thunderberk

Every car manufacturer is near that risk and Mazda isn't the only one as you remember Nissan made Gtr 35 on that risk and they had an economic and financial problems they have if you are going to wacth mega factories their ceo who decided to produce their new gtr 35 got that risk and produced it.

yomomspimp06

lets face it...the GTR was not much of a gamble. bad example thunderberk

Fender137

I did not want to hear this Terrible New's…

fmzambon

As far as I understand it, the chairman is higher in the hierarchy than the CEO. So if the chairman says "we must have a rotary car available by 2017", then the CEO has no choice but to obey. Right?
I'm not saying that this is what will happen, only that it may happen.

Andrea.

paimon.soror

iTrader: (15)

There was a great article in forbes earlier this year that touched on this after the debacle between gates and ballmer. I'll take a pic when I get home.

Basically, the Chairman has delegated company direction responsibilities to the CEO. This is why it is important that the Chairman and the CEO share the same views and the same direction. Should the CEO make a decision the Chairman doesn't agree with, the chairman then must present the veto to the board, which then the board can vote no confidence in the CEO's direction

yomomspimp06

honestly, the CEO is in the right frame of mind as far as the numbers go. With sustainable profits a pure enthusiast's car like the Rx7 can be made. Well, as long as the company can still post quarterly profits during production of the enthusiast's model.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

The risk of making a new model year of an existing car that has a proven sales record isn't very similar to the risk of a brand new model with a new version of an engine design known for it's unreliability

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Nissan is much bigger than Mazda ...

Nissan can "take the risk", Mazda ? ... after losing money for so many years, they simply CAN NOT afford anymore ****-ups ...

they turn profit mostly because of the recent Yen dropped, unless they can keep making good profits for the next 2-3 years, I just don't see a Rotary coming in 2017.

thunderberk

Has anyone tell me please NC MX-5 sale numbers ? Because NC MX-5 still sale but 1 years ago RX-8 production was end and they are working on new ND MX-5 if they don't have money how can they are working on new rwd platform with Alfa ?

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Sales numbers were posted earlier in the thread. The ND has been in production for quite a long time. It was originally supposed to be out last year. The financial difficulties pushed that back quite a few years. MX-5 sales are UP though. It's also using an engine that is already in production and is selling like hot cakes, design can go into the chassis, rather than trying to get the engine to work.

Not the same thing at all.


And they are not "working on it with Alfa". Mazda is designing it, and had already designed most of it when Alpha thought: "We need another roadster, how about we see if we can buy the MX-5 off Mazda?" It's a pure cash flow, Alpha has very limited say in the MX-5 design, and it's going to be assembled in Hiroshima. It's a slam dunk for Mazda, since it basically means that they have already sold the first 10,000+ cars.

Again, not the same thing.

MattMPS

100% agree with that.

Just a question:

for revive a rotary engine is not possible to use it mated with a serial hybrid (and a multi speed dual clutch tranny) and place it into hi-end models of "normal" mazda (example: top spec 6, a future cx9 etc..) instead a v6 piston?

and use it "stand alone" in an mx5 or a coupè version (rx-7?-5?)

not economically suistainable?

Icky Mettle

Miata sales have slowed to a trickle. A little over 6k units for 2013. Not especially good. There has been a marked yearly decline since its 1989 production. The Miata is cheap to build and has become more synonymous with the Mazda brand than the rotary ever was. That said, it won't be going anywhere for a long time. You have to remember, Mazda and Alfa have entered into a mutually beneficial partnership. This keeps financial outlay fairly low since both sides are essentially getting something they want from the other. It's not nearly as dicey a proposition as you've framed it, since there is no one single aspect of the forthcoming Miata and Alfa variant that would require "reinventing the wheel", so to say. A new rotary, on the other hand, would require a fundamental rethinking to even be considered viable.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Matt, I expect that your example IS what is going to happen. They have been exploring use of the rotary as part of a hybrid drivetrain for a long time, and they are continuing that. I wouldn't be shocked at all to hear that they have a tiny version of the 16x being tested for just this purpose, maybe 800cc total?

It's obviously not what we want specifically, but it keeps the development and the technology progression alive until it reaches the point that they can upsize it back to a primary powerplant in a sports car again.


I'd also lay money that if Mazda releases a vehicle (even something like a hybrid bus) that uses a rotary as a generator, there are going to be people ripping the motor out to stick in a light chassis to go have fun with.

MP3Guy

I don't know why you would say that. The BRZ is faster 0-60 (although the RX was never that fast off launch) and I haven't heard one bad thing about it's driving dynamics. The only complaint I've heard is that it's not fast enough, but again, with Toyota stuffing 286 HP into a Camry, the game has changed quite a bit since 2003.

At this price point, in this economy, a LOT of people are sensitive to fuel costs- or being forced to top up about twice a week, which is one thing I never really liked.

As a 2+2 in the mid $20's, I think the BRZ aims at the same audience, IMHO. When I look at one, I'm reminded of the RX-8.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

The 0-60 times are almost identical depending on what source you use and the RX-8 is a lot faster in the 1/4 mile (1+ second is huge) and has a higher top speed. And mid 20's? For an FRS maybe but not a BRZ. My buddy ordered one, it was almost 30k.

Lost to a 2006 Auto RX-8,

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19227

WTBRotary!

iTrader: (6)

The BRZ/FRS is not faster... Stock WHP numbers are around 155-160 for the BRZ/FRS (Confirmed by me in person when they came out, Cobb Tuning in Plano dyno'd both BRZ/FRS back to back and they put down 155-160WHP). Stock RX-8's put down roughly 180-190WHP. After driving both my 8 and both of my friends FRS's, I can confirm the RX8 is faster

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

No doubt the dynamics of the BRZ/FRS are good, but it's not better in any way (okay maybe gas mileage if you care about that) than the RX-8 that is a 10+ year old platform.

djgiron

I actually think a sport hybrid setup is ideal, better gas mileage and torque are exactly what the Rx needs, and due to the compact size of the motor it is perfect.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, there are a lot of different ways that hybrid based technology could make an entirely viable rotary sports car again, without killing the "sports car" aspect to it. It's only a matter of time before every car produced has some level of hybrid tech in it, and people will always be finding ways to leverage that to go faster.

MP3Guy

The numbers don't lie- in terms of 0-60 and 1/4 mile times, both cars are clustered around the same figures. Everyone gets somewhat different results, but you're looking at two cars that essentially go 0-60 in the low 6s (at best) and 1/4 mile times in the low 15s, also at best. Doesn't matter how they dyno in two different cars.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Probably getting sidetracked here... I believe there are a few other threads discussing the comparisons between the RX-8 and FR-S/BRZ

HiFlite999

iTrader: (2)

IMO, the rotary is probably dead, except perhaps as a range-extender or small-production halo car. Even as a halo car, far more people, assuming they've even heard of a rotary, associate it with bad things. The 1% who can afford such things, are far more interested in the social status and expensive car brings, than the car itself. And nothing from Mazda will ever have that kind of status power.

Even among those who can afford any kind of new car, interest in sports cars is minimal, and falling. Why? They are getting old, traffic sucks, etc. Driving for fun is a dying concept.

For a range-extender, the rotary does have some promise. Optimized for that duty, it could be small, light, and more efficient than what's in my Volt, for example. OTOH, Volt production to date totals 50,000 cars. Even with tax breaks, rebates and such, it's 50% more expensive than the Cruze. A purpose-built rotary for that application will add to the already too-high purchase price of PHEVs. (Of which, the Volt and the upcoming BMW i3 are the only present examples in production).

BTW, it costs me $0.18/mile to run my RX-8 vs $0.02/mile for the Volt on electricity.

MP3Guy

That is the point of the word "successor." To me, the car fills the same slot in terms of the performance envelope/Price/seating.

fmzambon

Actually, it doesn't seem like the financial situation is that bad for Mazda, as their net income for the current fiscal year is better than expected.

Looking here, since 2009, they lost a total of about 240 billions of Yen in net income, last year they gained back 34 billions, and the revised forecast for the net income of the current year is plus 100 billions. It doesn't look bad at all. Especially if you consider that their best selling models, the 3 and the 2, haven't been renewed yet (the 3 is not yet on sale).
I fully expect them to recoup the whole loss of these years by march 2015.

And their stock value, after reaching a minimum of slightly more than 1$ per share in late 2012, is back up to over 4.5$ per share. Another year like the second half of 2013 would bring that to around 6$. The pre-crisis price was around 7$

And what about the r&d money that was already spent on the rotary in these years? As far as we know, the engine may be ready or almost ready for production as we speak (type?). After all they said back in 2010 that the 16x got better mileage than the then current (i.e. non Skyactiv) 2.0 engine (source). That was in 2010. So they must have spent considerable r&d money on the rotary just as the crisis was at its worst. It would make no sense to drop it now.

In the end, yes I still think that there will be a new rotary (and I'm not talking hybrid or the like, I mean a purely rotary powered car) and the 2017 date still seems very likely to me. Call me optimist if you want .

Andrea.

MattMPS

yes....

i'm still a little bit disappointed about this Tokyo MS....no one concept (even not a production ready one) for displaying something like that....

we must wait for some year, i suppose....

but the statement of the new CEO is not a good signal