem. What are their names and who did the hiring? If we really want to place responsibility why hold back now.
When you look at the P2 Porsche teams one man is ultimately held accountable for their success or demise-Penske!! So who was making the big bucks and calling the shots and what credibility did he have. Where does the buck stop??

BOOSTD 7

Come on Fred, seriously ... I've seen people get 1050hp at the wheels out of a two rotor, but I know the difference between that and doing it on a level like ALMS. Try to make that power that power on an intake restricted, cooling limited 2 rotor for 3 hours or more and you might finish 2 races a year. And that's if you don't melt your 105db mandated exhaust first.

rotarygod

I don't think it's so unreasonable. 1000 hp engine and one at half that are monumetally different. It can be done without too much stretch of the imagination. A turbo is very forgiving of a lot of things that a naturally aspirated engine isn't on the intake side. The turbo makes up for it. If this weren't true, no turbo engine could make any power with a restrictor. The turbo really is an equalizer when it comes to inlet restriction. A turbo would also help hold noise down over an n/a rotary by a large margin. I know you've heard a straight header n/a rotary vs a straight downpipe turbo rotary. It's not even a competition. I've heard n/a's with mufflers that were louder than that. Not saying it's quiet though. A turbo also absorbs a lot of heat that would normally go into the muffler. Fortunately with Inconel turbine wheels and ceramic coatings, you can keep them living with the heat now.

If you can cool a 700 hp n/a 4 rotor, you can find a way to cool down a 500 hp turbo 2 rotor. Heat is a function of power. If you could make a 700 hp 4 rotor live for 24 hours and it still had over half of it's life left, the equivalent 2 rotor of that style would be around 350 hp or so. Assuming of course power cut in half with the number of rotors. 150 hp more with a turbo actually isn't that much more stress on the engine. It's less than 50% more stress. Probably closer to about 30% or so. Sounds weird but that's the way it works. Design around this with stronger parts such as those I listed and cool around your power level and you'll be fine. It wouldn't be that hard to do. It just takes someone competent enough to do it. I just don't see what the issue is. You give rotaries and builders far too little credit. I think BK did too.

bern

The reason from one of my previous post:

It's all that development time and money that Mazda can not afford anymore. After a few seasons of bad performance, the clock has run out on the RE... and Mazda was not willing to go for it full-blast with a proper RE engine development program, anymore. Again, little percieved return for much one-off work.

-Bern

rotarygod

They could apparently afford to waste time and money on a second rate team for 2 years before sinking money into a new different effort. I don't buy that as a viable excuse. The team quite frankly isn't competent enough to do it and that's all there is to it.

bern

You're not getting my point... I meant that Mazda did know that they had an issue and were wasting time, and money (not much by the way), and didn't do much to solve the problem or commit with engineering and budget for the RE. But now that they have made the decision to commit big time to ALMS with both budget and engineering, the rotary didn't make the cut in the boardroom... time ran out for the RE, because of the reasons you mention and Mazda's lack of commitment to a full blown program in ALMS, RE or not. The RE was the cheap way to get results in ALMS early-on, but Mazda overstepped it's usefulness and burned it out!

-Bern

rotary crazy

the issue from my point of view is; if you are going racing a half *** effort will give you half *** results, thats what they did with the rotary, and now they are going to do the same, but piston powered?

what we need is a team like RE amemiya, Speed Source or Downing Atlanta begind and ALMS effor.

Im sure if MR.Spencer wants to put a rotary effort togheter he can, there are people that can give him support like CLR, and others, and he does have a shassis maybe 2

Renesis_8

He has two C65 if I remember correctly... which wont be too useful anymore =/
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rotary crazy

he can use them, just put a 2 rotor FI engine and see what happens

Senna

It obviously comes down to dollars but it would be nice to have one of the teams you mentioned run a rotary ALMS program while BK (or preferably someone else) runs the piston deal. Obviously SS is commited elsewhere.

To me if Mazda was really that commited to running the rotary long term they would have found some utility in running a rotary program as well. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

While I'm still a Mazda guy, the decision to drop the rotary has taken a lot of wind out of our sails not just personally but I think from a marketing perception as well.

rotary crazy

some coments here

http://insider.speedtv.com/viewtopic.php?t=138799

Renesis_8

The change to the new chassis and engine is giving the general public a good impression. But just how "serious" is Mazda on this? Developing a DISI head?, this could be all they're doing. And BK buying the chassis from Lola and engine from AER, with funds from MazdaUSA of course.
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rotary crazy

it looks like the general public its taking this ok

any body knows if the acura engines are really acura?

as bad as I feel about the rotary piston swap, part of me is glad, I wont have to see a badly funded, non competitive car 6 seconds per lap begind the leaders

Renesis_8

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsapril06.html

3.4L Honda V8.
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rotary crazy

Thanks for refreshing my memory