Frynge

...I'm with you! :D

BoosTED

iTrader: (2)

Interesting...

Personally I don't see why Hydrogen is greener other than emissions. It takes more power to split the hydrogen from water than it is worth. If it has a low efficiency for creating it then it is not more economical. If coal is used to power the breakdown then we would actually cause more emissions than burning petrol.

Just my two cents on energy sources.

The other problem is if the Hydrogen storage cell is in an accident what is the potential for an explosion if it is under 40,000 psi of pressure?

Also glad to be reassured that the rotary engine will not be dropped from production cars.

rotary crazy

another thing is that there are going to be 2 rotary power production cars, thats great news

he doest say that there will not be a FI rotary

playdoh43

im very happy to hear that theres plenty of life in the rotory engine

How well will mazda be able to keep up with the joneses? Theres no question that piston engines are constantly and rapidly being improved in power, and efficiency. 300hp used to be reserved for high end sports cars just a few years ago, now the v6 version of camry and altimas are pushing toward that limit all the while getting better gas mileage than their predecessors. Is making the renesis greener with marginal power gain enough for the next generation of rotory engines when they will be compared to the next generation of DFI piston engines?

I understand the special place that the rotary engine enjoys in the heart of RX enthusiasts, but in the sales world they will inevitably be compared to the competition in the segment. When that time comes, how will the next gen rotary engine stack up vs the next gen of piston engines?

Speaking of FI, i think the technology is there to make it happen given some R&D. An important issue is does it make sense from a sales standpoint when the production cost and R&D cost gets passed onto the consumer? How will it affect sales if an FI rx sports car is sold in the low 40k or more corvette price range?

Its a pretty cut throat market, just some food for thought.

DARKMAZ8

As emission and smog laws get more aggressive, I wouldn't be suprised if gas powered 8s will decease in the new car market. I think it'll happen as soon as next year.

MadRonin

Next to none. A tank designed to hold hydrogen at 40,000psi would be more than capable of remaining intact in the event of combustion. Hydrogen doesn't explode like gasoline; it burns very quickly and cleanly. There is a danger that the rest of the car would go up in flame, but no more than a regular car. But before any of that happens you actually have to get the hydrogen to ignite. The most likely result of a tank rupture would be the hydrogen would gas out harmlessly.

Also, just for reference, when the Mythbusters tried to blow up an oxygen tank to replicate the scene at the end of Jaws, they could not get the tank to explode or combust. Oxygen is a lot more volatile than hydrogen.

Tirminyl

I think it will do just fine if they put it in a lighter car and get a bigger budget for R&D.

rotary crazy

or make a bigger engine

saturn

You're clearly not even trying then because I'm serious like 1 time a month.

But since we're on the subject here's a list of things Mazda has done since I've been around that are positive that I've commented on as such: 6-speed auto for 2006, zoom zoom live, new keyless entry system for 2006. I'm sorry if I can't be positive about recalls, ships falling over, mulligan-gate, and them taking away teh coolest color for 2007.

I just don't think this is whole hydrogen thing is useful at all. I'm glad you do. Just because I disagree doesn't mean I'm negative. I think this venture lessens the likelihood of Mazda making a FI RX-8 because they're spending time and money developing the rotary for hydrogen purposes. I could be wrong about that, but that's how I see it and that's why I'm "negative" about this topic.

alfy28

I Agree with yah dark. i mean the world is going to blow up year 2012. so f the emmisions

Renesis_8

At least they're putting R & D into the rotary engine, its not gonna die, it'll stay around.

Its amazing how they always have ways to extract more and more power out of the 13B, its the same displacement from 20 years ago, I believe Mazda has something up their sleeves once again to make it more powerful and advance the rotary technology.

DI will certainly make it into the rotary engine, its in the 2.3L DISI, it was in the concept hydrogen Mazda5, and likely they'll dump the cast iron for better alloys, the added cost could be minimal nowadays. If they could do something to the exhaust ports on the renesis, I believe we could gain a double digit horsepower figure, I might be optimistic here but hey I love the rotary!

Hey RG, I think the added benefit of DI could mean a lot to the renesis, whether its emissions, power or fuel economy, since the fuel/air mix has a lot of area to stick to especially in a rotary combustion chamber, with DI, if they get it right, at least the fuel economy could go up. Also is there anything they could improve in the renesis with DI? i.e do something to the exhaust ports as there is no longer a need to "sweep the unburn fuel back" to the combustion chamber, or something else perhaps, I am not really sure, but do you see where I am going? (like DI leading to improvements of other parts of the renesis, that wasnt possible without it)
________
Horny_N_Sexy cam

rotarygod

I can't think of too many more ways to advance the rotary that much farther than it is now. I;m sure there are ways but I can't think of how right now other than DI and lightening. The exhaust ports do need work but this isn't that much of a stretch to accomplish.

One idea that I have had would actualy make the engine a little more complicated but it could be a good way to progress more. BMW is implementing a piston engine that is camless. Using actuators of some kind they are going to have infinitely (to a point of course) variable valve timing. This will allow them to have valve timing and lift that is perfect for any rpm or load. This would really broaden the powerband, engine response, help emissions, and help fuel consumption. Through this process they are also getting rid of the throttlebody completely. In order to control the airflow into the engine, they are using the valve lift and duration. They will open only enough to get the necessary air into the engine. This is very cool as it is one less time the air has to stop and start. With conventional throttlebody systems we have intake runners that the air changes speed in depending on throttle level and since air acts like a spring, it takes a little while to recover.

How could we apply this to a rotary engine? In a manner similar to the auxiliary ports, we could add a system like this to every intake port. we could then only open them as much as we need them for any given engine speed and could even control throttle level this way. Of course it takes a good ecu to do this but we already have the technology to do it. The Renesis already brings intake runners online as necessary but now we could do the same thing but at the same time also continuously altering the port timing as well. This would boost efficiency. A way to take this farther would require some serious advancements in materials standing up to high heat but it could eventually be applied to the exhaust ports as well.

This is how we could keep rotary engine technology progressing with piston engine technology.

Jedi54

iTrader: (7)

I hope Hisakazu Imaki's people are reading this...
I am very glad to hear that the Rotary Engine still has plenty of life and people standing behind it!

Bummer that the MX-5 guys won't be getting FI any time soon. the last MS miata was lots of fun.

MrWigggles

The emissions thing has been the killer for the RX-8 from the very beginning. Then high gas prices hit and the effect was two-fold for that Rotary.

I am curious. If the RX-8 had been launch a year or even 6 months earlier, would it have had to meet Tier II EPA requirements? (EPA Tier II requirements are Draconian IMO, but that is a different topic.) 2003 was the first year for TIER II (2004 model year), but it seems like a lot of the "2004" models for different auto makers didn't meet TIER II but were grandfathered in.

If the RX-8 had just come out a little earlier, would it have been grandfathered in as well?

-Mr. Wigggles

P.S. For those interested, the FD RX-7 would not meet TIER II by a long shot, neither would most vehicles on the road...

MrWigggles

Here's some reading for those who like trying to figure out government regulations. This is a summary from year 2000 of what it took for a car manufacturer to sell a car in California:

http://www.walshcarlines.com/pdf/l2v...level%20ppm%22

Oh and that's a summary. But to summarize this even further basically cars are create about 1/10th the pollution as they did 10 years ago. And about 1/100th pollution of a car from 20 years ago. By the way, most of the rules in the above PDF have changed.

Modern cars aren't the problem, its the gross-polluters out there that create the majority of the pollution. For the past few years, CARB and to lesser extent the EPA, have continued to beat up on the manufacturers to meet near impossible standards. CARB is trying to make wine from rasins when there are plenty of other ripe grapes around.

And the predicted cost analysis for Catlytic convertors from the 2000 report is laughable. The price of platinum has sky-rocketed.

Oh, btw the clean modern superefficient diesels used in Europe aren't going to make it America either. You can thank Tier II for that as well. Only Mercedes is going offer a diesel vehicle this year and it has something like three catalytic convertors?

Green is great, but it has to make sense. Meeting the regs has cost us the rotary engine - an engine that was perfectly fine a few years ago.

-Mr. Wigggles

BaronVonBigmeat

(The following is going 100% from memory, so I may be remembering something wrong)

One of the benefits of direct injection is that you can run much leaner than you normally would. You can keep the fuel spray concentrated around the spark plug. This is important because a gasoline/air mixture has a relatively narrow fuel:air ratio where it can achieve predictable, controllable combustion. (Hydrogen has a much wider range.) Current gas engines have to throttle the air, because too much air creates combustion problems. This throttling creates drag as the piston fights against a partial vacuum, robbing power. Diesels don't have this problem, which is part of the reason for their higher efficiency.

But you can get away with a super-lean burning engine and eliminate your throttle body or carburetor if you are running a small amount of H2. In the video I mentioned previously, the guy is running gas engines--very lean--on CNG + a little hydrogen. There is no carb or throttle body; he simply has a metal tube delivering the CNG/H2 mixture to each port right by the intake valve. There is no throttling of air, only fuel. At cruising speeds, he's running super lean. When accelerating, he's running richer. There's no need for oxygenate in the fuel, because the engine has plenty of oxygen in the excess air. For gasoline engines it's a little trickier, he replaces the spark plug with an integrated all-in-one spark plug/gas valve to let in hydrogen while leaving the factory fuel system alone.

Mandy

2008? I've already seen 2 on the road. And they're kind of ugly IMO.

rotarygod

You've probably seen a Mazda 5 on the road but you haven't seen a rotary powered one.

rotarygod

I make wine from raisins! They are just insulted grapes!

zoom44

there was an article i read yesterday in the USA today about GM (and honda) are working towards at home Hydrogen filling stations. It uses electrricity to crack the Hydrogen from your Natural Gas supply.n Yes i know th electricity neeeded blah blah blah. IT could be solar powered or at least partially Solar. Any way they want to do this in th enext couple of years and put some fuel cell cars on the road by 2011.

so im going to ask to be a part of that and ask Mazda to let me be a part of the first Hydrogen Rotary Mazda5 group. Combining these two elements is a great first step.

In case you cant tell im a hydrogen fan

rotary crazy

Im all for alternative fuels, as long as it can be made into a fun an fast car

Mandy

oh, ok. that's what I saw then. and they're still ugly. hah

saturn

Hydrogen fuel cells are much different than a hydrogen burning rotary. I would be pleasantly amazed if there are any even remotely practical hydrogen fuel cell based cars on the road by 2011.

ASH8

I thought at the moment Europe actually had the toughest emission laws, I think the RENESIS passes these until 2010.. I am not sure of the USA though.

saturn

The emissions laws in Europe for CO2 are more strict, but not for NOx. This is why (or because) diesel is so prominent there.