playdoh43

well i dont think the difference in quality is a direct result of being built buy Japanese workers or by American workers... I mean yeah in general Japanese's culture does have a big emphasis on putting everything one has at a task while Americans are more about getting by... (dont deny it, you guys know its tru :p) that however have very little impact on the overall quality of cars.

Like mentioned above, Japanese people can also build terrible cars, death traps even... if you look at Mitsubishi.

IMO the difference in quality is a result of corporate culture from the top down. Toyota is just great at being strict about quality and have a great corporate culture where employees and management generally care about the wellbeing of the company and their repuation. as a result Toyota builds great cars in America.

Most american companies dosnt have that type of corporate culture. I dont think it has to do with where the car is being built, but about the overall heath of the organization's structure, facilities and its culture.

As it currently stands, IMO it is sort of true that cars build in japan generally have a higher quality, but thats not due to Japanese vs American workers...
One thing that is worth pointing out though is that Japanese companies employ a lot more robotic technologies than American companies, where theres a much greater number of parts being assembled by hand.

ASH8

PS::When referring to the quality of Japanese made cars I am talking about how they are finished, the fit of body panels and gaps, the fit of trims, paintwork, ergonomics of the interior and engine bay ,no fluid leaks, and the reliability/ performance and longevity of their cars.

You can read what you want, its what owners think, see and touch.

4thGen

According to the JD Power research over the last few years, owners here perceive Toyota/Lexus vehicles to have quality high enough to rank them in the top 3. Certainly in general Asian branded vehicles have higher quality than their counterparts, but all I'm saying is that it has more to do with the way a company like Toyota or Honda manages its plants rather than the workers themselves. Whether Mazda decides to take over Ford plants will not in and of itself diminish the perceived quality of the vehicles. What will dictate their quality will be the way those plants are being managed.

playdoh43

exactly. its how the US plan are run that matters the most, not the type of worker.
Nissan came to the US and did a pretty bad job with thie Ohio plants. Quality for the Nissan Murano and QX56 is abismal. Honda and Toyota on the otherhand are able to maintain a high quality in their North American Plants.

bascho

I am sure that I was not the first to think of that idea. Since Ford is involved in all decisions made at Mazda, I have no doubt they offered that cost effective alternative up in the board room. It only makes sense to take advantage of plant assets which have already been paid for and are awaiting use.

zoom44

exactly!

ASH8

Again you are referring to a particular brand of Japanese (name) vehicle.

My comments relate to the overall performance and QC of Japanese made cars exported to the US and Australia.
We here have the same Japanese brand plants too...Toyota, Mitsubishi with all the high tech plant and equipment.

At the moment, you will not convince me the auto worker has little input into the overall QC of the vehicle it makes, sure automation controls many of the mundane/dirty manufacturing and assembly tasks, but in the end its the guy on the shop line that has the control over the QC of his tasks, and of course SOP assigned by management has a great input into what happens.

A Japanese Auto worker still has a lot more pride/care in the tasks they perform when compared to Australian and American counterparts.

We both agree that its because of manufacturing/management systems like Toyota US and others that produce a well made cars, it is also an indictment on GM and Ford that they and their workers have had to go kicking and screaming to change their workplace practices into the 21st century, until they do they will continue to lose market share.

I am not sure here, did not Mazda originally designed and built your Flat Rock plant in the 1980s (it was "state of the art at the time"), then Ford bought a larger slice of Mazda, a downturn in sales/production in Mazda's US plant in the early 90s, Ford renamed and took control of it. Today they make your Mazda 6 there, is that about how it is?
.
If Mazda US are thinking of another manufacturing plant, I am not sure about using the old closing Ford plants, they would by somewhat archaic in design and manufacturing equipment. I think it would be cheaper to build on a clean new site from the ground up.

zoom44

thats the rub isnt it- which is cheaper updating or just raizing the facility and build from scratch?

often it is from scratch thats actually cheaper

ASH8

What mate...whats rubisnt it????

But yeah,,,I agree,, demolish the place and start again...far cheaper....put in the latest plant and facilities.... that's the GO!

bascho

The plants selected for closure are not being closed because they have an archaic design or old and out-of-date equipment....they are being closed because the vehicle lines at those facilities are either being discontinued like the LS, Thunderbird, Taurus, Sable, and soon the Town Car......or the that plant is a redundant line to a better plant such as the case for the Explorer/Mountaineer/Sport trac. Several of these plants have rec'd millions of dollars for facility and equipment updates. Believe me, Ford would love to keep this plants open....but decreasing market share has created an over-capacity situation. Even though Ford has spent millions updating a plant, they have to close it to save millions in loss from keeping it idle. Believe me, Mazda would save Millions converting an existing plant over building from scratch. Remember, a plant needs infrastructure to even operate. Railroad lines, highway systems, carriers in close proximity, suppliers in close proximity, etc. I don't know if you have ever lived anywhere near an assy plant.....but the plant itself is at the center of a hundred other businesses that surround it, catering to it's every need. Look at the plant the Hyundai built in Alabama or the one Toyota built in Texas.....it takes billions to launch a plant from scratch.

ASH8

Really?

If the Ford plant is such a modern and up to date facility as you say I doubt it very much that Ford would close it because a particular "Model" is no longer selling, they would use it for models that are... even you say they have a "better" plant used for the Explorer.

Yes, they may have spent millions in upgrades, but, thats from a very low base...they needed to!!...Would Mazda want to use such a plant??

To answer your question I have seen and toured facilities in Japan and Australia...

Having experienced the actual environment of car plants and their workers I still stand by my statement.
Having toured the Chrysler Australia plant in my home state in the 70s, now Mitsubishi.
The Mazda plants Hiroshima and Hofu in the 80s and 90s..
Worked very briefly in the Mitsubishi plant in 1999.
The Toyota Australia Altona plant in Melbourne.2002.
Toured the GM- Holden plant also in my home state last year and the Mitsubishi plant here in 05, the Japanese still put more pride in their work, the very latest manufacturing tool and equipment, and a workplace area (floors) that you could eat your lunch off!
From a previous post..

Depending on what "new" plant Ford has in these closed facilities will determin if you demolish or refurbish to 2006 standards...and the $$$s.
In many cases you start again even if it costs $900Mil, there are a lot a variables the determin a sites viability.

bascho

The more modern and sophisticated the plant....the fewer needed. Since the advent of flexible manufacturing lines, these plants are able to produce 5 & 6 completely different vehicles on the same assy line. The # of plants needed is directly proportionate to the # of vehicles sold in a year. If you are only selling 1 million vehicles in a year (not true #) and your standard plant makes 200,000 units in a year at full capacity, then you only need 5 plants. Well what happens when you have 8?? You cannot control how many vehicles will sell....but you can control how many you make.

I cannot speak intelligently about assembly plants outside of the US, but I have visited 5 different US plants and they are all immaculate, sophisticated facilities. Again, they are not being closed because they are old and decrepit.....they're lots of factors that come into play, the vehicle line disappearing is only one of them.

That is a huge assumption....you have never visited any of the plants scheduled for closure. By the way, where is your assumption of Japanese superiority coming from? Just because a Japanese worker may have more corporate pride or attention to quality than a American worker, that has nothing to do with the facility itself. The US assembly plants are top notch and world-class. Union labor is a whole other story that I will not get into, because it just gets me angry and I go on a rant.

Obviously you have never had any Operational Management courses in college. Refurbishing an existing plant would be cheaper by far. Remember, the physical building is a small part of an assembly plants infrastructure. Modern buildings can be erected for a small investment. Tooling is changed for every design change so it's always the newest available. You keep mentioning building 'fresh' in a 'new location'......I don't think you have any clue what that would involve.

ASH8

Oh please now who is assuming!!!

You can believe what you want and you are entilted to your opinion..as I..

Markets determin outcomes, the Japanese "superiority"as you put it reflects the fact that over the last 35 years their automotive expertise and products have taken over...World wide.....

Why I agree with much of what you say, BTW I never said that the facility was decrepit, just IMO out of date...and that includes the workforce..... I recall recently here on the news where GM USA were spending more money on free health care for its workers per year than what it costs them in sheet metal for their cars!!...My God no wonder they are/were going broke.. this is what I mean out of date work practices by employees, Unions that screw their employer... the story of a worker sacked because he was caught smoking crack in the rest room, only to be reinstated after 3 days because of a threat by the union to strike.
That worker must have a great QC in his job function..

All these costs in the end are passed on to the consumer.

If some US and Australian companies don't change they will fold and workers will be out of a job, because the NEW world order will includes China as they will be the new economic superpower within 15 years, overtaking the US and Japan. Why are so many Australian and US companies going offshore (China) to produce their goods....because of labour costs and workers entitlements.
I hate it too, perhaps what we demand in wages are just too high, would we rather have lower pay cheque (sorry, check) or NO job?

Already within 5 years after establishing a distribution network in China, Mazda are forecast to export more cars (around 1.5mil) per year to China, that's almost as many as Toyota US makes in a year, the growth in China is just phenomenal.....

The question is why has Ford got an oversupply of vehicles in the first place...not selling...why...

Because they are not producing what people want..and as you say too many plants and too many employees.

Ford like GM are too slow to respond to consumer demands, In many cases the "New" vehicles they launch are out of style/demand very quickly, they can't re tool and change quickly enough. And all the associated cost in doing so.

BTW: I will just reply to your last barb....
I have worked for over 30 years in the Automotive industry in retail,wholesale and at a manufacturing level for Mazda and Mitsubishi, and their facilities...
I think I have more of a "clue" than what you think.....

bascho

You have gotten way off track.

I already agreed that the American factory worker is less productive than a Japanese factory worker....reread my last post.

I understand that PD has been lazy with regards to designing vehicles that Americans want. But this has nothing to due with the condition of plant assets: building, equipment, etc. This thread is about the Mazda needing another plant on US soil. I suggested refurbishing a already working plant that has been placed on Ford's plant closure list.

I work in Ford PD and I understand our weaknesses.....our assembly plants are not one of them. Ford takes pride in have some of the most environmentally friendly, socially responsible assembly plants in the world....yes world!

So, although you have great points about the absolutely useless union labor in the US and the less than attractive products coming out of PD for Ford and GM, I was never debating those points. In fact, I support them. Please read all of my responses to your remarks.....I have only defended the Ford plants as financially attractive alternatives to building fresh.