Mazda RX-VISION Concepts
#26
Water Foul
In any case, if this is true, and I'm not holding my breath, it looks like I will need a bigger garage. I'll probably wait for the Series 2, though.
#27
40th anniversary Edition
And will you eat your words if and when Mazda introduces the next RX model?
Countless folks before you have signaled and predicted the rotary's doom as a viable powerplant, only to eat their words later as they were thrilled at the latest Mazda rotary introduction. My money is on Mazda and not on you !!!
Countless folks before you have signaled and predicted the rotary's doom as a viable powerplant, only to eat their words later as they were thrilled at the latest Mazda rotary introduction. My money is on Mazda and not on you !!!
#28
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Do you realize that the Ford V6 has an even higher failure rate than the Renesis? It's a horrible engine. So that would be a bad move. Plus the tooling for the RX-8 chassis is gone. There would be a lot of cost to rebuild that. Cheaper to use the ND chassis production line, which we already know they are thinking about due to the comments about reusing the chassis with a scalable RWD platform.
The technical details of emissions and such? Solvable. All anyone has to tell Mazda is that "it's impossible" for them to hunker down and do it anyway. They prove that time and time and time again over the decades. I think they get a kick out of it.
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And will you eat your words if and when Mazda introduces the next RX model?
Countless folks before you have signaled and predicted the rotary's doom as a viable powerplant, only to eat their words later as they were thrilled at the latest Mazda rotary introduction. My money is on Mazda and not on you !!!
Countless folks before you have signaled and predicted the rotary's doom as a viable powerplant, only to eat their words later as they were thrilled at the latest Mazda rotary introduction. My money is on Mazda and not on you !!!
That said, the rotary as a mechanical power plant is already dead.
#30
Just kidding around, but the rotary dead, no way, maybe Mazda will never make another "RX-..." but the rotary is used in more than just consumer automobiles, so if there is a demand, there will be other companies manufacturing them.
#31
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You guys discount the power of someone doing what they want regardless of the consequences, simply because they want to.
I'll only believe that Mazda has given up on the rotary when they actually disband the rotary R+D division ... and they haven't. And if they haven't given up, then the "crazy" engineers, those amazingly inventive and innovative and creative guys with a passion for rotaries ... they will figure it out.
I personally believe that they figured it out a while back, and have just been refining, waiting for Mazda to recover from the global car slump, the tsunami, etc... with the SkyActive cars setting records, Mazda's CAFE score the highest of all manufacturers, and them making record profits, that waiting is getting closer to an end.
It will happen.
I'll only believe that Mazda has given up on the rotary when they actually disband the rotary R+D division ... and they haven't. And if they haven't given up, then the "crazy" engineers, those amazingly inventive and innovative and creative guys with a passion for rotaries ... they will figure it out.
I personally believe that they figured it out a while back, and have just been refining, waiting for Mazda to recover from the global car slump, the tsunami, etc... with the SkyActive cars setting records, Mazda's CAFE score the highest of all manufacturers, and them making record profits, that waiting is getting closer to an end.
It will happen.
#32
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To be clear though, I don't ever believe anything motoring.au reports
They will eventually stumble on reporting something that just so happens to coincide with Mazda's actual release of information, but it will be chance. It won't erase their years and years of unsubstantiated smoke blowing reporting.
They will eventually stumble on reporting something that just so happens to coincide with Mazda's actual release of information, but it will be chance. It won't erase their years and years of unsubstantiated smoke blowing reporting.
#33
1% evil, 99% hot gas.
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Filling my life and my cars with LSx engines would bring me more HP, more torque, more reliability, more hop-up parts, lower costs, better economy, and hot chicks. But I'm a rotard and can't quit Wankeling myself. I've owned a half-dozen SA22Cs (still have several in the barnyard), two FDs including a CYM R1, and I absolutely love the brilliant-handling RX-8. But the Laws of Physics cannot be subverted by wishes and dreams and hopes and ponies.
OMG PONIES!
It will take serious science and engineering to overcome the ever-present problems with emissions and economy. Not there yet, as demonstrated by the fact there is no production rotary, no prototype rotary has been shown since 2007, and no concept car has been shown with a rotary since then either.
Mazda, keep doing what you're doing and putting money in the bank. Then, please build a light, fun, cheap RWD coupe that beats the pants off every overweight, overpriced pretender out there. If it's Wankel powered I will kiss your feet. If it's V6 or Turbo-4 powered I will persevere and still kick pretentious *** on the track. Thank you.
#34
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While I don't agree with gwilliam's reasoning...
Low sales ended the RX-8 production, and expected emissions standards kept it from immediately coming back, and then the global car industry slump and the tsunami happened. I agree that the rotary will not be a money maker for Mazda. It is because of this reason that Mazda couldn't put out one while they were losing money every quarter. It simply wasn't possible, they were fighting to stay afloat. Now that they are setting record profits, that isn't the problem any more. However, it takes time to get that re-started and going. A car design and release doesn't happen overnight. It's only been ... 18 months? since they got back into the black.
The design and engineering isn't the problem, money has been the problem. Mazda has already discussed publicly a solution for every emissions problem with the rotary (aluminum engine, better sealing, greater eccentricity, narrower rotors, award winning cat technology, higher compression, direct injection ... and that is all before the crazier ideas talked about like laser ignition or alternate options like hybrids), and already made a statement that they had an iteration that was just as clean as piston engines. It takes money, and then time (in that order) to get that to production.
Actually, not true. A prototype rotary was shown in 2013: Rotary Engine Lives On In Range-Extended Electric Mazda 2 Prototype
Full powerplant? No, of course not. But it IS a prototype rotary, proof that they are still working on designs. And no, the fact that it isn't a full powerplant is not proof that they don't have a full power plant one available.
The design and engineering isn't the problem, money has been the problem. Mazda has already discussed publicly a solution for every emissions problem with the rotary (aluminum engine, better sealing, greater eccentricity, narrower rotors, award winning cat technology, higher compression, direct injection ... and that is all before the crazier ideas talked about like laser ignition or alternate options like hybrids), and already made a statement that they had an iteration that was just as clean as piston engines. It takes money, and then time (in that order) to get that to production.
Actually, not true. A prototype rotary was shown in 2013: Rotary Engine Lives On In Range-Extended Electric Mazda 2 Prototype
Full powerplant? No, of course not. But it IS a prototype rotary, proof that they are still working on designs. And no, the fact that it isn't a full powerplant is not proof that they don't have a full power plant one available.
#35
It will take serious science and engineering to overcome the ever-present problems with emissions and economy. Not there yet, as demonstrated by the fact there is no production rotary, no prototype rotary has been shown since 2007, and no concept car has been shown with a rotary since then either.
Instead of recyling anything from Renesis or 16x it was even a newly developed engine used in a test fleet of 100 cars, so this is a proof for the existence of the Mazda rotary team.
#37
#38
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Nice! Thanks. Interesting combination of old and new as it appears to be a peri-port intake (side ports look blocked) and a single side-port exhaust.
Also not the prime-mover for the Mazda 2 EV.
I stand by the statement that without a major breakthrough we will never see another rotary-powered sports car. If I'm wrong I'll be at the front of the line with fists full of money.
Also not the prime-mover for the Mazda 2 EV.
I stand by the statement that without a major breakthrough we will never see another rotary-powered sports car. If I'm wrong I'll be at the front of the line with fists full of money.
#39
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So if they solve the emissions thing, and even if they can't increase power beyond ~250hp... what makes you say that it won't happen? The competition? The perceived "low power"?
If you look at the 2016 Miata. It's 12hp (7.2%) less peak power than the outgoing model, and also ~7.6% light than the outgoing model. When the numbers were introduced people boo-hooed it like crazy. But come to find out that because of the engineering involved, especially low end torque, the 2016 ND is a full second faster 0-60 than the outgoing 2015 NC. And that's with a peak of 100whp less than what they can already easily do with a rotary.
So even at 250hp, with more torque from the greater eccentricity, even if an extended wheelbase bumps curb weight to ~2,600... it's definitely going to be very quick, quicker than the numbers would suggest. Actually, it would be the fastest production car Mazda ever produced, and by a large margin. That is actually very un-Mazda like. And because of that, I could even see them using a not-extended ~2,300lb chassis for the rotary, and a detuned rotary down to ~200hp to dramatically improve longevity, and it would still be much faster than the RX-8.
So what is it exactly that makes you say that "it won't happen"?
If you look at the 2016 Miata. It's 12hp (7.2%) less peak power than the outgoing model, and also ~7.6% light than the outgoing model. When the numbers were introduced people boo-hooed it like crazy. But come to find out that because of the engineering involved, especially low end torque, the 2016 ND is a full second faster 0-60 than the outgoing 2015 NC. And that's with a peak of 100whp less than what they can already easily do with a rotary.
So even at 250hp, with more torque from the greater eccentricity, even if an extended wheelbase bumps curb weight to ~2,600... it's definitely going to be very quick, quicker than the numbers would suggest. Actually, it would be the fastest production car Mazda ever produced, and by a large margin. That is actually very un-Mazda like. And because of that, I could even see them using a not-extended ~2,300lb chassis for the rotary, and a detuned rotary down to ~200hp to dramatically improve longevity, and it would still be much faster than the RX-8.
So what is it exactly that makes you say that "it won't happen"?
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I doubt it will happen with a rotary providing the primary mechanical drive (i.e. not hybrid range extender) for two main reasons:
1) Major issues in the core design principle of the rotary.
2) The small, light sportscar market has shrunk incredibly. What do we have left going forward? MX-5, Toyobaru Twins, and...? There's no S2000, no MR-2, the next Z-car looks like it's going to be a "Sports Crossover". Where's the next 240sx? Where's the GM Kappa platorm?
I'm guessing that the only reason the rotary R&D team haven't been disbanded is because of the EV range extender idea.
1) Major issues in the core design principle of the rotary.
2) The small, light sportscar market has shrunk incredibly. What do we have left going forward? MX-5, Toyobaru Twins, and...? There's no S2000, no MR-2, the next Z-car looks like it's going to be a "Sports Crossover". Where's the next 240sx? Where's the GM Kappa platorm?
I'm guessing that the only reason the rotary R&D team haven't been disbanded is because of the EV range extender idea.
#42
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Neither of your reasons are actually reasons?
Point #1 makes an assumption that technology can't advance, which is obvious incorrect
Point #2 is pointing at something that literally has zero basis on Mazda. There wasn't a roadster market either in 1990... and that didn't stop them from making the best selling roadster of all time.
Point #1 makes an assumption that technology can't advance, which is obvious incorrect
Point #2 is pointing at something that literally has zero basis on Mazda. There wasn't a roadster market either in 1990... and that didn't stop them from making the best selling roadster of all time.
#43
Water Foul
And will you eat your words if and when Mazda introduces the next RX model?
Countless folks before you have signaled and predicted the rotary's doom as a viable powerplant, only to eat their words later as they were thrilled at the latest Mazda rotary introduction. My money is on Mazda and not on you !!!
Countless folks before you have signaled and predicted the rotary's doom as a viable powerplant, only to eat their words later as they were thrilled at the latest Mazda rotary introduction. My money is on Mazda and not on you !!!
I wonder if one of those newfangled engines could be made to work in my 8? It's first engine should be ragged out right about then...
#44
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While I'm loathe to suggest it, a rotary/electric hybrid might be a good solution if Musk is willing to sell packs from his gigafactory (can't say that word without thinking of the Gigashadow, lol!). The rotary lacks low-end torque (not that I've ever cared), while electric motors have all their torque at the low end. Sandwich the two together in a parallel hybrid through a traditional manual transmission, bolt a 5+ KWh battery in, and solve the low-end torque non-problem and maybe actually the economy and emissions problems.
#45
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With Mazda making record profits, there is plenty of financial room for a car that doesn't make a profit. If it's a break even on the car, they could still do it with $5 in profit a year. There is plenty of room. Politics have no impact against it. CAFE score has plenty of room, since Mazda is leading all manufacturers in the score.
The fact that Mazda isn't huge is something in favor of it, not against it. The huge companies are the ones that wouldn't even consider doing this at all. Or do it like Toyota did, and make a really limited run just to show off, price it where no one that will actually drive it can buy it, and then sit back and watch the magazines for glowing reviews. Mazda can't afford to do that. But they CAN afford to make a rotary that is accessible to everyone, in lower volume, even if it is at a loss. It's all about volume there. The volume just can't be so much that it cripples the company. But it can certainly be allowed to soak up some of their profits.
It's totally doable.
While I'm loathe to suggest it, a rotary/electric hybrid might be a good solution if Musk is willing to sell packs from his gigafactory (can't say that word without thinking of the Gigashadow, lol!). The rotary lacks low-end torque (not that I've ever cared), while electric motors have all their torque at the low end. Sandwich the two together in a parallel hybrid through a traditional manual transmission, bolt a 5+ KWh battery in, and solve the low-end torque non-problem and maybe actually the economy and emissions problems.
2011 Porsche 911 GT3 R Hybrid 2.0 Race Car First Drive ? Porsche Hybrid Race Car Drive ? RoadandTrack.com
THAT's a hybrid I would totally love driving
#46
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It's totally doable.
#47
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Just an illustration. It won't be 50% even if it is a losing model. It would be relatively simple to ensure that any losses stay within manageable and acceptable ranges.
It wouldn't surprise me if the next rotary is a money maker. It also wouldn't surprise me if it isn't. I'm not counting them out on anything.
It wouldn't surprise me if the next rotary is a money maker. It also wouldn't surprise me if it isn't. I'm not counting them out on anything.
#49
Mazda high-ups keep shutting down any idea of an MX-5 ND coupe, and won't even commit to a hardtop for a pseudo coupe, which makes me think maybe, just maybe there is a chance at a new RX.
The 16X already seemed to have impressive features way back when, it's been 8 years since that unveiling, surely they've improved here and there with a constant ~30 ish person engineering team.
Any new Mazda rotary is going to get my money for sure. I am extremely satisfied with my RX-8, I actually get irritated when I have to drive other cars, even sports cars.
The absolute best part about any new Mazda RX (apart from the wankel of course) is you can bet it'll have a 3 pedals option. R35 GTR, NSX, FT-1?... zzzZZzz boring
I would wager we will indeed get a new RX. Maybe not this year, but before the end of the decade I'd say is near certain. I also want to add that the CX-3 is coming soon. The CUV turds are huge money makers in the states, and Mazda is already doing pretty well. Plus the new CX-7 (9?) after that
The 16X already seemed to have impressive features way back when, it's been 8 years since that unveiling, surely they've improved here and there with a constant ~30 ish person engineering team.
Any new Mazda rotary is going to get my money for sure. I am extremely satisfied with my RX-8, I actually get irritated when I have to drive other cars, even sports cars.
The absolute best part about any new Mazda RX (apart from the wankel of course) is you can bet it'll have a 3 pedals option. R35 GTR, NSX, FT-1?... zzzZZzz boring
I would wager we will indeed get a new RX. Maybe not this year, but before the end of the decade I'd say is near certain. I also want to add that the CX-3 is coming soon. The CUV turds are huge money makers in the states, and Mazda is already doing pretty well. Plus the new CX-7 (9?) after that
Last edited by SpaceCaptainSteve; 09-22-2015 at 10:25 PM.
#50
40th anniversary Edition
Thanks guys for speaking up with hard facts and good reasoning to back up my passion and Mazda's track record of improving and keeping the rotary alive through every new emissions standard , every engineering hurdle, and corporate cafe quota since 1967. Some of you are too young to be believers and others are too blind to recognize Mazda's uniqueness in the way they see cars and put drivers and pure driving first, above all else. Its Mazda smallness and niche building that allow it to think outside the box of the minds of the big car companies. That is why Toyota wants to partner with Mazda. Mazda is punching far above its weight, and as long as they can continue record profits they WILL have the money to make that next rotary.
Sure the worldwide car market is always evolving and competition is tough, but the spirit of the folks at Mazda will always be to innovate and advance technologies and to be a leader, not a follower.
A new RX with improved fuel economy, improved emissions, ignition , lightweight and powerful will always have a market and buyers. I have counted on Mazda to re-imagine and reinvent its baby (as only it can) for the past 43 years I have been driving rotaries , and Mazda has never let me down.
One quote from a recent Car and Driver comparison test of small SUVs: "It’s this insistence on perfection in all things big and small that gives the CX-3 the win; its maker’s sixth straight comparison-test victory. We’re witnessing the birth of a new dominant species all right—not necessarily the subcompact crossover, but Mazda. "
This is the company that has the will and the vision to pull of another RX. Bring it on !
Sure the worldwide car market is always evolving and competition is tough, but the spirit of the folks at Mazda will always be to innovate and advance technologies and to be a leader, not a follower.
A new RX with improved fuel economy, improved emissions, ignition , lightweight and powerful will always have a market and buyers. I have counted on Mazda to re-imagine and reinvent its baby (as only it can) for the past 43 years I have been driving rotaries , and Mazda has never let me down.
One quote from a recent Car and Driver comparison test of small SUVs: "It’s this insistence on perfection in all things big and small that gives the CX-3 the win; its maker’s sixth straight comparison-test victory. We’re witnessing the birth of a new dominant species all right—not necessarily the subcompact crossover, but Mazda. "
This is the company that has the will and the vision to pull of another RX. Bring it on !
Last edited by gwilliams6; 09-22-2015 at 11:08 PM.